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Old 08-07-2011, 09:24 PM   #26
DH
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Desperate attempts to tear down my character and reputation only show the sort of person you are.
Mike Sigman
What?
Let me see if I get this straight.
You started the thread about me, and included Chinese text
I responded with Chinese text to refute a point
You responded by talking about me again instead of the text
Now here you are talking about me again?
What's up with this obsession with me?

1. If you can't or won't refute the subject you started
2. And If you won't provide any information on the subject you started, as you just stated...
Then it leaves me to doubt any serious intentions you had with using my name of this thread other than to go after me.
Jun continues to caution you about these "Dan fests" of yours and you keep doing it anyway.
Oh well
Dan
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Old 08-07-2011, 09:56 PM   #27
DH
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

Quote:
Stan Baker wrote: View Post
Hi William
Modern Aikido has external spiraling but is lacking in understanding of
internal whole body spiraling. You can feel the difference instantly.

stan
Precisely why I am not much interested in debating it much anymore.
Go meet people. If they get it (to one degree or another) it stands out and all is made known. Talking about it and debating and having to tell someone they don't get something they have invested so much of their lives in... just gets people upset.
In person it is obvious. If people can't present a physical understanding that matches what they thought they knew and you can, then what the hell was the point of all the arguing and debating in the first place?

In person...for some strange reason, no one gets angry...ya'll make friends instead of enemies...like so many of us have already done.
Just say'n
Dan

Last edited by DH : 08-07-2011 at 10:02 PM.
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Old 08-07-2011, 10:47 PM   #28
Aikibu
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

Quote:
Stan Baker wrote: View Post
Hi William
Modern Aikido has external spiraling but is lacking in understanding of
internal whole body spiraling. You can feel the difference instantly.

stan
Sorry Stan I don't practice "modern" Aikido and I never have. Thanks for the post.

William Hazen
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Old 08-07-2011, 10:49 PM   #29
Aikibu
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Precisely why I am not much interested in debating it much anymore.
Go meet people. If they get it (to one degree or another) it stands out and all is made known. Talking about it and debating and having to tell someone they don't get something they have invested so much of their lives in... just gets people upset.
In person it is obvious. If people can't present a physical understanding that matches what they thought they knew and you can, then what the hell was the point of all the arguing and debating in the first place?

In person...for some strange reason, no one gets angry...ya'll make friends instead of enemies...like so many of us have already done.
Just say'n
Dan
Way ahead of you there and I thank you for helping me get to that realization.

William Hazen
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Old 08-08-2011, 02:38 AM   #30
ewolput
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

Again thhis thread is becoming a game of words.....
Anyway, maybe it could be very interesting to do some research with people who have it and people who don't have it like in the docu of the japanese television. I am not interested in a evaluation about the people doing the demo if they have it or don't have. I am interested if modern science can record and evaluate the movement and/or powermanagement of those who claim to have it, those who have it and those who don't have it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tb619wQ8o5c
from 6:15

What is your thought about it?

Eddy
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Old 08-08-2011, 04:12 AM   #31
dps
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

Quote:
Eddy Wolput wrote: View Post
Again thhis thread is becoming a game of words.....
Anyway, maybe it could be very interesting to do some research with people who have it and people who don't have it like in the docu of the japanese television. I am not interested in a evaluation about the people doing the demo if they have it or don't have. I am interested if modern science can record and evaluate the movement and/or powermanagement of those who claim to have it, those who have it and those who don't have it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tb619wQ8o5c
from 6:15

What is your thought about it?

Eddy
Yes. It is a physical phenomenon and is able to be measured and evaluated.

dps
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Old 08-08-2011, 05:35 AM   #32
danielajames
 
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

Quote:
Eddy Wolput wrote: View Post
Anyway, maybe it could be very interesting to do some research with people who have it and people who don't have it like in the docu of the japanese television. ...I am interested if modern science can record and evaluate the movement and/or powermanagement of those who claim to have it, those who have it and those who don't have it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tb619wQ8o5c
from 6:15

What is your thought about it?

Eddy
Its a nice piece of video and neat to see the comparison of 'developing' vs. 'expert' practitioner. I think though the researcher may have missed a more interesting/illuminating aspect than which can be found by looking at the centre of mass of Nage, though maybe he did but it wasn't as palatable for a TV audience and ended up on the cutting room floor - quite common in science.

