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Old 01-26-2012, 04:00 PM   #26
graham christian
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Re: Feeling

Quote:
Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
Are you really missing my point or just avoiding it? I think it is you who is trying to connect what you say with what someone else says. I'm trying to either disconnect it or find out how you can justify the connection.

In my previous post I asked you to clarify one way or the other if you are just talking about your own aikido or that of others too regarding this "feeling different on touch".
  • When you start a thread claiming "a new phenomena" is standard to your aikido, I want to 'understand' if that phenomenon is the same one you were arguing about recently.
  • If not, please say so. If so, I also want to ‘understand' how you got enough information on an IHTBF phenomenon without feeling to be able to connect it to your aikido.

It's that simple.

The use of the word "understand" instead of "know" that you introduced earlier hints that you don't claim to have the exact information, in which case I think you should retract the claim that the phenomenon is "standard to" or "regularly stated in" your aikido.

Regards

Carl
Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Of course he can speak for himself, and I hope he'll correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he wants a logical explaination for why you seem to claim to understand what other folks do without having any direct experience; given the idea that "it must be felt," but without feeling it.

I think it would be clearer to say, "...if I didn't think I understand." You may well understand exactly what he's doing, even better than he does (Carl suggested this as a possibility in fact), but all we can know over the internet is how our words and phrases match up. Everything else, no matter how probable, is speculation until we experience the proof in the pudding. Knowing Socrates/Plato as you do, you can see where there might be a concern regarding people who spend a lot of time talking about how much they know while spending very little time talking about how much they don't know. I'm guessing it has to do with this.

I agree. This is why I think even people like me who have no real skill should be able to describe whatever they practice however they want (i.e. an "internal method" is one which focuses on internal methodology, no matter how effective). However, you seem to claim to know exactly what someone else's methods are; not just what his descriptions are. I believe it is this appearance which causes so many to question your point of view.
...and again, I hope people will actually correct me where I seem mistaken.
Take care!
Matthew
Hi Matthew.
I thought here was the place where people shared understandings. Therefore it's not for you to know for as you said over the internet you can't know. Carl appears to want to know.

If I didn't think I understood? I know what I understand and and I know what I don't understand. Nothing to do with thinking if I do or not.

Now as for me claiming to know exactly, well take it from me if I mean know exactly then I would say know exactly. As I have never used such terms then it shows whoever thinks I said that is incorrect in their observation.

As with everyone else I have abilities as well as understandings. A person with a good or advanced ability in football could listen to someone else in football and understand; understand what they mean when they explain something. He wouldn't have to 'feel it or see it physically'.

A wise man understands a lot without having to physically see or touch. Therefore thinking you Have to feel it to understand is incorrect. To know exactly, then that is correct. But still not always true.

Recently an old student came back visiting and told me about a couple of things 'different' to what I do from an Aikido he has been doing. I told him I understand. He said 'no, it's different, that's what I'm telling you' I said 'I know, I understand.' and laughed.

Now he was confused. He proceeded to 'show me' but somehow his technique didn't work. He was confused again as it usually worked and then added 'but you'd know if you felt it from my teacher'

'I know how your teacher does it' I said and proceeded to do the same to him as he was trying to show me. It worked and very dramatically too. He got up surprised exclaiming 'you know!'

So in that case I knew without having been there or ever trained in that style.

This then opened him up to ask about other parts of his Aikido that he and others there were getting stuck on. I understood, saw the why's, corrected.

If on the other hand he had told me something he was practicing and words alone didn't give me understanding I would say I don't understand. Usually I would then get the person to show me and feel not only what they are doing but also what they are trying to do. In these cases through feeling I understand and correct.

I can watch and tell most times what a person is or isn't doing standing a few feet away, I can even feel it. I'm sure many others can too.

How many times have I heard students tell me it's quite freaky when they try something or try to disguise something and yet still find I know what they are doing.

It's not magic, it's a build up of lot's of understandings and abilities.

So excuse me for laughing or challenging statements made which say you must this or you must that in order to understand or know.

The more you understand the more you can view other things and understand. The more you know the more you can do the same.

