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Old 08-08-2011, 10:42 AM   #51
Mike Sigman
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
1) Why don't you start a thread without any reference to Dan?
Wait a second. I just started a thread, if you'll look, but it's based upon Dan's public assertion about how something works. Focusing strictly on that physical set of related questions. Let's see how it progresses.

The rest of your shot at me I'll ignore except to say that I simply asked to see what progress you've made with 'spiraling'. There is a very serious problem about the whole 'spiraling' thing that needs to be publicly discussed. If you know enough to "teach", then you should be able to contribute more to the discussion on spiraling than your character slams. So let's see your input (and the other three 'supporters') on the thread, too. The question is "how does it work?". Let's see how far that goes.

Mike Sigman

Last edited by Mike Sigman : 08-08-2011 at 10:44 AM.
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Old 08-08-2011, 10:44 AM   #52
Mike Sigman
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

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Nicholas Eschenbruch wrote: View Post
Or maybe Phi (will you?) and myself could spam the thread to death with silly animal jokes????
Why don't all of you guys contribute what you know about the subject, if you're going to jump into the thread? Even with Phi's jokes, he at least has a history of contributing useful nuggets and observations among his entries.

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-08-2011, 11:00 AM   #53
Nicholas Eschenbruch
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Why don't all of you guys contribute what you know about the subject, if you're going to jump into the thread? Even with Phi's jokes, he at least has a history of contributing useful nuggets and observations among his entries.

Mike Sigman
Sorry Mike, apologies, I got carried away by that lapdog image.
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Old 08-08-2011, 11:05 AM   #54
JW
 
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

OK I want to get to the bottom of this 'spiralling' issue but I have yet to even be convinced that there is a true disagreement in the first place:

Two people could argue about the color of a cloudless noon sky-- not because of any difference of experience, but because of word choice. How am I supposed to know if one of you is wrong about the color of the sky? (Of course, go look at it with you, but I don't think we've really hit the limits of a net forum yet).

Case in point, "linear." Dan and Mike both disagree with the idea of a foot, belly, and hand needing to be colinear. But still there's arguing.

Mike's words:

Generally, the power from the ground goes up the legs to hips and dantien and then the shortest path to the point of application.

So Mike, you have described (in this very simple example) 2 line segments, (possibly 3 if we count a segment between hip and dantain) which are not necessarily colinear with each other. In fact those segments are anchored to certain points of the body in this description, meaning one could really put severe angles between them by moving into a certain shape. So for all this "linear" talk, you have in fact described:
-a series of connected line segments
-segments having end positions that are contingent on body shape

In essence: a force percept that can project linearly through the air while also being constrained (in some locations) to follow the shape of the body. The shape of the body is agreed to be curvy: we all agree that the human body wants to express spirals, as revealed in either relaxed movement:
Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
the heavy emphasis Ueshiba placed on being very relaxed. "Spiraling" is something that happens in the qi of the body when it is done correctly.
Or in high-stakes sports:
Quote:
Eddy Wolput wrote: View Post
Alexander technique for Tennis :
The Key to Power: Spiral Movement
Spiral movement is the secret to accessing enormous untapped power in your strokes. ...
So even if this has nothing to do with chansijin, we have curves that describe movement of the body, and a force percept that tends to follow the body. In other words I can see how "linear" can sound wrong and in essence be pretty reasonable. If the human body moves in spirals when used most efficiently, and the body is made to cleanly express the ground's push continuously throughout a movement.. I am not sure what the argument is anymore. Of course a force has only one magnitude and one direction. So it is "linear." But how you use it is constrained by the way the body moves (in a spiralling shape).

I think the basis for the disagreement is not coming through in the words here.

Last edited by JW : 08-08-2011 at 11:15 AM.
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Old 08-08-2011, 11:10 AM   #55
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

Why not describe what spiraling is, as opposed to challenging the other. No one has ever done that on aikiweb. How can you say one is wrong and the other is right without taking that first step?

All else is meta-conversation, meaning only "talk about talking about the subject."
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Old 08-08-2011, 11:15 AM   #56
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

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Old 08-08-2011, 11:17 AM   #57
Marc Abrams
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Wait a second. I just started a thread, if you'll look, but it's based upon Dan's public assertion about how something works. Focusing strictly on that physical set of related questions. Let's see how it progresses.

