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Old 02-23-2011, 02:13 PM   #51
Thomas Campbell
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Re: Silk reeling

For anyone in the Toronto area who would be interested, later this summer there will be an opportunity to explore silk-reeling in Chen taiji with Wang Fengming (Feng Zhiqiang's son-in-law) and Li Lairen (disciple of both Feng and Zhu Tiancai). Charles Tauber, a student of Li, posted this announcement:

Chen Style Taijiquan & Silk Reeling Seminar
With
Wang Fengming and Li Lairen
July 30 to August 2, 2011
Toronto, Ontario


One of the defining characteristics of Chen style Taijiquan (Tai Chi Chuan) is the spiraling action that forms the foundation for all of its movements. The spiraling action, known as silk reeling or chan ssu jin, is what unites the parts of the body to produce whole-body motion and is the mechanism for conveying energy (qi or jin) from the center of the body, the dan tian, to the extremities. Without the foundation of being able to correctly unite the parts of the body in unified spiral motion and convey energy to the point of application, the martial applications of Chen style Taijiquan are largely ineffective. In a series of four progressive sessions held over four days, Wang Feng Ming and Li Lairen will teach the foundation of silk reeling, its use in Taijiquan forms and its martial application.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tvTJ...layer_embedded

In the first session, held on July 30th 2011, instructed by Master Wang Fengming, a small number of isolated exercises will be the vehicle for learning what silk reeling is and how it is used in martial application. By focusing on a small number of exercises, students will be able to obtain an in-depth understanding of what silk reeling is, how to properly perform it and how it is manifest in the martial applications within Chen style Taijiquan. Students will begin by learning the exercises solo and then will be taught how to martially apply what is learned in each exercise while working with a partner.

In the second session, held on July 31st 2011, instructed by Master Li Lairen, a small number of movements from Chen style Taijiquan forms will be taught and corrected in detail, including the silk reeling actions essential to those movements. Students will then work with a partner and be taught how to effectively apply those movements martially, including sparring, self-defense and joint locking (qin na). Although the second session builds upon what is learned in the first, students may attend either one of the two sessions or both.

The third and fourth sessions, held on August 1st and 2nd 2011, will be dedicated to foundational topics and will include refining movement and postures within Chen style Taijiquan.

All sessions will be held at Chen Style Taijiquan Workshop of Canada, 596 Gordon Baker Road, Toronto, Ontario.

Wang Fengming is a disciple of Feng Zhiqiang, 18th generation successor to Chen Style Taijiquan and of Liu Xinghan, 4th generation successor to Baquazhang. He started martial arts training and practice at age eight in China. He has studied and taught martial arts for several decades, and is an internationally reputed practitioner of Taiji, Qigong and Baguazhang, and is a renowned martial arts writer. His full biography can be found at http://www.worldtaiji.com.

Li Lairen began his martial arts training at the age of eight, learning Nanqan, Shaolin Luohanquan and Shaolin Qinna from his grandfather. He later learned Baguazhang and Iron Palm from Xu Jinsheng. Beginning in 1983, Master Li learned Chen Style Taijiquan, first with Zhu Tiancai and then as a disciple of Feng Zhiqiang. Subsequently, he learned internal alchemy, sitting meditation, breathing exercises, Tianyuan Qigong and Hunyuan standing meditation from Master Qingyuan Taoyin. Li Lairen is the founder and principle teacher of Chen Style Taiji Workshop Canada. His full biography can be found at http://www.chentaijiquan.ca.
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Old 02-23-2011, 02:20 PM   #52
Budd
 
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Re: Silk reeling

That's not far from me and I'd like to make part of that, will inquire to get more info.

Quote:
Thomas Campbell wrote: View Post
For anyone in the Toronto area who would be interested, later this summer there will be an opportunity to explore silk-reeling in Chen taiji with Wang Fengming (Feng Zhiqiang's son-in-law) and Li Lairen (disciple of both Feng and Zhu Tiancai). Charles Tauber, a student of Li, posted this announcement:

Chen Style Taijiquan & Silk Reeling Seminar
With
Wang Fengming and Li Lairen
July 30 to August 2, 2011
Toronto, Ontario


