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Old 02-06-2005, 03:49 PM   #1
Drew Herron
 
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Square Where's the hara?

Well, I basically know where it "is". But in the books I've read, it's always portrayed as being on the surface of your lower belly. This doesn't really make sense as far as your center of gravity goes, so I was wondering: When you're focusing on your center, do you focus on a point on your lower abdomen, or a more three-dimensional point inside your abdomen?

-Drew
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Old 02-06-2005, 04:28 PM   #2
malsmith
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Re: Where's the hara?

my shihan always says that your hara is 3 or 4 inches below your bellybotton and then three inches in (3 inches in from your skin surface)

does anybody else know something different?
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Old 02-06-2005, 04:46 PM   #3
Janet Rosen
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Re: Where's the hara?

Yep, inside, not on the surface.

Janet Rosen
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Old 02-06-2005, 04:58 PM   #4
TheWonderKid
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Re: Where's the hara?

From what I understand, (and you'll have to take my comments with a grain of salt cause I haven't been practicing all that long), it is inside your body a couple of inches down and in from your navel.

If you're really wondering exactly wear, try shadow boxing some techniques and get a feel for it. Try and let your mind clear and it will slowly take shape in your mind. At least, I found that it worked for me.
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Old 02-06-2005, 05:50 PM   #5
Jordan Steele
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Re: Where's the hara?

It's really not very complicated. The "hara" is not some mystical location that only the masters know of. It's just the area of your midsection that your center of balance comes from.
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Old 02-06-2005, 09:18 PM   #6
Greg Jennings
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Re: Where's the hara?

Take a straight metal rod. Balance it on its end. Notice that its center of mass is over its "feet". Bend the rod near the "waist". Attempt to stand it on its "feet" again. Watch it fall over in the direction that the upper half is bent.

Hmmmmm,

Greg Jennings
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Old 02-06-2005, 09:41 PM   #7
senshincenter
 
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Re: Where's the hara?

"hara" only overlaps with the "center of gravity" in terms of meaning here and there. So, in my opinion, it doesn't serve one too well to only think of the hara as the center of gravity. There are many more connotations associated with the hara that are not associated with the center of gravity. Also, the center of gravity is not a specific location in the body. It is dynamic by nature and is in a constant state of flux. This is because movement, which effects the positioning and balance of the body, is always in a constant state of flux.

When I first trained, I was always told things like "move from your center," "use your center," "concentrate on your center," etc. As a teacher, I realize that if you don't have your center already, these phrases are basically meaningless since there is no common point of reference being used - no shared context. I have only found them to be useful in terms of getting a student to grasp the concept that there is more to know and do than they already know and can do. For me, phrases like these have only become truly efficient when I combine them with some basic exercises which work to establish a common reference and/or context regarding "center."

For example, it is important to realize that the center of anything can only exist because there are at least two peripheries. It is also mandatory that these peripheries are in a relationship to each other - a co-dependent one. Thus, if you want to find your center, particularly before you know what that is and/or before you experience what that is, seek to establish a co-dependent relationship between the two peripheries which are the very things that mark and define "center". In particular, and most commonly, be sure that your head and feet are in a constant and co-dependent relationship to each other. When they are, you will have established centered movement. When they are not, you will have lost center. This is why awareness must not only go to some point abstractly located proximate to your navel - awareness must travel the length of one's body - from head to two - then center will be manifested naturally, almost of its own accord.

my opinion,
dmv

David M. Valadez
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Old 02-06-2005, 10:23 PM   #8
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Re: Where's the hara?

Well..it kind of only makes since that the hara would be on the inside and not at skin level...

Oh yeah...and remember, "Computer programmers don't run a muck...they just become sarcastic"...

Sorry sensei ...couldn't resist...

Bryce
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Old 02-06-2005, 10:42 PM   #9
Jeanne Shepard
 
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Re: Where's the hara?

The hara is where you move from when you're Tango dancing.

Jeanne
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Old 02-07-2005, 03:47 AM   #10
happysod
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Re: Where's the hara?

Jeanne, please don't use this analogy - I once got confused early on in a tango class and my dancing partner didn't know how to ukemi... (it was a nice irimi+180 breath throw even if I do say so myself, but definitely inappropriate)
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Old 02-07-2005, 06:07 AM   #11
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Re: Where's the hara?

It's more of a "feeling" than a physical place. A good tip from my sensei when I first started was to tense my tummy muscles - you will feel a bit that you can't tense and that is the spot you should visualise as your centre, or "one- point". As it happens, that is a point a few inches below the navel. I also tend to visualise my "one-point" within me, rather than on the surface of the skin but I don't think it matters that much - it's more the feeling of being co-ordinated that you are looking for.

