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-   -   Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18945)

graham christian 11-13-2010 10:22 AM

Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure
 
For those who wish to see Aikido done without force.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CosmipcgsUQ

Hope you enjoy.

Mark Freeman 11-13-2010 11:59 AM

Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure
 
Hi Graham,

Full marks to you for putting it out there for everyone to see. However, if I were you, I would find a hard hat, methinks you may be in for a bumpy ride.

regards

Mark

carina reinhardt 11-13-2010 12:13 PM

Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 268156)
For those who wish to see Aikido done without force.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CosmipcgsUQ

Hope you enjoy.

But you cannot call that a martial art any more..

Mary Eastland 11-13-2010 12:34 PM

Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure
 
Quote:

Carina Reinhardt wrote: (Post 268161)
But you cannot call that a martial art any more..

Martial art! Martial Art! :D :cool:
How can you tell how that feels by how it looks?
Mary

Janet Rosen 11-13-2010 12:51 PM

Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure
 
Quote:

Mary Eastland wrote: (Post 268162)
Martial art! Martial Art! :D :cool:
How can you tell how that feels by how it looks?
Mary

Mary I tend to agree w/ you on this - but, I AM looking for any sign that uke's balance has been taken before he falls, such as on shihonage being up on tippytoe or having to flex backward, or some kind of disruption in uke's structural integrity, and I'm just not seeing it. In technique after technique, uke appears to be essentially walking around nage and from a fully integrated posture deciding to fall.

In the version of cooperative training I try to model, uke is actually attacking and putting in the appropriate energy so that if nage does her part correctly, yes, uke's structural integrity is both visibly and palpably taken away and the technique happens.

So my question to the OP is: is this video intended to be an idealized demo in which uke is complicit or does it reflect actual training in your dojo?

dps 11-13-2010 01:16 PM

Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure
 
I don't know. It looks like Sensei has already injured one uke and someone is trying to revive him. :)

Maybe this is a beginners class.

dps

carina reinhardt 11-13-2010 01:22 PM

Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure
 
Quote:

Mary Eastland wrote: (Post 268162)
Martial art! Martial Art! :D :cool:
How can you tell how that feels by how it looks?
Mary

I sure cannot feel by how it looks, but I don't see any attack, any unbalance, they are just walking, uke taking toris hand, do you think with that iriminage anybody will fall down?
Everything goes slowly...
Ok I'm opened minded, if Graham call it martial art...Tai Chi is also a martial art..

Flintstone 11-13-2010 02:25 PM

Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure
 
Quote:

Carina Reinhardt wrote: (Post 268166)
Tai Chi is also a martial art..

It. Is.

Michael Hackett 11-13-2010 02:43 PM

Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure
 
Great title! Especially the part about the "Dance of the Universe".

carina reinhardt 11-13-2010 02:43 PM

Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure
 
Quote:

Alejandro Villanueva wrote: (Post 268171)
It. Is.

That is what I said,

graham christian 11-13-2010 03:10 PM

Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 268156)
For those who wish to see Aikido done without force.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CosmipcgsUQ

Hope you enjoy.

Thank you all for your comments, I didn't expect to have many , especially positive ones.

I now feel I must explain. The video shown is to show a spiritual side of Aikido and is a demonstration of Kokyu. When a person gets a good reality of principles like kokyu then it does look a bit unbelievable to the naked eye.

So, if you will excuse the quality, I will leave you with the following video which shows not only Kokyu but also the power of the true energy of Koshi. With these two powerful principles comes the greater responsibility of taking into account your attacker and the need for the spirit of loving protection.

So welcome to a demo of Ki, Kokyu and Koshi.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttipyZQTguE

Mark Freeman 11-13-2010 05:04 PM

Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure
 
Hi Graham,

I think the title of the clip "Two Masters at Play" leaves you open to some criticism. The title of 'Master' can be a curse as well as a blessing. After 18 years I consider myself to be a competent student and teacher, but I certainly wouldn't want to go anywhere near the 'M' word, it's way above my pay grade. I can see what you are trying to demonstrate, I just have a bit of an issue with the grandiose title. For me Masters are few and far between. Maybe I am misreading it and you have a bit of tongue in cheek that I am missing.

I uderstand that when you fully get the kokyu principles, that some of what can be done can seem unbelievable to the onlooker, but not to those who know from the inside. You either feel it or you don't.

Still, like some of the comments that have been made above, there seems to be certain aspects missing from the demo that calls what is being seen into question. The attacks seem pretty un convincing and uke does not show a great deal of structural integrity throughout the technique, particularly when being thrown.