Regards.G.
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Old 01-26-2012, 07:37 PM   #27
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Feeling

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I thought here was the place where people shared understandings. Therefore it's not for you to know for as you said over the internet you can't know. Carl appears to want to know.
It absolutely is. It's why I like it here so much. I learn a lot here. However, it's the difference between the understanding we have about the words themselves and about the meaning the speaker intends. I guess the distinction you have between what you understand and what others understand perhaps doesn't come across, or is otherwise missed...It doesn't seem to be felt, at any rate. And to be clear, I affix no fault in this. Whether it's transmission or reception makes little difference to my point of view...and I think it's a little analogous to keiko...and for me is an extention thereof. Where lessons fail I tend to speak about how uke is ultimately responsible, because I view that as the bottom line for any learner/student, but where two people are working together to achieve understanding I believe it is the responsibility of each party to help the other achieve that mutual understanding. Coincidentally, this is the essence of cooperative training in Aikido, in my meager opinion. People square off, offer something, and they each sense/feel something and respond. This goes both ways, each person feeling their way through the interaction/technique to arrive at refined (hopefully mutual) comprehension.

Quote:
I know what I don't understand. Nothing to do with thinking if I do or not.

Now as for me claiming to know exactly, well take it from me if I mean know exactly then I would say know exactly. As I have never used such terms then it shows whoever thinks I said that is incorrect in their observation.
Sometimes we know we don't understand; sometimes we don't.
Not "exactly," then, but perhaps something "too close" to it. That's been my feeling regarding some of the interactions, but I probably have not been connected to them very well.

Now, all that said, I really like the language of "feeling" to describe training. To me it speaks to the fundemental aspect of learning anything: sensing...and feeling is the biggest part of visceral learning, as far as I can tell. One of my reoccuring thoughts when training is, "how did that feel? What did I feel? What else can I feel?" I often try to feel everything at once, if that makes any sense, but it's hard to make much sense of it right away, so I'm constantly trying to "feel" back and forth between "macro" and "micro;" "whole" body and various parts.
When it comes to learning about my own body, you might say I'm more interested in how I feel than in how other people feel, although really the two are interdependant.
I dunno...something like that. I feel brain-dead and like I'm not helping so...humble pie in hand I now go to feed my face.
Take care, and thank you for the food for thought!
Matt

Last edited by mathewjgano : 01-26-2012 at 07:39 PM.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 01-26-2012, 11:20 PM   #28
Carl Thompson
 
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Re: Feeling

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Of course he can speak for himself, and I hope he'll correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he wants a logical explaination for why you seem to claim to understand what other folks do without having any direct experience; given the idea that "it must be felt," but without feeling it.
No need for correction. That's the crux of what I'm asking Graham to do. Thanks.

Graham, I would be grateful if you could answer me this time in a simple survey-form. There are only 5 questions which shouldn't take more than a minute to answer. I apologise that a few strictly "yes" or "no" answers are required but in common with many surveys, I'll leave a space at the end for extra comments. If you have to skip a question because you can't answer "yes" or "no" you can explain why there.

Note: I'm specifically aiming this survey-formatted info-request at the OP. However as long as it doesn't take over the thread, I think it would still be on topic if others wanted to answer it too (except for question 4 which is aimed specifically at Graham).

Carl

Short "In Thread" Survey:

Q1: Do you believe it when people associated with the I.P. (Internal Power) and "Aiki" phenomenon on this forum claim "it has to be felt" (IHTBF) in order to understand it?
Yes/No (delete one)

Q2: Can you prove one way or the other if they are right or wrong about their claim that IHTBF?
Yes/No (delete one)

Q3: Regardless of your answer to the previous question, please indicate how you can prove IHTBF right or wrong one way or the other: (select any that apply in order of preference -- delete any that do not apply)
  • Direct hands on training (feeling)
  • Indirect training (e.g.:training with someone who has trained directly with them)
  • Written material (e.g.: Aikiweb posts, books)
  • DVDs/Blu-ray
  • Psychic Powers
  • Other (please indicate a category - if explanation is necessary, use Q5)
(If you are Graham, please continue to Q4. Otherwise, go to Q5.)

Q4 (for Graham Only): Does the "recent phenomena" you initially described as being "standard to my aikido from day one" refer to the same phenomenon that Dan Harden and others described?
Yes / No

Q5. Do you have any other comments?

Last edited by Carl Thompson : 01-26-2012 at 11:22 PM. Reason: Formatting
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Old 01-27-2012, 12:34 AM   #29
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Feeling

Quote:
Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
No need for correction.
Awesome! Thank you.
I don't get the impression Graham would mind...and I apologize if I am mistaken, Graham, but in the name of science...

