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Old 08-08-2011, 11:35 AM   #1
Mike Sigman
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Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"

I'm bringing over a blog I made on the AikiBlog that pretty much lays out the linearity of jin. Dan Harden has stated that jin is not linear. Grounds for a factual discussion/rebuttal by Dan.

In terms of the assertions about "Spiraling" that were included in Dan's statement on the Elbow Power thread and contrued as part of the jin comment, I'd add a question that starts at this point: "What 'energy' is being spiraled?" If something is being spiraled, fine, but it's not actually 'energy' as physically defined; so what is being 'spiraled' and how does that function as linear jin without being linear jin?

Quote:
The ancient texts and various writings, commentary and codifications about internal strength start out with the idea of Heaven as a source of power, the Earth as a source of power, and many having his own ability and "qi" with which to utilize and combine the qi of Heaven and the Qi of Earth. The "Superior Man" (as the classics say) will use the power of Earth and Heaven to provide as much of his needs and strength as possible. I.e, the "superior man" doesn't use brute strength, he uses qi in its varying format.

The Qi of Earth provides the support of the ground for us to use in place of strength and it provides the weight of an object (downweight) to do work that requires down forces. Said slighty differently, the earth provides forces upward from the surface and it provides forces downward due to weight. Both of these functions indicate that generally speaking, the Qi of Earth is mostly a description of Gravity. In a number of both Chinese and Japanese martial-arts styles, you'll see this reference to Gravity (Kuroda Tetsuzan hands out a flier to beginning students describing the importance of "gravity").

Up and Down, Open and Close, Yin-Yang, etc., are all dichotomies explaining the basic body's function in relation to Gravity. To "Open" is to expand and inhale, with the joints naturally winding openward... the strength of the solidity of the ground is expanded upward and outward; To "Close" is to exhale while the body sink and the joints wind inward... the weight of gravity is in assist. Moves of power that accompany this natural cycle of movement are augments because of the combination of forces.

There are generally 4 basic forces that a human can manage and manipulate using the solidity of the ground and the downweight:
Up, Down, Away from the Body, and Toward the Body. In Taijiquan, those four forces which utilize gravity and the solidity of the earth are called "Peng", "An", "Ji", and "Lu". Using the body to manipulate Up and Down powers, 4 powers can be arrived at and from those 4 directions of power, power can be made in any direction as the mind wills changes within the body to help aim the forces that come from ground-support and gravitic-weight (this is what "intent" means).

The supporting force from the ground is a straight-line force and so is the force from gravity. You can vector add these forces, but you can't curve them.

Movement in varying directions (lets' say moving one arm in a large circle) with the forces derived from groundsupport (let's call it the 'groundpath') and weight-force ('downweight') involves training the body and the mind to work together so that trhe clearest-possible forces of Up, Down, Away from the body and Toward the body are being conveyed to the hand/arm. This can be verified with feel. There is no true "winding" or "circular" until the body learns how to do this and does it with the aid of the dantien controlling the body.

2 cents. If this seems helpful to some people, I'll try to add onto as I can. Comments and critiques welcome *about the facts of the issue*, but if one of the usual suspects begins a personal attack, no more posts on the topic and other areas of internal strength.
Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-08-2011, 01:18 PM   #2
JW
 
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Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"

Here's my comment/question from the other thread. The language of this post refers to whether or not there is disagreement about straight vs curved, and is not in reference to the blog post pasted above.

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Jonathan Wong wrote: View Post
OK I want to get to the bottom of this 'spiralling' issue but I have yet to even be convinced that there is a true disagreement in the first place:

Two people could argue about the color of a cloudless noon sky-- not because of any difference of experience, but because of word choice. How am I supposed to know if one of you is wrong about the color of the sky? (Of course, go look at it with you, but I don't think we've really hit the limits of a net forum yet).

Case in point, "linear." Dan and Mike both disagree with the idea of a foot, belly, and hand needing to be colinear. But still there's arguing.

Mike's words:

Generally, the power from the ground goes up the legs to hips and dantien and then the shortest path to the point of application.