One of the defining characteristics of Chen style Taijiquan (Tai Chi Chuan) is the spiraling action that forms the foundation for all of its movements. The spiraling action, known as silk reeling or chan ssu jin, is what unites the parts of the body to produce whole-body motion and is the mechanism for conveying energy (qi or jin) from the center of the body, the dan tian, to the extremities. Without the foundation of being able to correctly unite the parts of the body in unified spiral motion and convey energy to the point of application, the martial applications of Chen style Taijiquan are largely ineffective. In a series of four progressive sessions held over four days, Wang Feng Ming and Li Lairen will teach the foundation of silk reeling, its use in Taijiquan forms and its martial application.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tvTJ...layer_embedded

In the first session, held on July 30th 2011, instructed by Master Wang Fengming, a small number of isolated exercises will be the vehicle for learning what silk reeling is and how it is used in martial application. By focusing on a small number of exercises, students will be able to obtain an in-depth understanding of what silk reeling is, how to properly perform it and how it is manifest in the martial applications within Chen style Taijiquan. Students will begin by learning the exercises solo and then will be taught how to martially apply what is learned in each exercise while working with a partner.

In the second session, held on July 31st 2011, instructed by Master Li Lairen, a small number of movements from Chen style Taijiquan forms will be taught and corrected in detail, including the silk reeling actions essential to those movements. Students will then work with a partner and be taught how to effectively apply those movements martially, including sparring, self-defense and joint locking (qin na). Although the second session builds upon what is learned in the first, students may attend either one of the two sessions or both.

The third and fourth sessions, held on August 1st and 2nd 2011, will be dedicated to foundational topics and will include refining movement and postures within Chen style Taijiquan.

All sessions will be held at Chen Style Taijiquan Workshop of Canada, 596 Gordon Baker Road, Toronto, Ontario.

Wang Fengming is a disciple of Feng Zhiqiang, 18th generation successor to Chen Style Taijiquan and of Liu Xinghan, 4th generation successor to Baquazhang. He started martial arts training and practice at age eight in China. He has studied and taught martial arts for several decades, and is an internationally reputed practitioner of Taiji, Qigong and Baguazhang, and is a renowned martial arts writer. His full biography can be found at http://www.worldtaiji.com.

Li Lairen began his martial arts training at the age of eight, learning Nanqan, Shaolin Luohanquan and Shaolin Qinna from his grandfather. He later learned Baguazhang and Iron Palm from Xu Jinsheng. Beginning in 1983, Master Li learned Chen Style Taijiquan, first with Zhu Tiancai and then as a disciple of Feng Zhiqiang. Subsequently, he learned internal alchemy, sitting meditation, breathing exercises, Tianyuan Qigong and Hunyuan standing meditation from Master Qingyuan Taoyin. Li Lairen is the founder and principle teacher of Chen Style Taiji Workshop Canada. His full biography can be found at http://www.chentaijiquan.ca.
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Old 02-23-2011, 05:56 PM   #53
Thomas Campbell
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Re: Silk reeling

Quote:
Mark Kruger wrote: View Post
Thomas, your posts are great. Thank you.
Thanks for the interest, Mark. I hope the value to aikido of internal training from silk-reeling and other practices continues to become more clear, on this thread and others. I won't be contributing much in the near future, though, as I'll be on the road in Europe in March and April. But there are plenty of positive contributors to this forum exploring "internal skills" and their application to aikido, so I expect some worthwhile discussions will happen.

Cheers.
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Old 02-23-2011, 06:40 PM   #54
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Re: Silk reeling

Quote:
Thomas Campbell wrote: View Post
hi Matthew:

I'll give you what little I know of silk-reeling from the taijiquan perspective. It's not a practice specific to aikido, as far as I know, but training it may provide a better sense of internal connection and whole-body coordinated movement.