Short "In Thread" Survey:

Q1: Do you believe it when people associated with the I.P. (Internal Power) and "Aiki" phenomenon on this forum claim "it has to be felt" (IHTBF) in order to understand it?
Yes
...but I want to qualify that I believe "IHTBF" in order to have a functional understanding...amazing flukes of genius notwithstanding.

Q2: Can you prove one way or the other if they are right or wrong about their claim that IHTBF?
Yes

Q3: Regardless of your answer to the previous question, please indicate how you can prove IHTBF right or wrong one way or the other: (select any that apply in order of preference -- delete any that do not apply)
  • Direct hands on training (feeling)
  • Indirect training (e.g.:training with someone who has trained directly with them)

Q5. Do you have any other comments?
Indirect training can prove it has to be felt, but I presume whatever they're developing is less developed than who ever they're training with, so the proof is less pronounced.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 01-27-2012 at 12:37 AM.

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Old 01-27-2012, 03:27 AM   #30
graham christian
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Re: Feeling

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
It absolutely is. It's why I like it here so much. I learn a lot here. However, it's the difference between the understanding we have about the words themselves and about the meaning the speaker intends. I guess the distinction you have between what you understand and what others understand perhaps doesn't come across, or is otherwise missed...It doesn't seem to be felt, at any rate. And to be clear, I affix no fault in this. Whether it's transmission or reception makes little difference to my point of view...and I think it's a little analogous to keiko...and for me is an extention thereof. Where lessons fail I tend to speak about how uke is ultimately responsible, because I view that as the bottom line for any learner/student, but where two people are working together to achieve understanding I believe it is the responsibility of each party to help the other achieve that mutual understanding. Coincidentally, this is the essence of cooperative training in Aikido, in my meager opinion. People square off, offer something, and they each sense/feel something and respond. This goes both ways, each person feeling their way through the interaction/technique to arrive at refined (hopefully mutual) comprehension.

Sometimes we know we don't understand; sometimes we don't.
Not "exactly," then, but perhaps something "too close" to it. That's been my feeling regarding some of the interactions, but I probably have not been connected to them very well.

Now, all that said, I really like the language of "feeling" to describe training. To me it speaks to the fundemental aspect of learning anything: sensing...and feeling is the biggest part of visceral learning, as far as I can tell. One of my reoccuring thoughts when training is, "how did that feel? What did I feel? What else can I feel?" I often try to feel everything at once, if that makes any sense, but it's hard to make much sense of it right away, so I'm constantly trying to "feel" back and forth between "macro" and "micro;" "whole" body and various parts.
When it comes to learning about my own body, you might say I'm more interested in how I feel than in how other people feel, although really the two are interdependant.
I dunno...something like that. I feel brain-dead and like I'm not helping so...humble pie in hand I now go to feed my face.
Take care, and thank you for the food for thought!
Matt
I enjoyed reading that. Well put. I like the way a lot of folks believe they don't do co operative training when of course they do. Unco-opererative training isn't training I would say. Amusing.

Regards.G.
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Old 01-27-2012, 03:52 AM   #31
graham christian
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Re: Feeling

Quote:
Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
No need for correction. That's the crux of what I'm asking Graham to do. Thanks.

Graham, I would be grateful if you could answer me this time in a simple survey-form. There are only 5 questions which shouldn't take more than a minute to answer. I apologise that a few strictly "yes" or "no" answers are required but in common with many surveys, I'll leave a space at the end for extra comments. If you have to skip a question because you can't answer "yes" or "no" you can explain why there.

Note: I'm specifically aiming this survey-formatted info-request at the OP. However as long as it doesn't take over the thread, I think it would still be on topic if others wanted to answer it too (except for question 4 which is aimed specifically at Graham).

Carl

Short "In Thread" Survey:

Q1: Do you believe it when people associated with the I.P. (Internal Power) and "Aiki" phenomenon on this forum claim "it has to be felt" (IHTBF) in order to understand it?
Yes/No (delete one)

Q2: Can you prove one way or the other if they are right or wrong about their claim that IHTBF?
Yes/No (delete one)

Q3: Regardless of your answer to the previous question, please indicate how you can prove IHTBF right or wrong one way or the other: (select any that apply in order of preference -- delete any that do not apply)
  • Direct hands on training (feeling)
  • Indirect training (e.g.:training with someone who has trained directly with them)
  • Written material (e.g.: Aikiweb posts, books)
  • DVDs/Blu-ray
  • Psychic Powers
  • Other (please indicate a category - if explanation is necessary, use Q5)
(If you are Graham, please continue to Q4. Otherwise, go to Q5.)