So Mike, you have described (in this very simple example) 2 line segments, (possibly 3 if we count a segment between hip and dantain) which are not necessarily colinear with each other. In fact those segments are anchored to certain points of the body in this description, meaning one could really put severe angles between them by moving into a certain shape. So for all this "linear" talk, you have in fact described:
-a series of connected line segments
-segments having end positions that are contingent on body shape

In essence: a force percept that can project linearly through the air while also being constrained (in some locations) to follow the shape of the body. The shape of the body is agreed to be curvy: we all agree that the human body wants to express spirals, as revealed in either relaxed movement:
[quote isn't working-- in the "what kind of spiraling does aikido have" thread, Mike points out that Ueshiba emphasized relaxation, a condition in which the qi naturally spirals]

Or in high-stakes sports:

[quote isn't working-- in the "what kind of spiraling does aikido have" thread, it was pointed out that in tennis, it is advised to pay attention to the spirals of the body's movement]

So even if this has nothing to do with chansijin, we have curves that describe movement of the body, and a force percept that tends to follow the body. In other words I can see how "linear" can sound wrong and in essence be pretty reasonable. If the human body moves in spirals when used most efficiently, and the body is made to cleanly express the ground's push continuously throughout a movement.. I am not sure what the argument is anymore. Of course a force has only one magnitude and one direction. So it is "linear." But how you use it is constrained by the way the body moves (in a spiralling shape).

I think the basis for the disagreement is not coming through in the words here.

Last edited by JW : 08-08-2011 at 01:20 PM.
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Old 08-08-2011, 01:33 PM   #3
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Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"

Hi Jonathan:

Well, those are good points so let me try to re-state while keeping in mind that my focus was on the linearity. I tried to save time, but yes, let's get down to finer detail.

First of all, the real point is that there is a linear aspect of jin that goes from the dantien to the opponent. That's the main point. In many cases and many styles people deliberately hold the elbow down so that there is a clear channel from dantien to elbow to hand because it assists in the conveyance of the force (less stress on the joints).

In terms of the lines from the ground, I had a choice in terms of physics: I could say that the ground powers the dantien (the hip part is there, but let's simplify) and the movement of the dantien is the main power of the jin that connects with the opponent. OR I could say that the body as a whole works as a singular frame (this perspective is also a valid viewpoint) and the actual jin is a vector resultant that starts somewere below the dantien. Either way it's stated, though, there is a *linear* force on the opponent: that's just basic "jin", which I've actually heard native Chinese describe as a 'force vector'.

'Spiraling' may or may not affect the *power* of the jin, depending upon how it's done, but whatever effects spiraling may have they are apart from the core jin itself. The jin is a linear force.

Is that clearer?

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-08-2011, 01:35 PM   #4
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Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"

And now my reply to the blog post itself. I like this presentation of "ki of earth" and how it is used in the body. But, Mike, isn't this a new interpretation of the terminology?
We got into this a bit on another thread:
Here I tried to point out why I feel like your current explanation is different from what you used to say. If you've changed your point of view, that's fine with me. I don't think it invalidates anything you did before or anything. I think it just means you are changing your mental framework. One can change frame of reference without that being a reflection on the expression of the subject matter itself. I hope you see it that way too.

To sum up, the body should be used to channel the "universal" forces (meaning they don't come from our volition, but from the universe's own apparent volition) of weight and grf into its movements. Internal pressure from the breath can be used to do this. If that sentence is correct, then that internal correctness is a separate point from whether or not I assign grf to "earth" and weight to "heaven" as you did on the judoforum post or if I call both of the m "earth" as you have in the above blog post. In other words how I describe what I do in my own words carries weight and is important, even if how I register my concepts to the "classics" is also an important, separate point.
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Old 08-08-2011, 01:39 PM   #5
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Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"

Hi Mike, much clearer-- in fact I would personally prefer this:
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
OR I could say that the body as a whole works as a singular frame (this perspective is also a valid viewpoint) and the actual jin is a vector resultant that starts somewere below the dantien.
Mike Sigman
My impression based on my own sensation: any force (like the resultant force from the combination of several forces) has a single magnitude and direction, thus is said to be linear. However, to continually manifest a coherent, controllable resultant force from the whole body's (and partners') contributions, one should pay attention to the curves of the body's articulation.
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Old 08-08-2011, 01:46 PM   #6
Mike Sigman
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Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"

Quote:
Jonathan Wong wrote: View Post
And now my reply to the blog post itself. I like this presentation of "ki of earth" and how it is used in the body. But, Mike, isn't this a new interpretation of the terminology?
Yeah, it's a change in the terminology because for years I was just focused on "how is it done" and didn't get too worried about the complex cosmology (which can go into such detail that it confuses rather than helps). What happened was that I finally got interested in more precise terminology because of something that came up in relation to the meaning of "qi" in acupuncture. Then I started looking harder, clarified the distinction, and made a post on QiJin noting the change in terminology. Not function; just terminology.
Quote:
To sum up, the body should be used to channel the "universal" forces (meaning they don't come from our volition, but from the universe's own apparent volition) of weight and grf into its movements. Internal pressure from the breath can be used to do this. If that sentence is correct, then that internal correctness is a separate point from whether or not I assign grf to "earth" and weight to "heaven" as you did on the judoforum post or if I call both of the m "earth" as you have in the above blog post. In other words how I describe what I do in my own words carries weight and is important, even if how I register my concepts to the "classics" is also an important, separate point.
You probably should start a different thread since we're veering off topic. The main point to remember in the Qi of Earth idea is that the desirable thing to do is to use gravity and ground-support instead of muscular strength. Gravity and ground-support forces go in straight lines. Period.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 08-08-2011, 01:51 PM   #7
Mike Sigman
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Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"