The reference to chousi jin comes from the (Wu Yuxiang) "taiji classics" of the mid- to late-1800s. The term chansi jin (silk-reeling) does not seem to predate its use by Chen Xin in his book on his family's martial art (Chen style taijiquan), written in the early 1900s, from which comes these well-known (in taiji circles) images:





Chen Xin writes about these images:

[i]"Coiling power (Chan Jin) is all over the body. Putting it most simply, there is coiling inward (Li Chan) and coiling outward (Wai Chan), which both appear once (one) moves. There is one (kind of coiling) when left hand is in front and right hand is behind; (or when) right hand is in front and left hand is behind; this one closes (He) (the hands) with one conforming (Shun) (movement). There is also one (coiling) that closes the inside of the left (side of the body) and the back of the right (side of the body), and another which uses the through-the-back power (Fanbei Jin) and closes towards the back. All of them should be moved naturally according to the (specific) postures.
I wonder, Thomas, what you might think of these diagrams in comparison to those of the Chen school -- which I have used to relate certain aspects of aiki and "spherical rotation" as Dosshu described it.

http://www.aikiweb.com/gallery/showp...t&limit=recent

http://www.aikiweb.com/gallery/showp...t&limit=recent

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 02-23-2011, 07:29 PM   #55
Thomas Campbell
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Re: Silk reeling

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
I wonder, Thomas, what you might think of these diagrams in comparison to those of the Chen school -- which I have used to relate certain aspects of aiki and "spherical rotation" as Dosshu described it.

http://www.aikiweb.com/gallery/showp...t&limit=recent

http://www.aikiweb.com/gallery/showp...t&limit=recent
I will be on the road soon and won't be on the forum much if at all, Erick, in case this discussion takes off over the next several weeks. But I will venture that it is an interesting comparison, to the extent I understand it. I'm not completely familiar with shear as it would be expressed in the human body, so I won't venture an opinion on the "shear spirals" in one of the sphere images.

It seems like the compression and tension spirals could map onto Chen Xin's drawings--particularly in connection with the "coiling inward" and "coiling outward" described in the translation of Chen Xin's writing mentioned above:

Coiling power (Chan Jin) is all over the body. Putting it most simply, there is coiling inward (Li Chan) and coiling outward (Wai Chan), which both appear once (one) moves. There is one (kind of coiling) when left hand is in front and right hand is behind; (or when) right hand is in front and left hand is behind; this one closes (He) (the hands) with one conforming (Shun) (movement). There is also one (coiling) that closes the inside of the left (side of the body) and the back of the right (side of the body), and another which uses the through-the-back power (Fanbei Jin) and closes towards the back. All of them should be moved naturally according to the (specific) postures.

As Joep pointed out previously, the coiling and spiraling is associated with opening and closing of different parts of the body. The suggestion is that the coiling follows the "natural" internal lay of connective and other tissues. The question is what the primary driver of the coiling is. Is the "close" and "open" simply compression and expansion of (connective and other) tissues that are laid out in a spiraling pattern . . . what drives the compression and expansion? You can work with some of the slow SREs of Chen Xiaowang with (gentle) reverse breathing and connect the action of the diaphragm with the sensations of stretch and contraction as you move through the pattern. You can work a slow, gentle version of the "Squatting Monkey" exercise of Dai Family Xin Yi Liu He Quan (with forward-leaning "gongbu" step) and feel reverse breathing helping to drive compression and expansion along a vertical (sagittal) ellipse. There are other exercises outside of the SREs that help a beginner both feel the internal connection and begin to condition it (partly as a result of coordinations developed in the exercises). I don't really know what aikido exercises might have the same potential--maybe funakogi undo? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBVxveyrsMY)

Since I don't train aikido (six months more than 25 years ago doesn't really count), I can't really speak to the derivation of your diagrams from what Dosshu means by "spherical rotation," etc. But the comparison of the diagrams themselves with Chen Xin's drawings is interesting.

Last edited by Thomas Campbell : 02-23-2011 at 07:33 PM.
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Old 02-23-2011, 11:29 PM   #56
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Re: Silk reeling

Glad to see this thread is back on track. Nice one Tom all you need now is a cape and a catchphrase then you'd be known as "Super Tom"!
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Old 02-24-2011, 11:40 AM   #57
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Re: Silk reeling

Quote:
Thomas Campbell wrote: View Post
The original post asked about silk-reeling, which is a prominent feature of--although certainly not exclusive to--Chen taijiquan. The logical direction for discussion would include what relevance and benefit SRE training might have for aikido.
I don't think there's much relevance or benefit. I haven't done a full study of Ueshiba's movements, but I'm quite sure he doesn't exhibit the whole-body spiraling of Chen taijiquan. There is some spiraling in the arms, for instance when turning the hands over in the rowing exercise, but that's quite common, just think of the fist turning over in a Karate punch.