The rest of your shot at me I'll ignore except to say that I simply asked to see what progress you've made with 'spiraling'. There is a very serious problem about the whole 'spiraling' thing that needs to be publicly discussed. If you know enough to "teach", then you should be able to contribute more to the discussion on spiraling than your character slams. So let's see your input (and the other three 'supporters') on the thread, too. The question is "how does it work?". Let's see how far that goes.

Mike Sigman
Mike:

1) You and Dan do not like or respect each other.

2) We seem to be a lot more intelligent than you take us to be in that it is painfully obvious to almost everybody out there that you are not interested in an idea, but in attempting to engage in a pissing contest with Dan VIA his idea. Do you not think that we can clearly see through what you are really trying to do? Can you seriously expect us to believe that you are simply trying to discuss an idea as opposed to opposing Dan's idea?

3) My ability to teach has absolutely NOTHING to do with your assessment of what I can or cannot do. Do not try and hide behind passive-aggressive comments directed toward a person and then complain when you are called on this behavior and you label being called on this behavior as "character slam." You and I have gone that route before in PM's to each other and we should not have to slide down that hill again.

4) My contribution to this thread is far more important than what you have started in this thread. I have asked that BOTH OF YOU refrain from referencing and responding to each other, BECAUSE of the nature of the lack of relationship between the two of you.

Even if your take on this topic was right, does not make the pissing contest that YOU started right.

Marc Abrams
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Old 08-08-2011, 11:33 AM   #58
Mike Sigman
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

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Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Mike:

1) You and Dan do not like or respect each other.

2) We seem to be a lot more intelligent than you take us to be in that it is painfully obvious to almost everybody out there that you are not interested in an idea, but in attempting to engage in a pissing contest with Dan VIA his idea. Do you not think that we can clearly see through what you are really trying to do? Can you seriously expect us to believe that you are simply trying to discuss an idea as opposed to opposing Dan's idea?

3) My ability to teach has absolutely NOTHING to do with your assessment of what I can or cannot do. Do not try and hide behind passive-aggressive comments directed toward a person and then complain when you are called on this behavior and you label being called on this behavior as "character slam." You and I have gone that route before in PM's to each other and we should not have to slide down that hill again.

4) My contribution to this thread is far more important than what you have started in this thread. I have asked that BOTH OF YOU refrain from referencing and responding to each other, BECAUSE of the nature of the lack of relationship between the two of you.

Even if your take on this topic was right, does not make the pissing contest that YOU started right.

Marc Abrams
I started another thread that directly deals with the issue. Jonathan, would you do me a favor and copy your post/thoughts over to the other thread, please? You make some good points.

Marc, I'm tired of your personal commentary. However, to be fair and as has been pointed out to me, you do these types of attacks on others, occasionally, so it's not just me.

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-08-2011, 11:36 AM   #59
Mike Sigman
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

Incidentally, the thread I started, one which is meant to discuss purely facts and zero personality, is titled Restart on Jin/kokyu and "Spiraling".

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-08-2011, 12:39 PM   #60
Marc Abrams
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I started another thread that directly deals with the issue. Jonathan, would you do me a favor and copy your post/thoughts over to the other thread, please? You make some good points.

Marc, I'm tired of your personal commentary. However, to be fair and as has been pointed out to me, you do these types of attacks on others, occasionally, so it's not just me.

Mike Sigman
Mike:

1) It does not matter where you start a thread. Maybe one day you will be capable of starting a thread as simply an idea posited or a position stated. Obviously, you are not there yet.

2) Me attacking? I think these are YOUR words in regards to somebody else on this forum: " I'll bet you lay this sort of silly guilt trip on your students. The problem with a public forum, your videos, etc., is that people can judge for themselves without having to bear the burdens you impose. Wear that Rasta Cap, Bruddah.... you just went on my ignore list. PLONK.

Mike Sigman"

Seems to me like a pretty clear example of projective identification on your part Mike. As to you seeming to be fair, I think you should take a good hard luck at how you treat people on your own forum who did not agree with your position.

Marc Abrams

Last edited by Marc Abrams : 08-08-2011 at 12:40 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 08-08-2011, 12:53 PM   #61
Mike Sigman
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

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Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Mike:

1) It does not matter where you start a thread. Maybe one day you will be capable of starting a thread as simply an idea posited or a position stated. Obviously, you are not there yet.

2) Me attacking? I think these are YOUR words in regards to somebody else on this forum: " I'll bet you lay this sort of silly guilt trip on your students. The problem with a public forum, your videos, etc., is that people can judge for themselves without having to bear the burdens you impose. Wear that Rasta Cap, Bruddah.... you just went on my ignore list. PLONK.