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Hi Mike, much clearer-- in fact I would personally prefer this:

My impression based on my own sensation: any force (like the resultant force from the combination of several forces) has a single magnitude and direction, thus is said to be linear. However, to continually manifest a coherent, controllable resultant force from the whole body's (and partners') contributions, one should pay attention to the curves of the body's articulation.
Well, no one should pay attention to "the curves of the body's articulation"; you pay attention to the results and let the body do the rest, for the most part. When you push open a door do you "pay attention to the curves of the body's articulation"? No, you're more in tune with the feedback and linear force that it takes to push the door. You could arch, twist, etc., in a number of ways while you're pushing open the door, but wouldn't it be true to say that the main thing of importance is that you used a linear force from you to the door (whether a stiff-armed normal push or a push from the dantien)?

Mike
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Old 08-08-2011, 01:53 PM   #8
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Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"

At this point I don't care if "heaven" is breath, air pressure, gravity, or whatever-- the main point is not changed: "the desirable thing to do is to use gravity and ground-support instead of muscular strength." So I won't pursue another thread myself.

But I do want to say one thing. I am sure some will write me off for my "one direction, one magnitude" phrasing. I stand by it, but let me emphasize that in terms of motor commands and application, I would never suggest things like "a groundpath only has one direction of force." To touch a person "with the ground" goes hand in hand with receiving, so yes of course it is a 2-way street.
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Old 08-08-2011, 01:54 PM   #9
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Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Well, no one should pay attention to "the curves of the body's articulation"; you pay attention to the results and let the body do the rest, for the most part.
OK good point. I mean "allow the body to do what it wants/needs." This is something that most of us are NOT doing unless we start trying to unlearn stupid, rigid habits.
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Old 08-08-2011, 02:02 PM   #10
Mike Sigman
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Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"

Quote:
Jonathan Wong wrote: View Post
But I do want to say one thing. I am sure some will write me off for my "one direction, one magnitude" phrasing. I stand by it, but let me emphasize that in terms of motor commands and application, I would never suggest things like "a groundpath only has one direction of force." To touch a person "with the ground" goes hand in hand with receiving, so yes of course it is a 2-way street.
Imagine a ball suspended in the air (via imaginary antigravity) and you push it with jin. If the ball goe backward, a linear force was applied, fairly undoubtedly. If someone wants to posit that the ball went backward because of the tangential effect of angular momentum caused by "contradictory spirals", I'm happy to listen.

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-08-2011, 02:25 PM   #11
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Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Imagine a ball suspended in the air (via imaginary antigravity) and you push it with jin. If the ball goe backward, a linear force was applied, fairly undoubtedly. If someone wants to posit that the ball went backward because of the tangential effect of angular momentum caused by "contradictory spirals", I'm happy to listen.

Mike Sigman
On second thought, Jonathan, simply look at "Open" and "Close" (one based on the support of the ground and one on gravity). or look at the jin forces of Peng, Lu, Ji, An. A person trying to pick the flyspecks out of pepper could try to argue "angular momentum" about anything, but those forces as seen in any Statics text are going to be shown as vectors coming from the body. The question isn't whether you raised your big toe when you generarted a force, the question is what kind of force are you generating. In this case it's linear.

Mike
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Old 08-08-2011, 04:12 PM   #12
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Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"

This is what I know about forces:

A force has
  • a direction,
  • a magnitude
  • a point of application (which associates a work line with the force)

External forces on a human body involved in some interaction with another human body include are gravity, friction of the ground, the surface normal force of the ground and one or more forces applied by the other human body.

These forces have different directions, magnitudes and points of application. Even when the net force vector on the body is zero, so that the center of gravity remains stationary, the forces would still put stress on the body, compressing or stretching it.

When work lines of opposing forces don't coincide (like the friction of the ground and a horizontal push from the other human), the forces would apply a torque to the body, which could result in torsion and/or rotation of the body, even when its center of gravity remains stationary.