Much more interesting to mee is watching examining the centre of mass of the Uke and where it is in relation to the base of support (Uke's feet) and then visually inferring the angle of applied force that Nage uses and how close that is to the optimum toppling angle, which is the minimum force required to achieve Kuzushi, which under movement Uke has to take ukemi.

best,
dan

Daniel James, Brisbane Aikido Republic: AikiPhysics, Aikido Brisbane news,
ph 0413 001 844, 1593 Logan Rd, Mt.Gravatt, Brisbane, AUSTRALIA
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Old 08-08-2011, 07:25 AM   #33
Mike Sigman
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
1. If you can't or won't refute the subject you started
2. And If you won't provide any information on the subject you started, as you just stated...
Why on earth would I refute the subject I started? Did you misspeak?

I did provide information and observations and pertinent questions. Look again:
Quote:
So the question is really more along the lines of "what did Ueshiba do, when and *how* did he do it, and where did he learn it?" There are related questions to be asked about what Tohei, Shioda, and others knew, when and how did they did it, where they learned it, and so on.

In my personal view there are some things that Ueshiba does (in terms of body movement) that are not quite the same as seen in Tohei, Shioda, any Daito Ryu guys on videos that I've seen, and so on. Over the years I've watched all the videos of Ueshiba (and many others, too, of course) and my impression is that Ueshiba actually used his dantien somewhat more than you'd think at first glance, but he used it in relation to pretty linear jin, not the winding jin. Among a number of reasons I could list, let me point out a couple:

There is no indication of winding training in any drill done by Ueshiba.

The winding jin doesn't work in closely held arms and a high stance. There is an old saying "qi does not go through a bent joing" and in this case they're talking about the aspect of qi that I refer to as "suit" as a way of differentiating what it is.

If someone makes a throw and ends up with one arm up and one arm down, one leg forward and one leg back, that does not mean that they are using "spiraling" power, since that type of posture is common and traditional through many martial arts. I had an Aikido teacher who did the same thing, BTW, and he had no internal-strength skills whatsoever; hence, it indicates not much.

One of the real questions I've had over the years is just what Ueshiba knew. I feel like I have a better grasp after years of reading and watching videos, but it's still difficult to speak with absolute surety in many cases. Does he use "reeling silk" though? Pretty definitely not, so Chen's Taiji is not a good comparison for that reason. Yang's Taiji that uses "Pulling Silk" is probably a much better comparison (of course they also claim to use "reeling", but they don't actually).
It seems that every time substance is raised in a conversation, you tend to try to trivialize it and avoid getting into any depth. For years, after a probing questions that seem to have upset you, you've done this same thing. You want "debate".... here's debate.

The only problem with the spiralling discussion is that it brings back up your probem of jin being linear, of course.... but so far you haven't been able to explain it. Here's your chance.

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-08-2011, 07:54 AM   #34
Mike Sigman
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

One point I think is very important to consider about spiralling in relation to Aikido is the heavy emphasis Ueshiba placed on being very relaxed. "Spiraling" is something that happens in the qi of the body when it is done correctly. For example, while there are some usages of deliberate windings in antagonism in some Chinese martial-arts, it's mostly a training device (the antagonism). While moving, etc., no one espoused holding antagonism. Ueshiba certainly never espoused anything other than to relax. There's a reason for that: if you tie up your suit/qi with some sort of inherent tension then the smooth interplay of the suit/qi is hampered.... and that would be a basic no-no for the simple reason that it blocks what they would call the 'flow of qi'.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-08-2011, 08:05 AM   #35
MM
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
One of the difficulties in analysing what Ueshiba actually did for his training and application lies with the fact that he was aware/versed in the old Chinese classics,
It's been said that Ueshiba read a lot of books, however, I have yet to see the list of books that he read. Could you please cite where you found that Ueshiba was "aware/versed in the old Chinese classics"?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Dan's example of a Chen-style maxim is an example to consider: does the saying really discuss what Dan thinks it does and therefore prohibit forward and backward movement (there is an adjunctive saying about not going up or down, too)? Not really.
So you disagree. That's fine. Now cite, show, or tell us why. Simply saying I disagree doesn't cut it. You have to support your ideas, otherwise, why should we listen to someone just saying that they disagree? Even Graham actually adds why he disagrees to his posts.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
It turns out that even Okinawan karate (and most other arts, too) all refer to spiralings along the lines of the Ueshiba quote above.
What Okinawan karate? I can say some Chinese systems refer to spiraling, but that's kind of silly. Actually naming said systems so that people can actually reference what you're talking about is much better. As an example, see my next reply