You speak of power being shown, I must admit I am at a bit of a loss to see it. I am definitely not looking for physical power, I want to see mental extention/ki (hard to fully appreciate in a video I know, but I watch my teacher demonstrate it so I know what I am looking for)

I say this as a Ki Aikido student of a teacher who may well qualify for the title of Master after over 50 years in the art, however I have never heard him use it of himself.

We practice and teach in a very similar manner to yourselves in that all of our techniques are (or we try) applied with the spirit of loving protection and much of my teachers original hard/damaging training has been modified for modern practice. However, we still strive to maintain the martial integrity of committed attacks, intent, extention, balance, aiki, moving from the centre, and control of uke throughout.

Having said that, we do teach from the soft side up, emphasising relaxation, flow, and following, trying to eliminate all tension and physical force. There is a point where this has to evolve to be able to deal with some reality. Without complete control of uke's centre coming from your own immovable mind and solid/fluid body, then a strong resistant attack will not be effectively dealt with. And if I am to be honest I was seeing a number of 'reversal opportunities' in your clips.

Interesting to watch and good luck with your training, remember though, there are some very experienced long term aikidoa on these fora from just about every type/style that has come into being, so no need to educate everyone.

Quote:

Thank you all for your comments, I didn't expect to have many , especially positive ones
Why, were you expecting negative ones?

regards

Mark
p.s. where does your particular style come from?

Michael Hackett 11-13-2010 06:22 PM

Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure
 
Yup, great title in the first video.

graham christian 11-13-2010 07:09 PM

Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure
 
Quote:

Mark Freeman wrote: (Post 268179)
Hi Graham,

I think the title of the clip "Two Masters at Play" leaves you open to some criticism. The title of 'Master' can be a curse as well as a blessing. After 18 years I consider myself to be a competent student and teacher, but I certainly wouldn't want to go anywhere near the 'M' word, it's way above my pay grade. I can see what you are trying to demonstrate, I just have a bit of an issue with the grandiose title. For me Masters are few and far between. Maybe I am misreading it and you have a bit of tongue in cheek that I am missing.

I uderstand that when you fully get the kokyu principles, that some of what can be done can seem unbelievable to the onlooker, but not to those who know from the inside. You either feel it or you don't.

Still, like some of the comments that have been made above, there seems to be certain aspects missing from the demo that calls what is being seen into question. The attacks seem pretty un convincing and uke does not show a great deal of structural integrity throughout the technique, particularly when being thrown.

You speak of power being shown, I must admit I am at a bit of a loss to see it. I am definitely not looking for physical power, I want to see mental extention/ki (hard to fully appreciate in a video I know, but I watch my teacher demonstrate it so I know what I am looking for)

I say this as a Ki Aikido student of a teacher who may well qualify for the title of Master after over 50 years in the art, however I have never heard him use it of himself.

We practice and teach in a very similar manner to yourselves in that all of our techniques are (or we try) applied with the spirit of loving protection and much of my teachers original hard/damaging training has been modified for modern practice. However, we still strive to maintain the martial integrity of committed attacks, intent, extention, balance, aiki, moving from the centre, and control of uke throughout.

Having said that, we do teach from the soft side up, emphasising relaxation, flow, and following, trying to eliminate all tension and physical force. There is a point where this has to evolve to be able to deal with some reality. Without complete control of uke's centre coming from your own immovable mind and solid/fluid body, then a strong resistant attack will not be effectively dealt with. And if I am to be honest I was seeing a number of 'reversal opportunities' in your clips.

Interesting to watch and good luck with your training, remember though, there are some very experienced long term aikidoa on these fora from just about every type/style that has come into being, so no need to educate everyone.

Why, were you expecting negative ones?

regards

Mark
p.s. where does your particular style come from?

Hi Mark, thank you for giving such a well constructed and thoughtful reply. I owe you a proper response.

Firstly the title of the video. I have a number of them on youtube and all of the titles I put on them are artistic titles rather than technical, except for my last two which are more technical.

Now on the attacks of the uke I will first say that I teach firstly from static techniques, then from 'offering' and leading and finally from full moving striking as I'm pretty sure you do also in Ki Aikido.

The uke is taught not to go anywhere unless he has no choice.(as you probably know too many throw themselves with great breakfalls) So it may look like the uke is not doing much but if I was not fully in harmony he would either stop or just carry on through.

When you mention the point about a strong resistant attack being harder to deal with, again a valid point, I can only say this;
I personally find them much easier to deal with and thus teach my students to concentrate on developing their Ki and center etc. and to handle all kinds of attacks and they learn bit by bit that the more centered calm attacks are the hardest to deal with.