In short:
A force is linear (it has a work line). When it's work line does not go through the center of gravity of the body that the force applies to, it also generates a torque around its center of gravity.

Then spiralling. What does that mean? In my understanding it describes some motion trajectory.

The shape of a trajectory can be very different from the direction of forces. For instance, the moon orbits the earth in a circle by gravity pulling it straight to earth and with mechanisms like joints you can get all kinds of motion trajectories, even though forces are always linear.

So I don't understand how linearity of forces and spiralling motion would contradict each other.

Last edited by Dave de Vos : 08-08-2011 at 04:19 PM.
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Old 08-08-2011, 04:27 PM   #13
Mike Sigman
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Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"

Quote:
Dave de Vos wrote: View Post
This is what I know about forces:

A force has
  • a direction,
  • a magnitude
  • a point of application (which associates a work line with the force)

External forces on a human body involved in some interaction with another human body include are gravity, friction of the ground, the surface normal force of the ground and one or more forces applied by the other human body.

These forces have different directions, magnitudes and points of application. Even when the net force vector on the body is zero, so that the center of gravity remains stationary, the forces would still put stress on the body, compressing or stretching it.

When work lines of opposing forces don't coincide (like the friction of the ground and a horizontal push from the other human), the forces would apply a torque to the body, which could result in torsion and/or rotation of the body, even when its center of gravity remains stationary.

In short:
A force is linear (it has a work line). When it's work line does not go through the center of gravity of the body that the force applies to, it also generates a torque around its center of gravity.

Then spiralling. What does that mean? In my understanding it describes some motion trajectory.

The shape of a trajectory can be very different from the direction of forces. For instance, the moon orbits the earth in a circle by gravity pulling it straight to earth and with mechanisms like joints you can get all kinds of motion trajectories, even though forces are always linear.

So I don't understand how linearity of forces and spiralling motion would contradict each other.
Hi Dave:

Sure, that sort of restates my comment that you can lift your big toe when you push someone, but the push is still linear. Jin is linear no matter what you do in your body; gravity (for all practical purposes in this discussion) linearly holds the moon to the Earth.

If Ikeda Sensei demonstrates the effects of jin in methods that mainly say "connect the body, move the dantien, but not "connect the body and then perform spirals", people need to grasp the clue: the essential relationship between moving the Uke and moving the dantien is linear. There are a lot more ramifications to all this than the simple topic in this discussion, but I'll start a different thread to cover the most important one when I get a chance.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-08-2011, 05:08 PM   #14
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Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"

Well I sure don't have any disagreement with what you've said, Mike. But, that by itself doesn't mean that I disagree with anyone else in particular. I don't get Erick Mead's angular momentum descriptions, but lots of people don't get them... that's the only thing that comes to mind that I can't get behind. The reason I don't get turned off by "spiral" talk in general is that, per the above discussion, I still would agree with any kind of statements like:

When one purifies the body, one begins to move according to natural spirals that are byproducts of our human body plan. This pure or simplified movement can transmit extrinisc forces like the grf throughout the body continuously, without interruption or loss of fidelity.

As a beginner, I should remain open to things I can't do, and for all I know that includes things like chansijin as well as having these spirals of the body take on a more deterministic influence on the directions of force my body tends to prefer to produce.
But I am open to learning any points of view that my body doesn't tell me are bad..
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Old 08-08-2011, 08:37 PM   #15
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Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post

winding what? Could you please define just how you are using the term jin as it compares/relates/contrasts to Japanese terminology. This is, after all, a Japanese martial art. Others have said that they don't know what you mean by jin. And we have seen cross talk because people define words differently. Otherwise, you could be talking about something completely and utterly different than what we, as readers, are thinking. For example, internal spirals work within any shape that the body holds. So, your "winding jin" must not be the same thing. Sounds like something very different from your Chinese background than what Ueshiba was doing.

This is, after all, a Japanese martial art. It really doesn't sound like you're talking about the same kinds of skills and abilities in regards to Ueshiba's aiki.
I've never really practiced any chinese martial art, apart from some classes with some hsing i/bagua/chen tai chi practitioners. Having said that, here's what I "think" Mike was getting at in relation to spiralling and "jin"

Mike posted a video a few months back demonstrating a "flexible frame". I saw this as a demonstration of connection between two points of contact on the body: an incoming force (i.e a push) and a point of stability (the ground).

The point he was trying to show, I believe, is that there should be a constant, reciprocal balancing of forces between these two points. There should be as little impediment as possible in the medium through which that force travels: the body.