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
these the same kinds of spiraling used in the Chen-style Taijiquan? No,
Which Chen-style are you referring to? There are two main lines that I know of and they are very different. One does use the same kind of spiraling that Ueshiba used and one doesn't seem to. So, you see, just tossing out that some general martial system has spiraling, doesn't mean anything. Why even bring it up?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Because Ueshiba mentions the classical adage about spiraling doesn't necessarily mean that he thought of it and or did it in any way like the Chen-styles Reeling-Silk-Jin.
Again, which Chen-style. Beyond that, how long have you studied that particular Chen-style and who was your teacher that you know this detailed level of knowledge about their reeling silk?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
There is no indication of winding training in any drill done by Ueshiba.
Um, where did you get Ueshiba's list of exercises/drills that he did? There's a lot of printed material out there on aikido but I have yet to find one where it lists Ueshiba's personal exercises or drills. Would be nice to know where that book is. Otherwise, how do you know what Ueshiba did as exercises or drills?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
The winding jin doesn't work in closely held arms and a high stance. There is an old saying "qi does not go through a bent joing" and in this case they're talking about the aspect of qi that I refer to as "suit" as a way of differentiating what it is.
winding what? Could you please define just how you are using the term jin as it compares/relates/contrasts to Japanese terminology. This is, after all, a Japanese martial art. Others have said that they don't know what you mean by jin. And we have seen cross talk because people define words differently. Otherwise, you could be talking about something completely and utterly different than what we, as readers, are thinking. For example, internal spirals work within any shape that the body holds. So, your "winding jin" must not be the same thing. Sounds like something very different from your Chinese background than what Ueshiba was doing.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
If someone makes a throw and ends up with one arm up and one arm down, one leg forward and one leg back, that does not mean that they are using "spiraling" power, since that type of posture is common and traditional through many martial arts. I had an Aikido teacher who did the same thing, BTW, and he had no internal-strength skills whatsoever; hence, it indicates not much.
After *all* the threads and posts about Ueshiba being different than modern aikido people, you still compare them? That's like saying, "Oh, Ueshiba couldn't be doing spiraling because modern aikido people *look* like him and they aren't." Huh? The whole point of years and decades worth of talk is that Ueshiba *was* different.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
One of the real questions I've had over the years is just what Ueshiba knew. I feel like I have a better grasp after years of reading and watching videos, but it's still difficult to speak with absolute surety in many cases. Does he use "reeling silk" though? Pretty definitely not, so Chen's Taiji is not a good comparison for that reason. Yang's Taiji that uses "Pulling Silk" is probably a much better comparison (of course they also claim to use "reeling", but they don't actually).
Again, which lineage of Yang Taiji? How long have you trained in all lineages of Yang Taiji such that you know for sure that they don't use reeling silk? Which Chen style? How long have you trained in any of them? Could you please define just how you are using the term reeling silk as it compares/relates/contrasts to Japanese terminology. This is, after all, a Japanese martial art. It really doesn't sound like you're talking about the same kinds of skills and abilities in regards to Ueshiba's aiki.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
2 cents in order to start a rousing discussion. Disagree'ers please start with something like "I think you're wrong because...." as opposed to ad hominems, character assassination, and so forth.

Mike Sigman
Huh, you mean you don't want to see things like:

Well, i just disagree. All martial arts have spiral definitions in them so Ueshiba can't be doing that. I've trained with some modern students of aikido who didn't use spirals so therefore the founder must not have been using them. There's really no detailed information out there on the founder's personal training but I know that he didn't have drills for internal winding.
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Old 08-08-2011, 08:20 AM   #36
Eric in Denver
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
"Spiraling" is something that happens in the qi of the body when it is done correctly. For example, while there are some usages of deliberate windings in antagonism in some Chinese martial-arts, it's mostly a training device (the antagonism). While moving, etc., no one espoused holding antagonism.
Mike Sigman
Mike,

This is getting closer to clarifying a point I am still having difficulty with. Could you go into more depth about the difference between winding and spiraling?

