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Old 01-15-2011, 08:12 AM   #26
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
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Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
Mark

I must have previously missed this thread. You are correct that Ken Williams Sensei was the first student of Aikido in the UK with Kenshiro Abbe Sensei. The British Aikido community owe a great deal to the efforts of Williams Sensei in those early days.

Tohei Sensei never visited the Hut Dojo.

I have no axe to grind with Mr Muspratt, I have never seen any claims by him that I would dispute.
I would though dispute Grahams claim that Mr Muspratt was training at the Hut Dojo in " the beginning "..( 1955 ).I personally have no memory of Mr Muspratt training at the Hut Dojo, I don't doubt that he may well have visited in the 60s.. I do remember Foster Sensei visiting the small dojo in Watford of Mr Muspratt..

Kenshiro Abbe Sensei invited several teachers from France to visit the UK, Tadashi Abe 1958? ~ Mikoto Nakazono 1960 ? M Noro 1963.

I looked at the said photo, I did not recognise anyone other than Tohei Sensei. The dojo looks rather nice and modern, where as the Hut Dojo looked more like ``Stalag 17 ``

I am sorry to say Graham, having watched your video, I can assure that Mr Muspratt would not have learned any of that from the Hut Dojo and the instructors there.

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/
Hi Henry. I have since found that the photograph with Tohei Sensei was a summer camp, and as he always told us the history of Aikido in England, mentioning the hut I assumed he had trained there, maybe right, maybe wrong, but nonetheless he was around involved in the scene during the time of Abe Sensei and was indeed trained by Noro Sensei.

I personally have his original printed out curriculum from the seventies of his own Aikido group which is based on shin shin toitsu. On the top left of the document it says through 'AIKI-KAI of watford. Across the top of the page it reads Aikido harmony-spirit-way.

He later named his Aikido Zen Shin Kan Aikido of which I also have copies of the curriculum complete with criteria for examination from 5th kyu to sandan.

He also had criteria for advancement.

The criteria for examination was divided into four columns:
RANK. REQUIRED HOURS. REQUIRED BASIC TECHNIQUES. OPTIONAL TECHNIQUES CALLED FOR BY INSTRUCTOR.

The criteria for advancement had five columns:
RANK. AGE. REQUIRED HOURS. UNIFICATION OF MIND AND BODY. KI DEVELOPEMENT EXERCISES.

This should give you a basic understanding of what he was about and which direction he took and where his main influences come from.
Regards. G.
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Old 01-15-2011, 09:31 AM   #27
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,219
United Kingdom
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Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
Mark

I must have previously missed this thread. You are correct that Ken Williams Sensei was the first student of Aikido in the UK with Kenshiro Abbe Sensei. The British Aikido community owe a great deal to the efforts of Williams Sensei in those early days.

Tohei Sensei never visited the Hut Dojo.

I have no axe to grind with Mr Muspratt, I have never seen any claims by him that I would dispute.
I would though dispute Grahams claim that Mr Muspratt was training at the Hut Dojo in " the beginning "..( 1955 ).I personally have no memory of Mr Muspratt training at the Hut Dojo, I don't doubt that he may well have visited in the 60s.. I do remember Foster Sensei visiting the small dojo in Watford of Mr Muspratt..

Kenshiro Abbe Sensei invited several teachers from France to visit the UK, Tadashi Abe 1958? ~ Mikoto Nakazono 1960 ? M Noro 1963.

I looked at the said photo, I did not recognise anyone other than Tohei Sensei. The dojo looks rather nice and modern, where as the Hut Dojo looked more like ``Stalag 17 ``

I am sorry to say Graham, having watched your video, I can assure that Mr Muspratt would not have learned any of that from the Hut Dojo and the instructors there.

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/
Hi Henry,

Having spent many hours in the pub (post practice tradition) with Sensei Williams, I have heard many tales of 'the early days' and Abbe Sensei in particular, who to this day is still spoken of with great affection and respect by him. Also, all the visiting Japanese Sensei were appreciated for the skill they brought over and shared with the early pioneers of the art in the UK.

I'm also aware of 'some' of the politics that lead the the Aikido scene being quite messy in the UK once Abbe Sensei returned to Japan. Probably inevitable, as nothing stays the same and anything that grows with numbers of individuals, is bound to have tensions inherent in whatever system they follow.

As far as I understand things, although Ken Williams had a great deal of input into the promotion and spreading of (as you did yourself) the art of Aikido in the UK. However, there came a point where he set up his own Federation, after leaving Tohei Sensei, and has little to do with the wider world of British Aikido ever since (well over 30 odd years).