The "purest" connection between these points is, for all intents and purposes, a straight line. Of course, as the force travels through a human body, the actual "line" of force is constantly changing, but conceptually, it's always a straight line.

This is the fundamental condition for "jin". The degree to which these points are connected relates to the purity of Jin. It doesn't matter what art,weapon or form someone is working with: Their degree of mastery of jin depends on how unified these two points of contact are.

Spiralling is essentially an exercise for conditioning the body/mind to connect these two points. However, if one uses spiralling, the connection is not a "pure" as it could be. There is always some "gross" movement involved.

Anyway, this is my reading of the thing. I could be completely wrong and have no problem with anyone destroying this description and explaining the whole thing clearly for dummies like myself.

Regardless, It's a topic worthy of discussion. IMO.

Regards.
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Old 08-08-2011, 08:42 PM   #16
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Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"

Quote:
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Well I sure don't have any disagreement with what you've said, Mike. But, that by itself doesn't mean that I disagree with anyone else in particular. I don't get Erick Mead's angular momentum descriptions, but lots of people don't get them... that's the only thing that comes to mind that I can't get behind. The reason I don't get turned off by "spiral" talk in general is that, per the above discussion, I still would agree with any kind of statements like:

When one purifies the body, one begins to move according to natural spirals that are byproducts of our human body plan. This pure or simplified movement can transmit extrinisc forces like the grf throughout the body continuously, without interruption or loss of fidelity.

As a beginner, I should remain open to things I can't do, and for all I know that includes things like chansijin as well as having these spirals of the body take on a more deterministic influence on the directions of force my body tends to prefer to produce.
But I am open to learning any points of view that my body doesn't tell me are bad..
There's really nothing wrong with Erick's pointing to angular momentum, Jonathan. The real problem is that it's like saying "molecules are always in motion". True, but not explicative enough to determine either understanding or "how to".

Regards,

Mike
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Old 08-08-2011, 08:45 PM   #17
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Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"

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Oisin Bourke wrote: View Post
I've never really practiced any chinese martial art, apart from some classes with some hsing i/bagua/chen tai chi practitioners. Having said that, here's what I "think" Mike was getting at in relation to spiralling and "jin"

Mike posted a video a few months back demonstrating a "flexible frame". I saw this as a demonstration of connection between two points of contact on the body: an incoming force (i.e a push) and a point of stability (the ground).

The point he was trying to show, I believe, is that there should be a constant, reciprocal balancing of forces between these two points. There should be as little impediment as possible in the medium through which that force travels: the body.

The "purest" connection between these points is, for all intents and purposes, a straight line. Of course, as the force travels through a human body, the actual "line" of force is constantly changing, but conceptually, it's always a straight line.

This is the fundamental condition for "jin". The degree to which these points are connected relates to the purity of Jin. It doesn't matter what art,weapon or form someone is working with: Their degree of mastery of jin depends on how unified these two points of contact are.

Spiralling is essentially an exercise for conditioning the body/mind to connect these two points. However, if one uses spiralling, the connection is not a "pure" as it could be. There is always some "gross" movement involved.

Anyway, this is my reading of the thing. I could be completely wrong and have no problem with anyone destroying this description and explaining the whole thing clearly for dummies like myself.

Regardless, It's a topic worthy of discussion. IMO.

Regards.
Hi Oisin:

You did indeed catch the general point and you stated it well. The only disagreement is about last comment on the purity and 'spiraling'. However, I'll address that in a separate thread that should, hopefully, logically dispell the myths and rumours which befuddle people trying to get a foothold on the questions. Until very recently I didn't realize how far afield the lack of facts had slowed progress.

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-08-2011, 09:11 PM   #18
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Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Hi Oisin:

You did indeed catch the general point and you stated it well. The only disagreement is about last comment on the purity and 'spiraling'. However, I'll address that in a separate thread that should, hopefully, logically dispell the myths and rumours which befuddle people trying to get a foothold on the questions. Until very recently I didn't realize how far afield the lack of facts had slowed progress.

Mike Sigman
Mike,

I understand where you're coming from now. Thanks for taking the time to explain it.

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Old 08-08-2011, 09:50 PM   #19
Mike Sigman
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Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"

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Oisin Bourke wrote: View Post
Mike posted a video a few months back demonstrating a "flexible frame". I saw this as a demonstration of connection between two points of contact on the body: an incoming force (i.e a push) and a point of stability (the ground).

The point he was trying to show, I believe, is that there should be a constant, reciprocal balancing of forces between these two points. There should be as little impediment as possible in the medium through which that force travels: the body.