Quote:
To that end, Joep, any conditioning practices for internal connection that in your view are fundamental to silk-reeling and that you might be willing to describe here would be helpful.
The bold typeface makes me feel a bit like I'm being challenged. Is that intentional?

I think the makko ho could be a nice start: http://www.rianvisser.nl/shiatsu/e_doin.htm. I don't think it can get more simple: stretch some meridians and do reverse breathing. Unfortunately, just assuming these postures while keeping your stomach form expanding when breathing is not a guarantee you're actually doing it correctly.

Secondly, I think aikido has plenty of good breathing exercises with arm movement that would make more sense from an aikido perspective than the SRe exercises.
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Old 02-24-2011, 02:25 PM   #58
Thomas Campbell
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Re: Silk reeling

Quote:
Joep Schuurkes wrote: View Post
I don't think there's much relevance or benefit. I haven't done a full study of Ueshiba's movements, but I'm quite sure he doesn't exhibit the whole-body spiraling of Chen taijiquan. There is some spiraling in the arms, for instance when turning the hands over in the rowing exercise, but that's quite common, just think of the fist turning over in a Karate punch.
I think you're right about Ueshiba not exhibiting the "whole-body spiraling of Chen taijiquan." To me that's neither good nor bad; aikido and Chen taiji are two different arts using different approaches to body methods (Chinese shen fa). And your remark about limited relevance/benefit of SREs to aikido is a good caution for aikidokas looking outside of aikido for "internal" exercises.

Quote:
The bold typeface makes me feel a bit like I'm being challenged. Is that intentional?
No. I have neither the time nor desire for ridicule or confrontation, and this forum doesn't benefit from that kind of exchange. I was only asking if you had specific practices or exercises to suggest with respect to the "conditioning" of internal connections that you'd written about yesterday as important to silk-reeling:

"The internal connections need to be conditioned and the coordination to move in accordance with these connections needs to be developed. . . . . Once can contract the frontside of the body with the dantien/hara as center to 'close' the body. One can also contract the backside of the body, again with the dantien/hara as center to 'open' the body. This opening and closing of the body can only be done if the internal connections of your body have been conditioned sufficiently to guide the movement. And if you allow these connections to fully define your movement, you'll get the typical spiraling movements of silk-reeling." (bold added for emphasis)

I was curious about what exercises you use and could recommend for conditioning of internal connections with respect to silk-reeling.

With respect to aikido:

Quote:
I think the makko ho could be a nice start: http://www.rianvisser.nl/shiatsu/e_doin.htm. I don't think it can get more simple: stretch some meridians and do reverse breathing. Unfortunately, just assuming these postures while keeping your stomach form expanding when breathing is not a guarantee you're actually doing it correctly.

Secondly, I think aikido has plenty of good breathing exercises with arm movement that would make more sense from an aikido perspective than the SRe exercises.
I agree. Of course, reverse breathing is not simply keeping the stomach from expanding when breathing. I'd mentioned funakogi undo before. Playing around with it while doing reverse breathing seems to engage internal connections to some extent. The flexion of the wrists tightens up connection through the shoulders to the back.
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Old 02-25-2011, 04:45 PM   #59
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Silk reeling

Quote:
Thomas Campbell wrote: View Post
I think you're right about Ueshiba not exhibiting the "whole-body spiraling of Chen taijiquan." To me that's neither good nor bad; aikido and Chen taiji are two different arts using different approaches to body methods (Chinese shen fa). And your remark about limited relevance/benefit of SREs to aikido is a good caution for aikidokas looking outside of aikido for "internal" exercises.
...
"The internal connections need to be conditioned and the coordination to move in accordance with these connections needs to be developed. . . . . Once can contract the frontside of the body with the dantien/hara as center to 'close' the body. One can also contract the backside of the body, again with the dantien/hara as center to 'open' the body. This opening and closing of the body can only be done if the internal connections of your body have been conditioned sufficiently to guide the movement. And if you allow these connections to fully define your movement, you'll get the typical spiraling movements of silk-reeling." (bold added for emphasis)
I began a reply to work out some further elaboration to some of your observations above. Then I found it began to run at such a length that I just made it my next blogpost to avoid clobbering the whole thread.