At least that's how I do it

Rob
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Old 02-07-2005, 07:10 AM   #12
rob_liberti
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Re: Where's the hara?

I agree with what David Valadez has said here (and on his web site by the way).

To expand on that a bit, I'd say that when students have no common point of reference, it is much better to talk about maintaining your posture and moving from where your legs attach to the trunk of your body (as the center of your movement). That will help people ensure that their "head and feet are in a constant and co-dependent relationship to each other," resulting in somewhat centered movement.

Several really good sempai have explained to me that "hara is emptiness" and that has been making more and more sense to me lately (in terms of feeling). It helps me work on keeping things intimate and not personal.

Rob
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Old 02-07-2005, 07:56 AM   #13
Greg Jennings
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Re: Where's the hara?

Quote:
Bryce Montgomery wrote:
Oh yeah...and remember, "Computer programmers don't run a muck...they just become sarcastic"...

Sorry sensei ...couldn't resist...
Hi Bryce,
"Hara" actually has connotations beyond the physical "Center of Mass". I'm a little fuzzy on it, but I think the term "Tanden" carries more the feeling of the physical center of mass.

I guess I shouldn't have tried to pose a "thought experiment". I honestly didn't mean to be saracastic...not that I have to try anymore after being in the industry so long.

I really hoped people would see the post and think about it...in the static-literal (what happens if I bend uke's body), in the dynamic-literal (what happens if I stop the bottom or top of a moving free structure) and in the allegorical (what happens if I momentarily "bend" uke's mind).

But, hey, it has long since established that the way that I think about aikido for myself and the way that I can convey those ideas to others is, in the words of Myers Sensei, not mutually inclusive.

The bottom line is: Keep Training.

Best regards,

Last edited by Greg Jennings : 02-07-2005 at 07:59 AM.

Greg Jennings
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Old 02-07-2005, 08:02 AM   #14
Greg Jennings
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Re: Where's the hara?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote:
I agree with what David Valadez has said here
At the risk of wasting bandwidth, "Me too". David is a deep thinker.

I guess it's the sinus drugs, but I just had a visual of David and I talking aikido at an office party and the faces of those around us.

Best regards,

Greg Jennings
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Old 02-07-2005, 08:40 AM   #15
senshincenter
 
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Re: Where's the hara?

Then we must be on the same medication - I had that same vision Greg. ;-)

David M. Valadez
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Old 02-07-2005, 08:45 AM   #16
senshincenter
 
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Re: Where's the hara?

Whoops - pressed the submit button too fast - sorry. Meant to add...

Maybe Rob is talking about this from our web site: (if folks are interested)

http://www.senshincenter.com/pages/w...es/center.html

David M. Valadez
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Old 02-07-2005, 09:29 AM   #17
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Re: Where's the hara?

Thank you Jennings Sensei.

Didn't mean to sound that you were only being sarcastic...I knew you meant something behind it...

Bryce
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Old 02-07-2005, 09:43 AM   #18
Greg Jennings
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Re: Where's the hara?

Quote:
Bryce Montgomery wrote:
Thank you Jennings Sensei.

Didn't mean to sound that you were only being sarcastic...I knew you meant something behind it...

Bryce
Hey Bryce, I hope it didn't come across that I was correcting you. I wasn't.

I'm pretty wiped out today and everything I say should be taken with a grain...or a double-handful...of salt.

Best regards,

Greg Jennings
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Old 02-07-2005, 10:57 AM   #19
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Re: Where's the hara?

Heh. Don't worry Jennings Sensei I didn't feel that way...

Best regards,

Bryce
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Old 02-07-2005, 11:39 AM   #20
rob_liberti
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Re: Where's the hara?

David,

That is a nice little blurb on having the center (which "sensei" said that?), but I was refering to something I read on your site about aikido being the reconciliation of all paradoxes, or something like that. It was well said and I can't do it justice.

I comment on it here, because that is how I see "center" too. Center exhists between unification and separation, between tension and release, between moving and rest, and between holding in and pushing out. Also, if you model your aikido technique after the kotodama (like O-sensei), then you never stop expanding during aikido technique. Since your arms (etc.) have physical limited to how much they can lengthen, to continually expand, you have to continually move your center (and consequently uke's center) to allow this to happen. I have a lot more work/research to do in this area!

David, please keep up the good writing!

Thanks,
Rob
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Old 02-07-2005, 12:11 PM   #21
senshincenter
 
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Re: Where's the hara?