As for me and my particular style then I can only say it is one I have developed over the last ten years. I started 30 years ago training under Sensei Mike Muspratt in Watford who had been in Aikido from the start of it's introduction into England at a place called the hut. He was taught by Tohei Sensei and by Noro Sensei originally and thus my influences are of the early Aikikai and of KI Aikido. In fact the first book I read was' Ki in daily life' by Tohei Sensei and still have a Hakama sent to Mike by Tohei Sensei and handed on to me which I keep as a matter of honour and respect. It was also there where I was taught Ki-atsu and have practiced that ever since.

O.K. Hope I haven't bored you too much(joke).

Keep living it and loving it. G.

Demetrio Cereijo 11-14-2010 10:05 AM

Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure
 
Wearing hats and long sleeve shirts under keikogi. It has to be a very cold place.

Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 268183)
... Sensei Mike Muspratt in Watford who had been in Aikido from the start of it's introduction into England at a place called the hut. He was taught by Tohei Sensei and by Noro Sensei originally

There are some things that don't match here.

If Muspratt sensei was at "the hut dojo" in the beginnings of british aikido he could not have been taught originally by Tohei sensei nor by Noro sensei.

graham christian 11-14-2010 11:15 AM

Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure
 
Quote:

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: (Post 268196)
Wearing hats and long sleeve shirts under keikogi. It has to be a very cold place.

There are some things that don't match here.

If Muspratt sensei was at "the hut dojo" in the beginnings of british aikido he could not have been taught originally by Tohei sensei nor by Noro sensei.

Hi Demetrio, I wasn't there personally and am only saying what I was told by him and have no reason to disbelieve him. He told me that he also did training in wales and he still teaches at his private dojo in north watford

If you go on to google images and type in Mike Muspratt Aikido you will see an old official photo of five sitting seiza. Mike is the one on the left as you look at the picture and no doubt you may be able to name the rest of the people there, including the sensei.

Have fun. G.

Russ Q 11-14-2010 11:16 AM

Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure
 
I like the hats....

Demetrio Cereijo 11-14-2010 11:50 AM

Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 268202)
Hi Demetrio, I wasn't there personally and am only saying what I was told by him and have no reason to disbelieve him.

Maybe you misunderstood him.

Quote:

If you go on to google images and type in Mike Muspratt Aikido you will see an old official photo of five sitting seiza. Mike is the one on the left as you look at the picture and no doubt you may be able to name the rest of the people there, including the sensei.
Tohei Koichi sensei is in the middle. Does that mean he (Tohei sensei) was the original aikido instructor at the hut?

Quote:

Have fun. G.
I'm having it.

Dan Rubin 11-14-2010 02:56 PM

Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure
 
Quote:

Mark Freeman wrote: (Post 268179)
For me Masters are few and far between.

"There are only a handful of true masters on the whole planet. Funny how they all end up in the San Francisco yellow pages!" --Yukiyoshi Takamura Sensei

Anthony Loeppert 11-14-2010 06:04 PM

Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure
 
Quote:

Russ Qureshi wrote: (Post 268203)
I like the hats....

I'm sure they are purely functional... you gotta have some place to keep your stash...

lbb 11-14-2010 08:28 PM

Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure
 
Tell me they didn't shoot that with a security camera. They didn't really...did they?

kewms 11-20-2010 07:42 PM

Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 268202)
If you go on to google images and type in Mike Muspratt Aikido you will see an old official photo of five sitting seiza. Mike is the one on the left as you look at the picture and no doubt you may be able to name the rest of the people there, including the sensei.

I've appeared in group photos with all sorts of people. That doesn't mean they are my teachers, or would even recognize me on or off the mat

Katherine

Mark Freeman 11-21-2010 06:12 AM

Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure
 
Quote:

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: (Post 268196)
If Muspratt sensei was at "the hut dojo" in the beginnings of british aikido he could not have been taught originally by Tohei sensei nor by Noro sensei.

As far as I know Tohei Sensei did not ever teach at the Hut (although I stand to be corrected). My teacher Sensei Ken Williams was the first to receive Aikido training there from Kenshiro Abbe Sensei who introduced Aikido to the UK.

Sensei Henry Ellis' website http://www.british-aikido.com/BritishAikidoTree.htm has extensive material documenting the history of British Aikido and has dealt with many claims of people saying they were there in the beginning and simply weren't. Mr Muspratt may well have trained at the Hut (many people did) but only those recorded on Sensei Ellis' website were actually there in the early days.

Noro Sensei was invited came to teach as did Senseis Nakazono, Tamera and Tada.