The "purest" connection between these points is, for all intents and purposes, a straight line. Of course, as the force travels through a human body, the actual "line" of force is constantly changing, but conceptually, it's always a straight line.

This is the fundamental condition for "jin". The degree to which these points are connected relates to the purity of Jin. It doesn't matter what art,weapon or form someone is working with: Their degree of mastery of jin depends on how unified these two points of contact are.
Just to reinforce the exact same point, everything Oisin has said would apply to this same demonstration by 2 of Tohei's students:

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Old 08-09-2011, 01:38 PM   #20
JW
 
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more basis for conceptual integration of linear and spiral?

OK I have something now for the real meat of the linear/spiral discussion. If I need to be clued into what started this attempted discussion (I may have missed it) then please let me know. But so far as I know, these comments still are relevant. Although, it isn't much improvement over what Dave wrote. At any rate this describes the fact that we can volitionally control our force output across time, as well as the fact that our body plan may "prefer" or influence that temporally-varying force output. Mike, this may all be silly until we get into your ramifications you alluded to.

I. What is meant by "linear?"
The term linear refers to the rate of change of a function across a domain. It means that the rate of change is constant. I take it we are talking about the direction of force produced. Of course at any one moment in time, the force is going in a straight line-- just like at any one value on the x-axis, a single, defined rate of change (derivative; slope of the function) exists for y=x as well as for y=sin(x). But it doesn't mean y=sin(x) is linear-- because that discrete value for rate of change varies across the x axis, unlike for y=x.
So-- when one says the force produced is linear and not something to be described in other ways (spiral? torsional?), what exactly is being argued? That there is no change in direction of the force across time? Of course no one could argue that, because we can change direction at will. So, we need to nail that down.

II. The rolling ball question.
Here is a series of scenerios that might be very illuminating to discuss.
1. A ball rolls across a table. The ball produces a vertical, downward, obviously linear force. The point of application of the force shifts along the table as the ball rolls. Simple.
2. A sticky ball of the same mass rolls across the table. I know there will be additional heat terms and a deceleration, but this is still a bit mysterious to me. The downward weight is the same, but does the net downward force change? (The "upstroke" on the trailing side pulling upward via the adhesive? Or I guess that pull is tangential so it is purely in the horizontal decelerating direction? Never mind, #3 and #4 below are the fun part!)
3. The same sticky ball rolls while deflating as it goes along. Now it is getting interesting. The deflation action trades internal pressure for upward pull, and there is significant reduction in downward force upon the table. The center of mass of the ball is in fact going through a braked fall while the ball rolls.
4. Now imagine situation #3 without the flat table. We can have a curved table, with sections of curvature that match the ball's radius of curvature. The table can be poorly secured to walls or foor. The 'table' surface can in some spots be a pretty severe incline, like close to vertical-- it's ok b/c the ball is sticky. Also now, the ball can breathe, not just deflate. So what happens? The table is going to get pretty worked by the ball's rotating, expanding/contracting grip. Will the forces be linear? I think the table will get pressed and pulled (linear forces?) as well as torqued.

So what is the point? When I hold my bokken, it is like the table, and I am the ball (the floor is another table). I am a pretty cool ball though because of things like hands. As I expand and contract, sink and rise, my tissues coil about as we discussed, being the nature of the human body. That bokken experiences some twisting forces that are fun to use on humans too. So how do we fit this into the conceptual framework of linear forces?

Last edited by JW : 08-09-2011 at 01:48 PM.
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Old 08-09-2011, 01:56 PM   #21
Marc Abrams
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Re: more basis for conceptual integration of linear and spiral?

Quote:
Jonathan Wong wrote: View Post
OK I have something now for the real meat of the linear/spiral discussion. If I need to be clued into what started this attempted discussion (I may have missed it) then please let me know. But so far as I know, these comments still are relevant. Although, it isn't much improvement over what Dave wrote. At any rate this describes the fact that we can volitionally control our force output across time, as well as the fact that our body plan may "prefer" or influence that temporally-varying force output. Mike, this may all be silly until we get into your ramifications you alluded to.

I. What is meant by "linear?"
The term linear refers to the rate of change of a function across a domain. It means that the rate of change is constant. I take it we are talking about the direction of force produced. Of course at any one moment in time, the force is going in a straight line-- just like at any one value on the x-axis, a single, defined rate of change (derivative; slope of the function) exists for y=x as well as for y=sin(x). But it doesn't mean y=sin(x) is linear-- because that discrete value for rate of change varies across the x axis, unlike for y=x.
So-- when one says the force produced is linear and not something to be described in other ways (spiral? torsional?), what exactly is being argued? That there is no change in direction of the force across time? Of course no one could argue that, because we can change direction at will. So, we need to nail that down.