Thanks!
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Old 08-08-2011, 08:49 AM   #37
Mike Sigman
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
It's been said that Ueshiba read a lot of books, however, I have yet to see the list of books that he read. Could you please cite where you found that Ueshiba was "aware/versed in the old Chinese classics"?
Wait.... you've spent hours putting down Ueshiba on this very forum and you're not aware that he studied the Chinese classics? Do you know that studying the Chinese classics was almost de rigeur in his day among the educated? John Stevens mentions it in one of his books and I've seen it in a number of other places. Here, try this one:

Quote:
http://aikidobloomington.com/About/OSensei

The Great Master, Morihei Ueshiba, founder of Aikido, was born in Tanabe City, Wakayama Prefecture, Honshu, Japan, on December 14, 1883. He started the study of the Nine Chinese Classics under Priest Mitsujo Fujimoto of Jizoji Temple, Shingon Sect Buddhism, at the age of seven. At the age of ten, he studied Zen Buddhism at the Homanji Temple. Blessed with an extraordinary intellect and undying effort by nature, he would come to master numerous martial arts and create one of the most integrated martial arts of our time, Aikido.
Quote:
So you disagree. That's fine. Now cite, show, or tell us why. Simply saying I disagree doesn't cut it. You have to support your ideas, otherwise, why should we listen to someone just saying that they disagree? Even Graham actually adds why he disagrees to his posts.
You expect me to teach you the Chen style in 2 easy lessons? Let me show you a quick way for you to grasp the idea that Dan's quote doesn't mean what it literally says: go look at a filmed video of someone competent doing the Chen-style and notice that at times there is certainly backward and forward movement (as there is also up and down movement although there is a saying prohibiting that). This is like the admonition of "double weighting" which does not mean to never have the weight on both feet at the same time (it happens all the time as you transition)... it means something different.
Quote:

What Okinawan karate? I can say some Chinese systems refer to spiraling, but that's kind of silly. Actually naming said systems so that people can actually reference what you're talking about is much better. As an example, see my next reply
Uechi Ryu, for one. But I've seen it in others over the years. My teacher was Seiyu Shinjo on Okinawa.
Quote:

Which Chen-style are you referring to? There are two main lines that I know of and they are very different.
Which ones are they? I'm not aware of "two main lines".
Quote:
Again, which Chen-style. Beyond that, how long have you studied that particular Chen-style and who was your teacher that you know this detailed level of knowledge about their reeling silk?
Sorry, but your tone and demands just stepped over the line into a personal insult, Mark. My teachers of the Chen style were Qi Ben Den, Liang Shouyu, Liang Baiping, and some with Chen Xiaowang in the times that he stayed with me, workshops, etc., in Denver. Who are yours and Dan's teachers that you've suddenly become experts in the Chen style that you feel confident enough to quote things you don't understand? This is an Aikido thread, not a Chen-style thread, so bring it back on topic after you answer who yours and Dans teachers were.
Quote:

Um, where did you get Ueshiba's list of exercises/drills that he did? There's a lot of printed material out there on aikido but I have yet to find one where it lists Ueshiba's personal exercises or drills. Would be nice to know where that book is. Otherwise, how do you know what Ueshiba did as exercises or drills?
Read what I said, Mark. You've misconstrued my actual words.
Quote:

winding what? Could you please define just how you are using the term jin as it compares/relates/contrasts to Japanese terminology. This is, after all, a Japanese martial art. Others have said that they don't know what you mean by jin. And we have seen cross talk because people define words differently. Otherwise, you could be talking about something completely and utterly different than what we, as readers, are thinking. For example, internal spirals work within any shape that the body holds. So, your "winding jin" must not be the same thing. Sounds like something very different from your Chinese background than what Ueshiba was doing.
Ki, hara, kokyu forces, Earth, Heaven, Man...... are you suggesting that there is overlap with some of these things in Japan, but anything you want to hide behind you say "it's different in Japan?". Doesn't work that way. Once you're on the logic of one of those, all else follows. Unless, of course, someone is just making it up and trying to hide that fact.

You can go back and climb into his lap, now.

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-08-2011, 09:04 AM   #38
Marc Abrams
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

Mike attempted a cheap-shot at Dan with a thread in the Open Discussion section that Jun correctly removed very quickly. Soon after that, this thread emerges. Mike would like us to believe that this thread is somehow NOT about his "pissing contest" with Dan.