Mike Sigman"

Seems to me like a pretty clear example of projective identification on your part Mike. As to you seeming to be fair, I think you should take a good hard luck at how you treat people on your own forum who did not agree with your position.

Marc Abrams
Still not a single factual contribution on the topic in any of your posts, Marc.
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Old 08-08-2011, 01:11 PM   #62
Aikibu
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Still not a single factual contribution on the topic in any of your posts, Marc.
Nor in yours...Make no mistake If there is one consistency in every negative attack posted here in the last three years in any thread you've posted in or started it's that you're an active participant.

On my ignore list from this point forward.

William Hazen
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Old 08-08-2011, 05:13 PM   #63
danielajames
 
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

A quick thankyou to everyone that participated, I got some nice viewpoints (even chimed in a little) and it got me thinking a bit. Sure the Signal to Noise ratio is variable at times, not that I always know what is signal and what is noise, but thats part of discovery

FWIW In science I have had some of the greatest of learning opportunities during question time at conference presentations from many view points including the podium, as poser of questions (yes sometimes they are leading questions), as a bystander and some times as the chair (adjudicator). Sometimes the followup or the 'make up' sessions in the corridors, at a tea break or over a meal have been the best, in fact I have formed some life long collaborations and friendships from these.

dan

Daniel James, Brisbane Aikido Republic: AikiPhysics, Aikido Brisbane news,
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Old 08-08-2011, 05:58 PM   #64
sakumeikan
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I think you're probably right, Joe. In years past I spent a great deal of time explaining things in very detailed ways, posting diagrams, and so on.... on this forum and others. There just comes a time when it's hard to work up the initiative to repeat efforts that have been made numerous times in the past.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
Dear Mike,
Thanks for the answer given,As a relative newcomer on this forum no doubt I missed your earlier explanations etc.I will try and pick up on my lack of knowledge inC.M.Ai n order to converse /discuss important issues brought here by you and Mr Harden, cheers, Joe
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Old 08-08-2011, 06:03 PM   #65
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

Hi Marc
Mike is not interested in the truth do not waste time with him.If he ever has the courage to experience Dan or my chen teacher Wang Hai jun his motivation may change.I think the old style aikido had similar power and skill like these guys

stan
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Old 08-08-2011, 06:58 PM   #66
Mike Sigman
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

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Stan Baker wrote: View Post
Hi Marc
Mike is not interested in the truth do not waste time with him.If he ever has the courage to experience Dan or my chen teacher Wang Hai jun his motivation may change.I think the old style aikido had similar power and skill like these guys

stan
Hmmmm.... is this the Wang Hai Jun that Dan Harden said he could beat in a fight? Why study with Wang Hai Jun, Stan? After all the comments I've heard from the WHJ students about your understanding, you're probably wasting your time. Study with Dan and forget these guys who don't understand CMA's as well as Dan.

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-08-2011, 07:16 PM   #67
Marc Abrams
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

Quote:
Stan Baker wrote: View Post
Hi Marc
Mike is not interested in the truth do not waste time with him.If he ever has the courage to experience Dan or my chen teacher Wang Hai jun his motivation may change.I think the old style aikido had similar power and skill like these guys

stan
Stan:

I genuinely do believe that Mike is interested in seeking "truth" as he sees it to be (like all of us). Mike is entitled to talk about his ideas, right or wrong. We all can benefit from a "clean" analysis of ideas. It would be nice if Mike could somehow find a way to separate his personal beliefs, likes and dislikes and opinions of others, from ideas. Mike is his own worst enemy in this regard. He is too personally invested in trying to prove himself right and Dan wrong so that it taints his thinking. That is why he throws people off of his forum when they disagree with him when he engages in attacks on other people.

I have no problem pointing this out to him and I do not consider that to be a waste of time. Hopefully, the more people that continue to call him on this, the more likely that it is that Mike will stop playing that game that many of us are sick and tired of seeing replayed.

I do not put forth my take on things with him, because I do not see him as being capable of separating my ideas from his unhealthy need to attack me and others for not agreeing with him. To that end, it is not worth my time, nor do I particularly care what he thinks of my ideas. Mike is no more an authority in the Chinese community on his ideas than he is here. He has some well-thought opinions, be they right or wrong, and they do stimulate other people to think about things that can help in deepening our knowledge. Maybe he will be able to move beyond this stuck point and contribute to the knowledge base without simultaneously having to prop himself up at the expense of others. For now, I am not holding my breath that is capable or ready to do so.