II. The rolling ball question.
Here is a series of scenerios that might be very illuminating to discuss.
1. A ball rolls across a table. The ball produces a vertical, downward, obviously linear force. The point of application of the force shifts along the table as the ball rolls. Simple.
2. A sticky ball of the same mass rolls across the table. I know there will be additional heat terms and a deceleration, but this is still a bit mysterious to me. The downward weight is the same, but does the net downward force change? (The "upstroke" on the trailing side pulling upward via the adhesive? Or I guess that pull is tangential so it is purely in the horizontal decelerating direction? Never mind, #3 and #4 below are the fun part!)
3. The same sticky ball rolls while deflating as it goes along. Now it is getting interesting. The deflation action trades internal pressure for upward pull, and there is significant reduction in downward force upon the table. The center of mass of the ball is in fact going through a braked fall while the ball rolls.
4. Now imagine situation #3 without the flat table. We can have a curved table, with sections of curvature that match the ball's radius of curvature. The table can be poorly secured to walls or foor. The 'table' surface can in some spots be a pretty severe incline, like close to vertical-- it's ok b/c the ball is sticky. Also now, the ball can breathe, not just deflate. So what happens? The table is going to get pretty worked by the ball's rotating, expanding/contracting grip. Will the forces be linear? I think the table will get pressed and pulled (linear forces?) as well as torqued.

So what is the point? When I hold my bokken, it is like the table, and I am the ball (the floor is another table). I am a pretty cool ball though because of things like hands. As I expand and contract, sink and rise, my tissues coil about as we discussed, being the nature of the human body. That bokken experiences some twisting forces that are fun to use on humans too. So how do we fit this into the conceptual framework of linear forces?
Jonathan:

Are you including gravitational force as a constant? It seems like a lot of people do not use gravitational force when they describe what we experience as linear movement. Almost like "out of sight, out of mind."

Regards,

Marc Abrams
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Old 08-09-2011, 02:43 PM   #22
Mike Sigman
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Re: more basis for conceptual integration of linear and spiral?

Quote:
Jonathan Wong wrote: View Post
OK I have something now for the real meat of the linear/spiral discussion. If I need to be clued into what started this attempted discussion (I may have missed it) then please let me know. But so far as I know, these comments still are relevant. Although, it isn't much improvement over what Dave wrote. At any rate this describes the fact that we can volitionally control our force output across time, as well as the fact that our body plan may "prefer" or influence that temporally-varying force output. Mike, this may all be silly until we get into your ramifications you alluded to.

I. What is meant by "linear?"
The term linear refers to the rate of change of a function across a domain. It means that the rate of change is constant. I take it we are talking about the direction of force produced. Of course at any one moment in time, the force is going in a straight line-- just like at any one value on the x-axis, a single, defined rate of change (derivative; slope of the function) exists for y=x as well as for y=sin(x). But it doesn't mean y=sin(x) is linear-- because that discrete value for rate of change varies across the x axis, unlike for y=x.
So-- when one says the force produced is linear and not something to be described in other ways (spiral? torsional?), what exactly is being argued? That there is no change in direction of the force across time? Of course no one could argue that, because we can change direction at will. So, we need to nail that down.

II. The rolling ball question.
Here is a series of scenerios that might be very illuminating to discuss.
1. A ball rolls across a table. The ball produces a vertical, downward, obviously linear force. The point of application of the force shifts along the table as the ball rolls. Simple.
2. A sticky ball of the same mass rolls across the table. I know there will be additional heat terms and a deceleration, but this is still a bit mysterious to me. The downward weight is the same, but does the net downward force change? (The "upstroke" on the trailing side pulling upward via the adhesive? Or I guess that pull is tangential so it is purely in the horizontal decelerating direction? Never mind, #3 and #4 below are the fun part!)
3. The same sticky ball rolls while deflating as it goes along. Now it is getting interesting. The deflation action trades internal pressure for upward pull, and there is significant reduction in downward force upon the table. The center of mass of the ball is in fact going through a braked fall while the ball rolls.
4. Now imagine situation #3 without the flat table. We can have a curved table, with sections of curvature that match the ball's radius of curvature. The table can be poorly secured to walls or foor. The 'table' surface can in some spots be a pretty severe incline, like close to vertical-- it's ok b/c the ball is sticky. Also now, the ball can breathe, not just deflate. So what happens? The table is going to get pretty worked by the ball's rotating, expanding/contracting grip. Will the forces be linear? I think the table will get pressed and pulled (linear forces?) as well as torqued.