It is clear to almost anybody on Aikiweb that you two disagree with one another and do not like one another. It would be amusing to organize a pay-per-view event of Dan and Mike in a ring together with the proceeds to pay for Aikiweb's ongoing operating costs..... Obviously that is not going to take place. In absence of that, I would strongly advocate a stance where Mike and Dan simply stop any and all communications with one another. This thread is little more than a thinly veiled attempt at Mike trying to engage in another antagonistic interaction with Dan and the people who advocate and support what Dan is teaching. Little if any useful information ever emerges from these pissing contests.

It would be nice to see a thread started about these types of topics without the obvious "pissing contest" that is underpinning of this thread. I have privately spoken with Dan on more than one occasion, encouraging him to not initiate or respond to Mike. If I had any type of cordial relationship with Mike, I would do the same thing. Maybe somebody out there, who does have a cordial relationship with Mike could suggest to him that he ceases to engage in this type of petty behavior. These threads and ensuing debates only make things worse. If the Aikiweb is about Aikido then it seems reasonable to suggest that attempts are made at harmonizing and not antagonizing.

Just my 2 cents....

Marc Abrams
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Old 08-08-2011, 09:11 AM   #39
Mike Sigman
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Mike attempted a cheap-shot at Dan with a thread in the Open Discussion section that Jun correctly removed very quickly. Soon after that, this thread emerges. Mike would like us to believe that this thread is somehow NOT about his "pissing contest" with Dan.

It is clear to almost anybody on Aikiweb that you two disagree with one another and do not like one another. It would be amusing to organize a pay-per-view event of Dan and Mike in a ring together with the proceeds to pay for Aikiweb's ongoing operating costs..... Obviously that is not going to take place. In absence of that, I would strongly advocate a stance where Mike and Dan simply stop any and all communications with one another. This thread is little more than a thinly veiled attempt at Mike trying to engage in another antagonistic interaction with Dan and the people who advocate and support what Dan is teaching. Little if any useful information ever emerges from these pissing contests.

It would be nice to see a thread started about these types of topics without the obvious "pissing contest" that is underpinning of this thread. I have privately spoken with Dan on more than one occasion, encouraging him to not initiate or respond to Mike. If I had any type of cordial relationship with Mike, I would do the same thing. Maybe somebody out there, who does have a cordial relationship with Mike could suggest to him that he ceases to engage in this type of petty behavior. These threads and ensuing debates only make things worse. If the Aikiweb is about Aikido then it seems reasonable to suggest that attempts are made at harmonizing and not antagonizing.

Just my 2 cents....

Marc Abrams
Marc, you're one of the known lap-dogs of Dan. Would you mind not starting another one of your discussions that essentially attacks me personally again, please.

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-08-2011, 09:13 AM   #40
Nicholas Eschenbruch
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Mike attempted a cheap-shot at Dan with a thread in the Open Discussion section that Jun correctly removed very quickly. Soon after that, this thread emerges. Mike would like us to believe that this thread is somehow NOT about his "pissing contest" with Dan.

It is clear to almost anybody on Aikiweb that you two disagree with one another and do not like one another. It would be amusing to organize a pay-per-view event of Dan and Mike in a ring together with the proceeds to pay for Aikiweb's ongoing operating costs..... Obviously that is not going to take place. In absence of that, I would strongly advocate a stance where Mike and Dan simply stop any and all communications with one another. This thread is little more than a thinly veiled attempt at Mike trying to engage in another antagonistic interaction with Dan and the people who advocate and support what Dan is teaching. Little if any useful information ever emerges from these pissing contests.

It would be nice to see a thread started about these types of topics without the obvious "pissing contest" that is underpinning of this thread. I have privately spoken with Dan on more than one occasion, encouraging him to not initiate or respond to Mike. If I had any type of cordial relationship with Mike, I would do the same thing. Maybe somebody out there, who does have a cordial relationship with Mike could suggest to him that he ceases to engage in this type of petty behavior. These threads and ensuing debates only make things worse. If the Aikiweb is about Aikido then it seems reasonable to suggest that attempts are made at harmonizing and not antagonizing.

Just my 2 cents....