Having read some of the material you have posted on your very informative site, particularly regarding the BAB, Im not surprised that he is happy to be a loner, away from all that nonsense.

Anyway, I feel very fortunate to have recieved the teaching I have. I owe a debt of gratitude to all of the early teachers that got Aikido off the ground over here.

regards

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 01-15-2011, 09:48 AM   #28
Hellis
Dojo: Ellis Schools of Traditional Aikido
Location: Bracknell
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 597
England
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Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Hi Henry. I have since found that the photograph with Tohei Sensei was a summer camp, and as he always told us the history of Aikido in England, mentioning the hut I assumed he had trained there, maybe right, maybe wrong, but nonetheless he was around involved in the scene during the time of Abe Sensei and was indeed trained by Noro Sensei.

I personally have his original printed out curriculum from the seventies of his own Aikido group which is based on shin shin toitsu. On the top left of the document it says through 'AIKI-KAI of watford. Across the top of the page it reads Aikido harmony-spirit-way.

He later named his Aikido Zen Shin Kan Aikido of which I also have copies of the curriculum complete with criteria for examination from 5th kyu to sandan.

He also had criteria for advancement.

The criteria for examination was divided into four columns:
RANK. REQUIRED HOURS. REQUIRED BASIC TECHNIQUES. OPTIONAL TECHNIQUES CALLED FOR BY INSTRUCTOR.

The criteria for advancement had five columns:
RANK. AGE. REQUIRED HOURS. UNIFICATION OF MIND AND BODY. KI DEVELOPEMENT EXERCISES.

This should give you a basic understanding of what he was about and which direction he took and where his main influences come from.
Regards. G.
Graham

In the beginning there were only 5 dan grades for Aikido in the whole of the UK, they were all at the Hut Dojo, later this became 8 dan grades...those dan grades did a great deal to promote Aikido across the UK.....As we travelled we brought along many other students/ teachers who also worked hard to promote Aikido.
In my lifetime I have seen Aikido spread from just one dojo to probably every town in Britain, quite an achievement...
Regards

Henry Ellis
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/
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Old 01-15-2011, 10:23 AM   #29
Hellis
Dojo: Ellis Schools of Traditional Aikido
Location: Bracknell
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 597
England
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Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
Hi Henry,

Having spent many hours in the pub (post practice tradition) with Sensei Williams, I have heard many tales of 'the early days' and Abbe Sensei in particular, who to this day is still spoken of with great affection and respect by him. Also, all the visiting Japanese Sensei were appreciated for the skill they brought over and shared with the early pioneers of the art in the UK.

I'm also aware of 'some' of the politics that lead the the Aikido scene being quite messy in the UK once Abbe Sensei returned to Japan. Probably inevitable, as nothing stays the same and anything that grows with numbers of individuals, is bound to have tensions inherent in whatever system they follow.

As far as I understand things, although Ken Williams had a great deal of input into the promotion and spreading of (as you did yourself) the art of Aikido in the UK. However, there came a point where he set up his own Federation, after leaving Tohei Sensei, and has little to do with the wider world of British Aikido ever since (well over 30 odd years).

Having read some of the material you have posted on your very informative site, particularly regarding the BAB, Im not surprised that he is happy to be a loner, away from all that nonsense.

Anyway, I feel very fortunate to have recieved the teaching I have. I owe a debt of gratitude to all of the early teachers that got Aikido off the ground over here.

regards

Mark
Hi Mark

The training at the Hut Dojo was always very hard, the highlight was the recovery session with Sensei Wlilliams in the Hut Pub for a couple of pints of beer after training.

I appreciate that Sensei Williams later joined with Tohei Sensei, I believe he will always be remembered for what he achieved between 1955 - 1967. I do accept that he went on to do much more.
That is why I have worked so hard against the odds to protect the history of the early days of British Aikdo...
I can fully understand why Sensei stepped back as he did from the likes of the BAB...They could have done so much for Aikido, they have failed miserably.
Please give my sincere regards to Sensei Williams.

Henry Ellis
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/
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Old 01-15-2011, 11:28 AM   #30
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,219
United Kingdom
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Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
Hi Mark

The training at the Hut Dojo was always very hard, the highlight was the recovery session with Sensei Wlilliams in the Hut Pub for a couple of pints of beer after training.

I appreciate that Sensei Williams later joined with Tohei Sensei, I believe he will always be remembered for what he achieved between 1955 - 1967. I do accept that he went on to do much more.
That is why I have worked so hard against the odds to protect the history of the early days of British Aikdo...
I can fully understand why Sensei stepped back as he did from the likes of the BAB...They could have done so much for Aikido, they have failed miserably.
Please give my sincere regards to Sensei Williams.