Rob,

I think you summed it up extremely well - perhaps better than even I could. Moreover, I would agree with your take on it - that it would have to be included in any real sense of center.

The "Exchanges," which includes that writing on "center," are all based upon actual dojo interactions I've had with one or more deshi at our dojo. I take some fictional license here and there in order to make the conversations more universal - so they are not so much of an "inside" deal, more open to the other members who were not present at said time and/or to the general public at large. Nevertheless, the base of each exchange is a real conversation that took place between myself and one or more of my deshi. Hence, with a bit of embarrassment, I have to say the "sensei" is me.

Thanks for the encouragement. It always helps.
david

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Old 02-07-2005, 02:52 PM   #22
rob_liberti
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Re: Where's the hara?

Sorry, I didn't mean to set you up for embarrassment. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who is willing to explain such difficult things so well to aikido students is "sensei" enough for me. I only asked because if you said that was from XYZ sensei, I would try to find XYZ sensei's website and read what else that person had to say.

About the center, the thing that eludes me is how to recognize where to make space such that the feeling of center contact is maintained along with the direction you have set (and are maintaining). I can do an *okay* job of this in basic waza (because someone already did a good job mapping out the general choreography), but I don't have to experience to do this in free waza yet (not on purpose). The center of that seems to exhist between desire and aversion (closer to the aversion side than the desire side) -- so it's not the "exact center". I've been playing around with the balance of this being that uke has to balance this out by behaving a bit closer to the desire side than the aversion side for this all to work out as a system with a center. However, what does that say about doing aikido with the kamikazi type attackers? (Like maybe it can't be done, or the nage has to completely avoid them, I don't know!

Sorry, I don't mean to hijack the thread. I just think "where's the hara" has difficult answers...

Rob
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Old 02-07-2005, 03:31 PM   #23
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Re: Where's the hara?

Rob,

Personally, I think this is really getting at the heart of the thread. So, please let me ask you to expand a bit more on this notion of desire and aversion (and the in between of those things). I believe I have a sense of what you are referring to but I would want to make sure I'm thinking of the same things before I attempt to add anything more to what you are saying.

Let me say this now however, your position reminds me of something I've been studying in the Heart Sutra of late - which also relates to the fact that you already mentioned "emptiness." In particular, your notions of desire and aversion remind me of the line in the sutra that reads, "no attainment and no non-attainment." But let me hear more please before I go on. I'm very interested in hearing what else you might be thinking.

Thanks in advance,
d

David M. Valadez
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Old 02-08-2005, 07:50 AM   #24
rob_liberti
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Re: Where's the hara?

I can explain what I mean regarding desire and aversion in the physical sense easily enough. When you move your body close to your partner's body and bend your arms a bit to get even closer - to get more control - you are WAY on the "desire" side. When you move or keep your body at arms length (or more) from your partner - to have more safety - you are WAY on the "aversion" side. I find I need to set things up to start with a little extra desire and then move away (or maybe I should say "expand away") so that my arms are almost 95% extended - so I can keep the center to center connection. If I were to get to 100% extended I'd be totally in "aversion" land.

I think you described the feeling of emptiness better than I could. I'm a bit dense, so please feel invited to elaborate! My limited understanding of the Heart Sutra is that it speaks to a the very sophistocated idea of how the "absolute" is *relative* to the "relative" -- *absolutely*. (Kind of like recursion!) This kind of monistic dualism or dualistic monism (however you like to think about it) is certainly the heart of the issue for going beyond the typical aikido practice of flow just enough to then crank them to the ground...

A whole lot of this is merky because of translation issues. For instance, the idea of separation and unificaiton is a little confusing in that when American's say "separation" we mean "100% cut off in all ways", and the Japanese words we are translating more have a sense of meaning "separated from the whole in some way(s), but still connected to the whole in some other way(s)". But I'm way out of my league in articulating this kind of thing.

I suppose I would sum this all up by saying that my hara is located around intestines which move somewhat freely. My physical hara is generally empty (unless I ate lunch - or I become the first male to get pregnant). Maintaining this very tangable feeling of emptiness is a good tool to help me move in an optimally connected and reflexive way. (That's what hara means to me, at my current level.)

Rob
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Old 02-08-2005, 09:58 AM   #25
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Re: Where's the hara?

Rob

Thanks for replying.

If you will allow me to work my way through my own thoughts, using your ideas/terms…

I think I may get what you are saying. Definitely, it is very interesting and it has certainly made a simple question that wanted so badly to stay at the level of anatomical locations take notice of itself -- forcing it to become more than it ever thought possible.