Marc Abrams
I second. Excellent suggestion.
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Old 08-08-2011, 09:17 AM   #41
Thomas Campbell
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

Quote:
Daniel James wrote: View Post
hi Thomas thanks for the feedback..thoughts below

I think for me as a deductive kind of person it gives confidence to the traditions of the art, a viewpoint to reinterpret what I have been doing and perhaps a way to sort the wheat from the chaff. Its helped enormously in being able to critically evaluate the kata of aikido (as nage and uke), ki testing from my early days and all of a sudden be able to stop something like nikkyo effortlessly from seniors was an eye opener that IS and similar approaches have got something going on

Yeah I think i'd agree with that, though what i am personally doing is looking mostly at static stuff for now so mostly the first segment and hopefully can generalise from there as to what is best way to move etc..

From what I understand of fascia simplistically as covers over the muscles and tendons they could be considered as a passive/ active 'skin suit' that improves the efficiency of muscles/tendons and maybe make a contribution in their own right. For now I am happy to bundle them all into the same basket to reduce variables which can get in the way of a pretty basic understanding. Mind you judging form conversations, others (probably you?) are considerably further down this road so I just tend to butt out a bit

dan
Dan--

Thank you for that. I had to wade through a bit of mud and smoke to find your respons. But it's very helpful, particularly about the need to "reduce variables which can get in the way of a pretty basic understanding." For my part, although I am grateful for the training perspectives and seeds of insight that can be found by enduring the Sturm und Drang of this particular forum, there is far more vaguely-anchored theory and half-baked historical speculation than solid sharing of specific "how-tos"--which I think is what most of us are looking for. The hands-on personal contact has been far more beneficial for my own small progress. I'm in the process of organizing my own notes for sharing, though it will be a little while.

Tom
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Old 08-08-2011, 09:24 AM   #42
Marc Abrams
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Marc, you're one of the known lap-dogs of Dan. Would you mind not starting another one of your discussions that essentially attacks me personally again, please.

Mike Sigman
Mike:

Personal insults are something that you seem to have no problem with. You have no problem attacking other people, veiled and not-so thinly veiled and them act offended when people respond directly to your antagonistic attempts.

Been there, seen it and done it with you before. If you would like to point out any particular point that I made as being inaccurate, be my guest. If you want to engage in name-calling with me, be my guest as well. My suggestions to the both of you still apply. Seems like one person already seconded that position. Is he a "lap-dog" as well?

Marc Abrams
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Old 08-08-2011, 10:00 AM   #43
gregstec
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

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Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Mike:

Personal insults are something that you seem to have no problem with. You have no problem attacking other people, veiled and not-so thinly veiled and them act offended when people respond directly to your antagonistic attempts.

Been there, seen it and done it with you before. If you would like to point out any particular point that I made as being inaccurate, be my guest. If you want to engage in name-calling with me, be my guest as well. My suggestions to the both of you still apply. Seems like one person already seconded that position. Is he a "lap-dog" as well?

Marc Abrams
Ditto to your posts Marc - and I am sure Mr. Sigman considers me one of Dan's lap dogs as well - however, that is a very good example of just how Mr. Sigman can be wrong in his assertions and observations - I am just too 'fricking' big and ornery to be anybody's lap dog

Greg

Last edited by gregstec : 08-08-2011 at 10:08 AM.
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Old 08-08-2011, 10:14 AM   #44
Nicholas Eschenbruch
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

Just before I get drawn to any sides here: I like the "bilateral" beauty of Marc's suggestion and did not take it as necessarily directed against Mike only.

Plus: as a confessing aikibunny I shall be mortally offended if anybody should call me a dog. Dogs are evil. Us bunnies learn aiki to fight them - one day.
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Old 08-08-2011, 10:16 AM   #45
mathewjgano
 
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

Whatever the case for Aikido, these threads too often have the downward variety. How much of a pattern do people need before they start checking that same old behavior (very old)?
To the usual suspects: again, please stop poisoning these conversations. You all seem to have much to say to each other; I request you do it by PM or get over it. This is absurd.
Not-so-humbly,
Matt

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Old 08-08-2011, 10:19 AM   #46
Janet Rosen
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

I've met Mike Sigman once for a workshop. I've never met Dan Harden, though I'd like to. I train in an unaffiiated dojo. My interest is opening myself to as much training as possible.
What I'm about to say has NOTHING to do with the relative merits of either of your actual abilities or training or IRL contributions. They are strictly about what happens here in these threads:
These ARE pissing contests, they are a horrible waste of time and energy and the attempts by both of you to draw the rest of us in or score points is just silly.
I do call on all third parties to stop feeding it if the two can't. and I don't give a godamn "who started it."