Tohei Sensei was not (again as far as I know) part of the British Aikido scene until after Abbe Sensei returned to Japan in the mid 1960's. I will talk to Sensei Williams to clarify, if/when Tohei came to the UK before he went to study under him in Japan, some fair few years after Abbe Sensei left.

I just found the pic referred to in Graham's post above. http://marbella.to/aikido/sensei.htm Mike Muspratt did indeed receive instruction from Tohei in 1978 but it wasn't at the infamous Hut.

regards,

Mark

graham christian 11-21-2010 04:02 PM

Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure
 
Quote:

Mark Freeman wrote: (Post 268569)
As far as I know Tohei Sensei did not ever teach at the Hut (although I stand to be corrected). My teacher Sensei Ken Williams was the first to receive Aikido training there from Kenshiro Abbe Sensei who introduced Aikido to the UK.

Sensei Henry Ellis' website http://www.british-aikido.com/BritishAikidoTree.htm has extensive material documenting the history of British Aikido and has dealt with many claims of people saying they were there in the beginning and simply weren't. Mr Muspratt may well have trained at the Hut (many people did) but only those recorded on Sensei Ellis' website were actually there in the early days.

Noro Sensei was invited came to teach as did Senseis Nakazono, Tamera and Tada.

Tohei Sensei was not (again as far as I know) part of the British Aikido scene until after Abbe Sensei returned to Japan in the mid 1960's. I will talk to Sensei Williams to clarify, if/when Tohei came to the UK before he went to study under him in Japan, some fair few years after Abbe Sensei left.

I just found the pic referred to in Graham's post above. http://marbella.to/aikido/sensei.htm Mike Muspratt did indeed receive instruction from Tohei in 1978 but it wasn't at the infamous Hut.

regards,

Mark

Hi Marc, nice explanation, good to see someone who can research before concluding.

As I said before I wasn't personally there and only had stories relatrd to me by Mike Sensei and an old japanese friend of his named Yoshi.

However, I am also quite sure he mentioned both Henry Ellis and Ken Williams and in fact I have sent a private message to Sensei Henry Ellis only yesterday to enquire as to his memmories of that time and Mike as I'm sure they all knew each other. I will be very interested to hear what your Sensei has to say too.

Regards. G.

Hellis 01-15-2011 06:18 AM

Re: Golden Center Aikido for your pleasure
 
Quote:

Mark Freeman wrote: (Post 268569)
As far as I know Tohei Sensei did not ever teach at the Hut (although I stand to be corrected). My teacher Sensei Ken Williams was the first to receive Aikido training there from Kenshiro Abbe Sensei who introduced Aikido to the UK.

Sensei Henry Ellis' website http://www.british-aikido.com/BritishAikidoTree.htm has extensive material documenting the history of British Aikido and has dealt with many claims of people saying they were there in the beginning and simply weren't. Mr Muspratt may well have trained at the Hut (many people did) but only those recorded on Sensei Ellis' website were actually there in the early days.

Noro Sensei was invited came to teach as did Senseis Nakazono, Tamera and Tada.

Tohei Sensei was not (again as far as I know) part of the British Aikido scene until after Abbe Sensei returned to Japan in the mid 1960's. I will talk to Sensei Williams to clarify, if/when Tohei came to the UK before he went to study under him in Japan, some fair few years after Abbe Sensei left.

I just found the pic referred to in Graham's post above. http://marbella.to/aikido/sensei.htm Mike Muspratt did indeed receive instruction from Tohei in 1978 but it wasn't at the infamous Hut.

regards,

Mark

Mark

I must have previously missed this thread. You are correct that Ken Williams Sensei was the first student of Aikido in the UK with Kenshiro Abbe Sensei. The British Aikido community owe a great deal to the efforts of Williams Sensei in those early days.

Tohei Sensei never visited the Hut Dojo.

I have no axe to grind with Mr Muspratt, I have never seen any claims by him that I would dispute.
I would though dispute Grahams claim that Mr Muspratt was training at the Hut Dojo in " the beginning "..( 1955 ).I personally have no memory of Mr Muspratt training at the Hut Dojo, I don't doubt that he may well have visited in the 60s.. I do remember Foster Sensei visiting the small dojo in Watford of Mr Muspratt..

Kenshiro Abbe Sensei invited several teachers from France to visit the UK, Tadashi Abe 1958? ~ Mikoto Nakazono 1960 ? M Noro 1963.

I looked at the said photo, I did not recognise anyone other than Tohei Sensei. The dojo looks rather nice and modern, where as the Hut Dojo looked more like ``Stalag 17 ``

I am sorry to say Graham, having watched your video, I can assure that Mr Muspratt would not have learned any of that from the Hut Dojo and the instructors there.

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/


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