I think at one level you are using a binary logic (e.g. desire and aversion) to demonstrate a tactical optimum -- one particular to the maai necessary to maintain both connection and a center-to-center relationship between nage and uke. At this level, which is deceptively simple, it almost seems as if your position is making use of a philosophy of balance and/or of middle ground. In particular, you are suggesting that one cannot be "too close" or "too far," that one must be "just right" (in between "too far" and "too close"). Since we are talking about "center" here, or even "hara," we are to understand that this "just right" is interdependent to both having a sense of center and an experience of center. That is to say, to speak of "hara" or of "center" (which we may or may not want to equate), but to not understand either one as part of an interdependency is to miss something huge about "hara" or "center." If I may, I would say, to be stuck on the anatomically positioning of "hara" or "center," such that we lose track of this interdependency, is to be stuck at a very mundane or embryonic level of understanding and experience regarding "hara" or "center."

Your position also asks us to realize that any sense of "hara" or of "center" should include a correct notion of body/mind. That is to say, we cannot find "center" by physical means alone -- absent of spiritual, mental, and emotional considerations. While theoretically, it may seem very possible to "locate" one's "hara" or "center," in actual practice, where "hara" or "center" is most needed and most presumed, knowing where one's "hara" or "center" is on or in one's body amounts to little. Such an attempt opens one up to Korzybski's critical statement of, "A map is not the territory." If we look at your examples of desire and aversion, we can see that we are indeed looking at things of the mind -- things that do have an affect on the body. For example, often we are too close or too far because we are anxious, or too insecure. It is rarely the case that we are just "too close" or just "too far." There is usually an emotional content to our physical expressions. For example, depending upon our personal history and make-up, our insecurities can have us attempting to smother uke's actions, rather than letting them complete themselves. Lacking in faith, we force techniques hoping that some sort of application of Target Creation will suffice in meeting our perceived idea of "success." "Success" mistakenly being understood and experienced as an end to one's feelings of insecurity. As a result, we stop relating to the whole of the situation, we come to neglect the interdependency that exists between our center, uke's center, the center of the technique, the center of the encounter, and the center of the Universe. All that lies at the "center" of things is our insecurity and our attempts to quell it, but this "center" is no center since it negates all else that is in relationship to it. It is egocentric, and by that we mean that it is neglectful even of its own periphery. Thus, it is an anti-center, of sorts.

The same would apply for being too much on the side of aversion -- it too may be seated in insecurity and anxiousness. That is to say, a particular state of mind can easily affect our physical use of center in the direction of either extreme. If we are of a personal history and make-up that has us more fleeing than smothering when we attempt to alleviate or address our fears, it is quite possible that we will lose the center of the technique, and the tactical center of proper body mechanics, simply because we adopt the anti-center of egocentricism (as we attempt to find ourselves a new "secure" state of body/mind via pushing or keeping uke away).

Therefore, it would seem to me that you are quite correct in suggesting that our notion of center could have, or even should have, these notions of "just right," of body/mind, and of interdependency. I think these elements are definitely important and do indeed seem to be some of the major things missing when we instructors say to students, "Use your center." That is to say, and referring back to an earlier post I made in this thread, it is the absence of these things that leads to a loss of mutual context or point of reference, which leads to a lack of understanding and/or immediate availability of center -- which leads to the (practical) meaninglessness of such phrases. My early attempts to get students to focus upon the interdependent relationship that should exist between their head and their feet (and thus the center of those two peripheries) is my effort to get folks to realize that there is more to "hara" or "center" then mere location (as on a map). It is my attempt to get them to realize that there are also these other things involved: "just rightness," body/mind considerations, and a law of interdependency.

At another level, one born out of your use of interdependency, your position is extremely complicated, but also extremely sophisticated. Earlier, I mentioned the center of uke, the center of nage, the center of the technique, the center of the encounter, and the center of the Universe. We may want to understand these things as permanent and individual entities. However, because of the law of interdependency, we have to acknowledge that these things do not exist until they all exist. Yet, equally, we must say, because that is so, because they have no independent nature of their own, these things do not exist. Because the latter is what we may misunderstand the most, we may be better serving ourselves by understanding center not as some thing or some things we should gain but as some thing or some things we should lose. I can acknowledge that to some, particularly those who train only or mostly in Shu level training and/or in Kihon waza, this last statement is absurd and even irrelevant. However, equally, I can acknowledge that to those who are fulfilling the Shu-Ha-Ri model and/or doing a lot of spontaneous training, pointing to a place on your body and saying, "Use that," is equally absurd and irrelevant.

Thanks for the impulse to think some things through (a bit more).

dmv

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