Henry Ellis
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/
Hi Henry,

Of course I will pass on your regards.

I will be seeing him soon as I have three young students going up for their 1st Dan Grading.

Sensei is not the hard taskmaster he once was, age and wisdom has tempered him. However 'George' the Shinai is occasionally taken from the rack, when he is roused by students not doing what they've been shown!

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 01-15-2011, 11:41 AM   #31
Hellis
Dojo: Ellis Schools of Traditional Aikido
Location: Bracknell
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 597
England
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Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
Hi Henry,

Of course I will pass on your regards.

I will be seeing him soon as I have three young students going up for their 1st Dan Grading.

Sensei is not the hard taskmaster he once was, age and wisdom has tempered him. However 'George' the Shinai is occasionally taken from the rack, when he is roused by students not doing what they've been shown!

regards,

Mark
Ha ha ha Old habits are hard to lose ( shinai )

Kenshiro Abbe Sensei would say " My English not good, my shinai speak fluentl English !!".............

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/
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Old 01-15-2011, 12:03 PM   #32
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
United Kingdom
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Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure

Ooooh!! S***t someone woke me up!!!!!???

This is a bad dream isn't it?
Now where did I put that dam teapot and cozy.....?

Last edited by Tony Wagstaffe : 01-15-2011 at 12:05 PM.
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Old 01-15-2011, 04:30 PM   #33
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,219
United Kingdom
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Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Ooooh!! S***t someone woke me up!!!!!???

This is a bad dream isn't it?
Now where did I put that dam teapot and cozy.....?
What does that mean Tony?

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 01-15-2011, 08:01 PM   #34
SeaGrass
Dojo: Kenshinyokan
Location: Southern California
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 53
United_States
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Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure

ukemi seems very unsafe imho
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Old 01-15-2011, 08:27 PM   #35
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
United Kingdom
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Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
What does that mean Tony?
It means I need a cup of rosy lee to calm the shock of seeing such mind blowing martial prowess......
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Old 01-16-2011, 02:41 AM   #36
Hellis
Dojo: Ellis Schools of Traditional Aikido
Location: Bracknell
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 597
England
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Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
It means I need a cup of rosy lee to calm the shock of seeing such mind blowing martial prowess......
Good morning Tony, time for a moring cuppa. I hope you kept the tea pot warm ?

Henry Ellis
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/
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Old 01-16-2011, 05:25 AM   #37
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
United Kingdom
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Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
Good morning Tony, time for a moring cuppa. I hope you kept the tea pot warm ?

Henry Ellis
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/
Sorry Henry someone nicked my cozy......
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Old 01-16-2011, 05:31 AM   #38
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
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Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure

Some more "tricks" for those who like this sort of thing.....
It's funny how I get asked to do them when people want to do videos.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gL3Lw...eature=related....

All these silly tricks are nothing to do with learning solid training, it's where it's really at, anyone can do this.....
All it means is you understand body mechanics and would be useless in a really hostile situation.....
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Old 01-16-2011, 06:07 AM   #39
Hellis
Dojo: Ellis Schools of Traditional Aikido
Location: Bracknell
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 597
England
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Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Some more "tricks" for those who like this sort of thing.....
It's funny how I get asked to do them when people want to do videos.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gL3Lw...eature=related....

All these silly tricks are nothing to do with learning solid training, it's where it's really at, anyone can do this.....
All it means is you understand body mechanics and would be useless in a really hostile situation.....
""" Invisible Aiki """"
I wish it had been truly invisible then I would not have watched it.

Henry Ellis
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/
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Old 01-16-2011, 06:38 AM   #40
Mary Eastland
 
Mary Eastland's Avatar
Dojo: Berkshire Hills Aikido
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,200
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Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure

hey Tony:
I just looked at your video again...it doesn't really look too different that what other people are doing except for the times when it seems like you are working to hard and need to relax more. Why all this noise about how different you are? (not being snarky really am interested)
Mary
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Old 01-16-2011, 07:21 AM   #41
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
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Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
hey Tony:
I just looked at your video again...it doesn't really look too different that what other people are doing except for the times when it seems like you are working to hard and need to relax more. Why all this noise about how different you are? (not being snarky really am interested)
Mary
It's very simple Mary, you can only do these tricks from learning good hard solid practice. Understanding body mechanics and doing what everyone seems to find so fascinating. I show these tricks to my students who can do them straight away, It's no big deal.....
What most don't seem to realise is it will not work in a real hostile situation..... believe it I know......
You can only know that if you have been in one.... or many in my case
Dojo practice is not fraught with any real danger, but when you are out on the tatami to compete against somebody who isn't going to fall down at the slightest move it is a little more risky......
When in a hostile situation, ya don't have time to mess about and relax for after noon tea.......It is folly trying to do simple tricks when in that environment, try it sometime when somebody is really resisting you and has every intention of taking your block off.....
Everyone forgets that Proff Ueshiba, although small in height was powerfully built, so knew these tricks easily from his solid training....
It's a bit like saying you will get fit from doing martial arts if you train hard.... well its true of any physical discipline.......
I can also do the trick of taking a full blows to the stomach, but that's nothing clever as all boxers have that ability by doing loads of sit ups to toughen the stomach muscles and having a medicine ball bounced on it, also knowing when to apply isometric contraction at the time someone hits it..... nothing mysterious about that.....
Here in lies the secret..... relax contract, relax contract , easy peasy....
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Old 01-16-2011, 07:28 AM   #42
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
United Kingdom
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Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
""" Invisible Aiki """"
I wish it had been truly invisible then I would not have watched it.

Henry Ellis
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/
Working on it Henry... now you see me..... now you don't
I'm practising to become a ninja now.....

Saw that article on your son Richard, Give him my best and I wish him success in all that he does, a true aikidoka.....
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Old 01-16-2011, 07:54 AM   #43
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
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Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure

Applying these when under real duress, would only be applicable by accident or a lucky hit. Or one is extremely accurate!!
Most of these won't work when people are under the affluence of incahol or other mind mending drugs....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHdkl...eature=related

Nice for a bit of Sunday afternoon entertainment....
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Old 01-16-2011, 09:28 AM   #44
Hellis
Dojo: Ellis Schools of Traditional Aikido
Location: Bracknell
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 597
England
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Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure

Jeeeez Tony, If you are going to provide these videos, you should also provide the alcohol ....

So, if you are being attacked ?, you ask the assailant to stand still ( don't forget to say please ) whilst you find the pressure point, he must also be advised not to kick or punch or bite your finger while you pull on his lip....

I suppose you could give your opponent a stern look :-)

Henry Ellis
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/
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Old 01-16-2011, 09:39 AM   #45
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
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Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
Jeeeez Tony, If you are going to provide these videos, you should also provide the alcohol ....

So, if you are being attacked ?, you ask the assailant to stand still ( don't forget to say please ) whilst you find the pressure point, he must also be advised not to kick or punch or bite your finger while you pull on his lip....

I suppose you could give your opponent a stern look :-)

Henry Ellis
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/


Ha ha....

If I was nearer I would take you down the pub and buy you one (or two) Henry.....
But alas you have to take out a mortgage to buy a sodding pint these days ........ha ha!!

Whenever you are ready Sensei......
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Old 01-16-2011, 11:04 AM   #46
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
United Kingdom
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Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure

With all this talk of "masters" I reckon that if this is the case? I must be bloody superman and hold the rank of 96th dan!!!!

Henry, you should promote yourself, with immediate effect to 110th Dan...........

God........?

Last edited by Tony Wagstaffe : 01-16-2011 at 11:08 AM.
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Old 08-31-2011, 07:59 AM   #47
ronin67
Location: Sagamihara
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 27
Japan
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Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure

I'm going to respectfully ask this again. What is with the hats anyway?

May God bless!

Ed

"Aikido can never truly bring peace without the full understanding and application of KI ".
-Me
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Old 08-31-2011, 08:20 AM   #48
Hellis
Dojo: Ellis Schools of Traditional Aikido
Location: Bracknell
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 597
England
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Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure

For a moment I thought Tony was back to liven the forum up a bit - then I saw it was an old thread....
Ed Duffy
The hats help to keep Grahams Ki warm ...

Henry Ellis
Aikido in MMA
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/
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Old 08-31-2011, 04:42 PM   #49
sakumeikan
Dojo: Sakumeikan N.E. Aikkai .Newcastle upon Tyne.
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,152
United Kingdom
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Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure

Dear Graham,
I will say that having watched your video I can safely state that once seen the video will not be forgotten.
Cheers, Joe.
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Old 08-31-2011, 06:40 PM   #50
robin_jet_alt
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 537
Australia
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Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure

Ah, I was wondering what videos Dan was referring to. Now I know.

All I can say is that it is pretty gutsy to post videos of what you do on these forums, knowing that people are likely to rip into them. I wouldn't post any videos of myself on here.
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