Regards,

Marc Abrams
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Old 08-08-2011, 07:16 PM   #68
stan baker
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

Hi Mike
you do not know any of Wang Hai Jun students.I think this is good time to clarify your understanding of internal Martial Arts, and how it applies to application and fighting,but you will have hands on experience for that to happen. Dan Harden and Wang Hai Jun are two
great Martial artists and teachers if you were not so unlucky you could study with them.

stan
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Old 08-08-2011, 07:27 PM   #69
Mike Sigman
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Stan: [[snip comment]]
Marc... do you honestly think that no one notices that your comments are poorly disguised personal attacks? Most comments are in the range of "bizarre" that I've heard. Perhaps Jun doesn't notice, as you seem to assume?

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-08-2011, 07:30 PM   #70
Mike Sigman
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

Quote:
Stan Baker wrote: View Post
Hi Mike
you do not know any of Wang Hai Jun students
Actually, you are quite wrong, Stan. In fact, I know a number of them and you are considered a joke as you go around and correct peoples' postures. Now..... could you go back to the topic?

I'm hoping that Jun will soon close this thread since Dan's lapdogs have come into play. "Spiraling" is gone as an issue and "Attack Mike" has taken over. Only once has Dan ever commented on his lapdogs. While this works with people like the poor guy from Florida whose post was beaten into quietude by Dan's lapdogs, I think it's time for that sort of thing to stop on AikiWeb. Or perhaps, as a friend of mine in Ikeda's dojo noted.... the bad-guys have won.

Mike Sigman

Last edited by Mike Sigman : 08-08-2011 at 07:33 PM.
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Old 08-08-2011, 07:38 PM   #71
Marc Abrams
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Marc... do you honestly think that no one notices that your comments are poorly disguised personal attacks? Most comments are in the range of "bizarre" that I've heard. Perhaps Jun doesn't notice, as you seem to assume?

Mike Sigman
Mike:

If I were concerned about people not noticing my posts, I would not post them. You are entitled, like the other unknown people you refer to, to what ever opinions you and they would like to make.

I can only hope that Jun notices and takes notice of my original proposition. That is that both you and Dan refrain from referencing the other person or responding to the other person. The posts on this thread support that notion. As a matter of fact, it is the response of well-thought people like William Hazen, that speak volumes.

When you and I engaged in personal attacks, it was through PM's. We both know where that one ended up. The name calling (eg. - lap dog) came from you. I have no need to engage in that game with you again. The continuing issue, as I see it, is your unwillingness or inability to posit an idea in absence of attacking people who do not share that same opinion. That pattern continues unabated......

Marc Abrams
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Old 08-08-2011, 07:48 PM   #72
Mike Sigman
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

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Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
The name calling (eg. - lap dog) came from you.
Actually, it didn't, Marc. It came from another well-known poster on AikiWeb. You should understand that.

If you get a chance, please stop by and show me how much you've improved. If you can't do that, I'll understand.

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-08-2011, 08:06 PM   #73
Marc Abrams
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Actually, it didn't, Marc. It came from another well-known poster on AikiWeb. You should understand that.

If you get a chance, please stop by and show me how much you've improved. If you can't do that, I'll understand.

Mike Sigman
Mike:

You don't seem to know when to stop do you? It was your post, wasn't it that referenced me as a "lap dog." If some other "well-known poster on Aikiweb" wants to stand behind that comment in a public post, then I will wait and respond accordingly.

As to your veiled threat about stopping by, what don't you understand about my not really caring one way or another what you think about me, or my budo skills. Again, It was you who brought up my presence in Durango and I clearly outlined things for you might want to reference that post again. If you can't abide by those guidelines, I'll understand and respond accordingly.

Marc Abrams
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Old 08-08-2011, 08:10 PM   #74
Mike Sigman
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

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As to your veiled threat about stopping by,
No veiled threat at all, Marc. Just like last time I'll be the usual friendly and diplomatic me. If you have improved, please stop by. If you haven't, please continue teaching.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-08-2011, 08:13 PM   #75
Marc Abrams
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

Quote:
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No veiled threat at all, Marc. Just like last time I'll be the usual friendly and diplomatic me. If you have improved, please stop by. If you haven't, please continue teaching.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
Mike,

Thanks for your kind offer while sending a pm trying to instigate me. Once again, I will kindly decline your offer that does not interest me and yes, I will continue teaching.

Regards,

Marc Abrams
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