Please fee free to review and comment on any points of further interest.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 02-27-2011, 01:16 AM   #60
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Silk reeling

Hi folks,
Firstly, thank you to everyone for offereing your understanding and thinking on this. I'm a hobbyist, at best, but I do deeply enjoy trying to wrap my mind around things and I've been given a lot of good food for thought. Whether it's wise to do so or not, I do try mimicking different exercises in order to see what I can see. I don't take them too seriously and always assume I'm missing crucial aspects, but I've found this approach rewarding...if in no other way than I enjoy the feeling I get from moving meditations...which often resets my attitude and makes me a better chess player, skier, guitar player, dad, etc.
Thank you again. I've been working some odd hours lately, so please forgive my lack of participation in this thread I started. I wouldn't have much to offer anyway, but I do intend to ask some more questions after I've read and "absorbed" a bit more.

Quote:
I think funakogi undo is useful as a training exercise, for hips to get power down and out of the shoulders, but since Matthew is connected to a Shinto Shrine, maybe he would explain the breathing aspect, the ey-ho and ey-sa chant if that is the one he uses, and the purification aspect from Shinto, or does his group do this differently?
My experience here is very slight. I trained very seriously about 10 years ago for about 2 years, but I was never very knowledgeable. I'm 5th kyu in Rev. Barrish's system and very out of practice now. My understanding is very superficial as a result. That said, my understanding of the practice is pretty simple: extend intent throughout the body, focusing primarily on connection to hara (to and from various parts of my body, based on whatever my mind happened to be paying attention to at the moment), the Earth and Heaven...and try to keep up with sensei. The thing which stands out the most about torifuneundo is how out of breath I would get during the "sa" portion. I'm not sure if that even means anything, but I felt like I could do "yie yie" and "ei ho" all day long. For some reason "yie sa" always left me breathing heavier and straining to keep going with full effort.
It's hard to know how to compare it with silk reeling, though visually I get the sense that torifuneundo might be more up/down oriented. Ideally I'm sure you're extending in all directions, but that's my limited impression.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 02-27-2011 at 01:25 AM.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 02-27-2011, 07:55 AM   #61
Mike Sigman
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Re: Silk reeling

Quote:
Doug Campbell wrote: View Post
hi Matthew:

Silk-reeling, or chansi jin, is related to but distinct from silk-drawing or chousi jin. I mention this initially to help clarify what often becomes confused in discussions of taijiquan.
There is a big difference between Chousi (sounds like "Cho Ssu) jin (generally "force/strength skill") and Chan si (sounds like "Chahn Ssu") jin. The former means "pulling silk skill" and the latter means "reeling silk skill". For many years, starting in the early 1900's, Yang-style Taiji advocates publicly stated that the Yang-style used pulling-silk and the Chen style has always historically used the "reeling silk", although of course there are a number of martial-styles that use and have used reeling silk energy/skill over the many centuries. The problem with the pulling-silk idea is that there are some gaps in the movements that will have to be made-up for with the use of normal strength, mainly due to the fact that "pulling silk" doesn't wind and coil in the way the body's "natural movement" does. In other words, the natural lay of muscles and tendons, bones and ligaments, etc., causes the body to wind and unwind always, to some degree. A system of movement which doesn't follow the natural lay of the body's components is not "natural" in the desired classical sense. Movements which are "natural" follow the natural lay of the body's movements.

As a simple example of movement, as I relaxedly reach my hand/arm forward in front of its shoulder, the connection of my triceps area to my back (via muscle and connective tissue) will tend to rotate my elbow upward, so my hand will turn slightly because of this. That would be a very rudimentary example of natural winding. If, on the other hand, I just reach my hand forward and don't allow the arm to rotate, that would be an example of an arm that is still 'connected' but which is constrained to the "pulling silk" type of example (again very rudimentary and not complete).

If you look at Tohei, as an example, doing Fune-kogi undo, you can see that he actually doesn't allow his arms to rotate; having watched a number of his movements over the years, I'd say that most of Tohei's movements tend to be similarly constrained and do not exemplify what is called "natural movement". Does Tohei use kokyu/jin and ki/suit? Yes, of course he does. But his movements aren't of the "reeling silk" (more properly, the "Six Harmonies movement") type, so while Six Harmonies movement practices can be very helpful for the full development of the body in the Yin-Yang sense, it's not necessarily an aspect that is important to Aikido practice.