Janet Rosen
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Old 08-08-2011, 10:21 AM   #47
Mike Sigman
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

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Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Seems like one person already seconded that position. Is he a "lap-dog" as well?
If you mean Nicholas, it sounds like he's agreeing that an in-depth discussion of details, without personal attacks, be done. I've attempted that a number of times, particularly a few years back.

In the last few days I've asked very specific questions and gotten vague evasions and inferences that "Japanese arts are different". Really?

Tell you what I'll do. I'll start a very specific thread, quoting Dan's assertion about how jin is not linear... once again... and then let's see how specific the answer is. "Spiraling"? I'll throw that into the thread again. There's a very serious problem going on about this "spiraling" and it would do everyone a lot of good to find out what it is. This nonsense about the Japanese doing it differently is complete bunkum... what's really happened is that someone has badly misunderstood what "spiraling" refers to.

Let me know the next time you come to Durango, Marc. I want to see if your 'spiraling' is better than it was last time.

Mike Sigman

Last edited by Mike Sigman : 08-08-2011 at 10:23 AM.
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Old 08-08-2011, 10:27 AM   #48
Mike Sigman
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
These ARE pissing contests, they are a horrible waste of time and energy and the attempts by both of you to draw the rest of us in or score points is just silly.
I do call on all third parties to stop feeding it if the two can't. and I don't give a godamn "who started it."
Just to take the other side for a moment..... we used to allow "pissing contests" that had *some* substance in them to continue on the Neijia List and later iterations of the forum. Sometimes information comes out in bickering, etc., *as long as it generally stays on the subject area*. If, on the other hand, bickering and personal attack is used because someone can't really answer a question, etc., that's a different thing.


2 cents.

Mike Sigman
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Old 08-08-2011, 10:30 AM   #49
Nicholas Eschenbruch
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
I've met Mike Sigman once for a workshop. I've never met Dan Harden, though I'd like to. I train in an unaffiiated dojo. My interest is opening myself to as much training as possible.
What I'm about to say has NOTHING to do with the relative merits of either of your actual abilities or training or IRL contributions. They are strictly about what happens here in these threads:
These ARE pissing contests, they are a horrible waste of time and energy and the attempts by both of you to draw the rest of us in or score points is just silly.
I do call on all third parties to stop feeding it if the two can't. and I don't give a godamn "who started it."
Or maybe Phi (will you?) and myself could spam the thread to death with silly animal jokes????
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Old 08-08-2011, 10:31 AM   #50
Marc Abrams
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Re: What kind of "spiraling" does Aikido have?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
If you mean Nicholas, it sounds like he's agreeing that an in-depth discussion of details, without personal attacks, be done. I've attempted that a number of times, particularly a few years back.

In the last few days I've asked very specific questions and gotten vague evasions and inferences that "Japanese arts are different". Really?

Tell you what I'll do. I'll start a very specific thread, quoting Dan's assertion about how jin is not linear... once again... and then let's see how specific the answer is. "Spiralling"? I'll throw that into the thread again. There's a very serious problem going on about this "spiralling" and it would do everyone a lot of good to find out what it is. This nonsense about the Japanese doing it differently is complete bunkum... what's really happened is that someone has badly misunderstood what "spiralling" refers to.

Let me know the next time you come to Durango, Marc. I want to see if your 'spiralling' is better than it was last time.

Mike Sigman
Mike:

1) Why don't you start a thread without any reference to Dan? What a novel idea! That is what I had suggested that BOTH of you avoid doing in the first place and people seem to like that idea.

2) Now you are trying to get person with me. I went to visit you in good faith. What followed was what I considered to be disrespectful to me and at least one of my teachers and in bad faith. I confronted you on that and we had a falling out, to say the least.

3) Next time I am teaching a seminar in Durango, you can easily find out about it by keeping an eye on the seminar thread section of the Aikiweb or in the Aikido Journal website.

4) I do not train with people who I do not respect and you are on that list. If you feel the need to observe the seminar that I teach, knock yourself out. If you create a scene, you will be escorted out of the facility. You certainly will not be invited or allowed to attend any of the training classes. Training is done in a cordial environment, which would preclude you and I having to working on the mats together.

5) Your opinion of me is of no consequence to my evaluation of myself and my budo, but thank you for sharing.

Marc Abrams
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