So what is the point? When I hold my bokken, it is like the table, and I am the ball (the floor is another table). I am a pretty cool ball though because of things like hands. As I expand and contract, sink and rise, my tissues coil about as we discussed, being the nature of the human body. That bokken experiences some twisting forces that are fun to use on humans too. So how do we fit this into the conceptual framework of linear forces?
Jonathan, when you, let's say, hold a brick in your hand using jin (and qi, but I'll keep the discussion as simple as I can), you essentially allow the support from the ground to go through your frame and hold up the brick. I.e., your body is no more than a conveyance, a structural support (remember my Baseline Parameters?). I.e., you're letting the more or less linear force (Newtonian mechanics only, please, to keep this simple) of the ground support affect the brick. You can train the body to do this while moving, also and the force on the brick is still linear. An opponent is basically a brick, regardless of any non-linear motion in your body. That's all I was talking about... the conveyance of linear forces. Can your body do other non-linear things that might affect the linear forces that you're conveying? Sure, but that's beside the point.

Mike
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Old 08-09-2011, 03:23 PM   #23
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Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"

Hi Marc, not sure I get you. I certainly agree gravitational acceleration is a constant, so the gravitational force for any given mass would be constant since the force is a function of the mass.
From a more "feeling" POV (more practical, less analytic), gravity is never out of mind for me. I feel like I am sandwiched between two things. Or anti-sandwiched, hard to say. The point is ground and gravity being present together in the body and opposite in direction, creating a physical frame of reference.

Mike, I guess torque as the result of the interplay of 2 opposing forces is just considered as being not at this level in your framework? As in, we should take it step by step? I guess I should just wait and see how you mean to present it.
This is all a little difficult because I hold my bokken and feel this torsion. I can feel that it is a direct effect of what is happening in my body, and at the same time I don't disagree with your basic examples like holding a brick with one hand. I like your description of a resultant vector that is linear and convey's the ground's support, but at the same time I know that you recognize and will eventually talk about things like the hand wanting to turn over in funekogi undo:

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
If you look at Tohei, as an example, doing Fune-kogi undo, you can see that he actually doesn't allow his arms to rotate; having watched a number of his movements over the years, I'd say that most of Tohei's movements tend to be similarly constrained and do not exemplify what is called "natural movement".
If there is a stick or a person's limb in that hand, and they allow natural movement, the stick/limb will experience torsion, in addition to the linear force of the row-stroke. I suppose I am confusing multiple things that occur together, even though they can be (should be) treated as separate phenomena. If I allow the hand to turn, I can stay connected in a more relaxed way (in fact it is unnecessary muscle use that would be what prevents the turning of the hand). In other words allowing that spiral could be seen as a way to preserve most effortlessly the connection to the ground. Maybe you agree, but think I am getting ahead of myself? Or is this just wrong to you?
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Old 08-09-2011, 03:43 PM   #24
Mike Sigman
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Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"

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Jonathan Wong wrote: View Post
I hold my bokken and feel this torsion.
Jonathan, do you agree that a system under various torsions, etc., can still system-wide convey an outside push from one side to the other, regardless of the torsional forces within the system? That's all I'm saying. I think you may be over-complicating the idea. The solidity of the ground can be conveyed through a system under various stresses. Analysing all the stresses in the system while the topic is simply the conveyance of forces is to miss the point.

Mike
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Old 08-09-2011, 05:17 PM   #25
JW
 
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Re: Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling"

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Jonathan, do you agree that a system under various torsions, etc., can still system-wide convey an outside push from one side to the other, regardless of the torsional forces within the system?
Yes, agreed. I wasn't intentionally over-complicating this, but for all I know, the reasons that things are linked in my head is the same reason as any other person's, so these reasons may be at the heart of this discussion.

Breakdown of my thought process which has been dissected here:
when you put conscious effort into moving relaxedly, trying to let the ground's strength replace your own, it is tempting to call the entirety of the result 'ground strength.' Any/all the forces that an attacker experiences when they touch you after you have practiced something like this can be tempting to be referred to with a single name. (when I do this he twists and moves to the left.. one might be tempted to say the ground strength is causing both)
But in fact there can be multiple things going on inside you that are the causes of those forces. If the way your tissues are connected when you move with relaxation and settled balance, in order to allow ground to go through you, causes your limbs (or your partner) to twist, the cause of the twist is different from the cause of the push. One is the internal connectivity and internal state of tensions... the other is the ground.
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