"Pulling Silk" practices would be an expected and normal part of Aikido and any other Japanese martial arts that are derivative of the "ju" type movement. Most of the Aiki Taiso, from what I can see in people like Tohei Sensei, Ueshiba Sensei, and others, are pretty good examples of good kokyu and "pulling silk" type practice. People walking around in some of the old Judo katas holding their arms up and out to the sides almost like airplanes are doing a form of pulling-silk training.

Is there any real "winding" in the Six-Harmonies/Reeling-Silk sense in Aikido? In a way, because "pulling silk" is actually sort of a shortened variation of six-harmonies movement, there are some unavoidable aspects of "winding" movement, but its not stressed in Aikido, not that I've ever been able to see (nice topic for a future debate).

The human body being what it is, six-harmonies movement is simply the unavoidable pinnacle of human movement, so there's nothing wrong with anyone practicing it if they know how. My point was just that insofar as Aikido goes, it's not a necessity.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 02-27-2011, 03:13 PM   #62
Gary David
 
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Re: Silk reeling

Mike
Could not sayu undo, practiced as a one side exercise which is closer to the actual application, incorporate many aspects of silk reeling, winding, and six harmonies movements?
Gary
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Old 02-27-2011, 03:33 PM   #63
Mike Sigman
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Re: Silk reeling

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Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Mike
Could not sayu undo, practiced as a one side exercise which is closer to the actual application, incorporate many aspects of silk reeling, winding, and six harmonies movements?
Gary
Gary, of course it *could* incorporate aspects of reeling silk, if someone wanted to put it in there. Someone with really good six-harmonies movements can put it in there unconsciously, if they're shown sayu undo.

If someone wanted to practice reeling-silk movement in order to train their hara-centered movement more optimally, sayu undo would be OK, but probably the easiest places to insert it would be in suburi or in the wrist-exercises like this one:


Note that in that picture from "This is Aikido", Tohei is indicating with the arrows that the resistance and training at the wrist is originating from out of the hara (coming out to the wrist) as opposed to letting the applied forces go down into the hara.

Or I can think of another couple of exercises where you'd also bring the power of the dantien out to the hands, feet, etc. But essentially the point would be that these kinds of skills can be put into any and all Aikido movements, including sayu undo.

2 cents.

Mike Sigman
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Old 02-27-2011, 03:46 PM   #64
Gary David
 
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Re: Silk reeling

Mike
Thanks for the input. I am trying to incorporate some aspects of what I understand of six harmonies movement, winding, and such in the teaching relaxed, connected and effective movement in applying sayu.
Gary
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Old 02-28-2011, 05:09 PM   #65
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Re: Silk reeling

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
The human body being what it is, six-harmonies movement is simply the unavoidable pinnacle of human movement, so there's nothing wrong with anyone practicing it if they know how.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
Mike,

Can you link a video of anyone who you think displays a good example of six-harmonies?

thanks,
Tenyu
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Old 02-28-2011, 11:26 PM   #66
Rob Watson
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Re: Silk reeling

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Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
... displays a good example of six-harmonies?
http://www.chenxiaowang.com/

Goggle, youtube, buy his vids and observe. Then go grab him. There are likely some better but not sure they offer instructional vids for sale.

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Old 03-01-2011, 12:34 AM   #67
Tenyu
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Re: Silk reeling

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
http://www.chenxiaowang.com/

Goggle, youtube, buy his vids and observe. Then go grab him. There are likely some better but not sure they offer instructional vids for sale.
I've seen some of his videos and linked one in another thread. I misread what Mike wrote and assumed six-harmonies referred to a specific action different from reeling silk. I can also clearly see what Chen Xiaowang's doing on video so there's no need to grab, touch, or feel him to find out.
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Old 03-01-2011, 01:34 PM   #68
Mike Sigman
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Re: Silk reeling

Quote:
Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
I can also clearly see what Chen Xiaowang's doing on video so there's no need to grab, touch, or feel him to find out.
Well, there you go, then. My heart has been warmed by the number of people that already understand and can do these things.

Mike Sigman

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Old 03-01-2011, 01:38 PM   #69
HL1978
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Re: Silk reeling

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Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
I've seen some of his videos and linked one in another thread. I misread what Mike wrote and assumed six-harmonies referred to a specific action different from reeling silk. I can also clearly see what Chen Xiaowang's doing on video so there's no need to grab, touch, or feel him to find out.
Perhaps it is because I have a relatively low level of skill, but when I went to one of his silk reeling seminars, I had no idea what he was doing. It probably did not help that I had zero silk reeling experience either so I had to learn the choreography.

Its probably easier to see in someone with a lot more overt movement.
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Old 03-01-2011, 04:12 PM   #70
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Silk reeling

Here's a Chen site I came across, some years ago. It used to have video clips, but, unfortunately, the silk-reeling one seems to be deactivated for now. Still, the information may be of interest.

http://www.taichichen.com/chenresour...deos.htm#Vid13

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 03-01-2011 at 04:16 PM.
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Old 03-02-2011, 09:47 AM   #71
Mike Sigman
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Re: Silk reeling

I think this woman is one of the people on NZ that brings in Zhu Tiancai (famous Chen-stylist) for workshops, etc. While most of what she said seems to be fairly common and general statements about silk-reeling, I don't see anything explicative or useful for someone trying to find out exact how's or what's. She's pretty correct that it takes long-term and dedicated practice to get anywhere with it.

The essence of body movement is Open and Close. Open uses the power from the ground ('groundpath', kokyu, whatever) and the connection of the body, particularly the connection across the back of the entire body (head to toe). Close uses the power of gravity and the connection of the body, particularly the connection across the front of the body (head to toe). The main back & front connections can further be broken down to regional connections, which is where the muscle-tendon channels, the precursors to acupuncture meridians, come from.

The optimum way to utilize the power of the whole body is to move it as a unit. If you're going to move it as a unit, then the hara has to control the kokyu and the connection (the "ki" is largely related to this). Someone who doesn't move the whole body with the hara isn't doing "internal strength", but some side-aspects of it. And learning how to use the hara to make those controls takes, as the woman says, a goodly period of focused study.

I haven't seen much indication that Aikido uses "silk reeling", as I said before, so by default they use "pulling silk" to some degree (given that there is kokyu/jin and ki in Aikido). So rather than encouraging people to chase yet another trendy-sounding thing that they can't do without good instruction anyway, my suggestion would be that people just do suburi or some simplified version of suburi as a 'qigong'.

Rather than focus on the precise way to lift, grip, angle of the elbows, twist, unwavering downstroke, and so on, I'd suggest that people just forget "correct" suburi (you can do that later, after you have some 'correct' hara, jin, and body connection.... something most sword people don't have). If you start off without even a bokken/bokuto in your hands and do the lift with the inhale tightening the back and the hara and front-leg-push causing the upswing, that's a good start.

When the upswing is finished, notice that the front of the body has now become tightened ('yin turns to yang') and cause the downswing by pushing the hara down in such a way that the hara push pulls the tightened front-body connection all the way out to the hands and pulls everything down. Push forward from the back leg. Inhale, exhale. Open, close. Back, front. Hara rolls backward; hara rolls forward.

It's rough, but it's a managable start toward truly using your hara/dantien/tanden in an easy first direction of control.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 03-02-2011, 10:18 AM   #72
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Re: Silk reeling

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
The essence of body movement is Open and Close. Open uses the power from the ground ('groundpath', kokyu, whatever) and the connection of the body, particularly the connection across the back of the entire body (head to toe). Close uses the power of gravity and the connection of the body, particularly the connection across the front of the body (head to toe).
That's some good meat-and-potatoes, right there!

(and yes, Joep, I saw you wrote much the same thing. )
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Old 03-02-2011, 01:00 PM   #73
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Re: Silk reeling

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Adam Bauder wrote: View Post
(and yes, Joep, I saw you wrote much the same thing. )
Oh, but that's just coincidence.
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Old 03-02-2011, 01:36 PM   #74
Mike Sigman
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Re: Silk reeling

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Adam Bauder wrote: View Post
(and yes, Joep, I saw you wrote much the same thing. )
Yes, good job, Joep. I haven't looked at the thread much in a couple of days and I forgot. Have to give credit where credit is due and you were on the mark.

Best.

Mike
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Old 03-04-2011, 10:41 AM   #75
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Re: Silk reeling

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Yes, good job, Joep. I haven't looked at the thread much in a couple of days and I forgot. Have to give credit where credit is due and you were on the mark.
Thanks!
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