Q4 (for Graham Only): Does the "recent phenomena" you initially described as being "standard to my aikido from day one" refer to the same phenomenon that Dan Harden and others described?
Yes / No

Q5. Do you have any other comments?
1) Yes. They claim, they believe. They needed to obviously.

2) No. I prove nothing. They do it. They found for them it had to be felt so they are obviously right.

3) Not into proving or right or wrong. So no.

4) No. It refers to the phenomenon.

5) Yes. Know your own path and accept no substitutes. When you know what yours is then it's easy to see what isn't. No need then to be right, wrong or prove.

Regards.G.
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Old 01-27-2012, 07:22 AM   #32
lbb
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Re: Feeling

Q1: Do you believe it when people associated with the I.P. (Internal Power) and "Aiki" phenomenon on this forum claim "it has to be felt" (IHTBF) in order to understand it?
Neither (see below)

Q2: Can you prove one way or the other if they are right or wrong about their claim that IHTBF?
No (see below)

Q3: Regardless of your answer to the previous question, please indicate how you can prove IHTBF right or wrong one way or the other: (select any that apply in order of preference -- delete any that do not apply)
There is no method. See below.

Q5. Do you have any other comments?

In re 1: I believe that when some people say that, they are convinced that it's true (and it may be).
I believe that when other people say so, they're repeating a platitude that they have not personally experienced to be true, but that sounds good. Not speaking of anyone specific, but this is the way of humanity. Suzuki roshi said a lot of things about Zen; and Joe Hyams said a lot of similar things, but the former was a Zen master, while the latter was a dabbler amusing himself with a popular fad.

In re: 2 and 3, it's not provable either way. If I fail to learn something by a more intellectual method, and then do learn it by "feeling" it, this doesn't prove that it has to be felt in order to understand it, or even that I had to feel it in order to learn it. All I've demonstrated is that feeling it is how I did learn it. You can't prove a negative, and you can't prove that no one, no where, could ever learn IPLMNOQ except by "feeling".
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Old 01-27-2012, 07:59 AM   #33
Carl Thompson
 
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Re: Feeling

Thank you to both Graham and Matthew.

If you bear in mind that I made this caveat at the beginning...
Quote:
Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
I apologise that a few strictly "yes" or "no" answers are required but in common with many surveys, I'll leave a space at the end for extra comments. If you have to skip a question because you can't answer "yes" or "no" you can explain why there.
... I hope you don't mind if I shift the explanations of the requested "strictly yes or no" parts of both of your surveys to the end. It is a slight reformatting to match my original criteria that still keeps your explanations for why you chose yes/no. They are just separate for clarity.

So as long as you're okay with it, I'll take the following as your positions:
Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Short "In Thread" Survey:

Q1: Do you believe it when people associated with the I.P. (Internal Power) and "Aiki" phenomenon on this forum claim "it has to be felt" (IHTBF) in order to understand it?
Yes

Q2: Can you prove one way or the other if they are right or wrong about their claim that IHTBF?
Yes

Q3: Regardless of your answer to the previous question, please indicate how you can prove IHTBF right or wrong one way or the other: (select any that apply in order of preference -- delete any that do not apply)
  • Direct hands on training (feeling)
  • Indirect training (e.g.:training with someone who has trained directly with them)

Q5. Do you have any other comments?

Indirect training can prove it has to be felt, but I presume whatever they're developing is less developed than who ever they're training with, so the proof is less pronounced.

Explanations (moved from the yes/no fields to match the survey format)

Regarding Q1: ...but I want to qualify that I believe "IHTBF" in order to have a functional understanding...amazing flukes of genius notwithstanding.
Thank you very much Matthew, especially for your comment in Q5.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Short "In Thread" Survey:

Q1: Do you believe it when people associated with the I.P. (Internal Power) and "Aiki" phenomenon on this forum claim "it has to be felt" (IHTBF) in order to understand it?
Yes

Q2: Can you prove one way or the other if they are right or wrong about their claim that IHTBF?
No

Q3: Regardless of your answer to the previous question, please indicate how you can prove IHTBF right or wrong one way or the other: (select any that apply in order of preference -- delete any that do not apply)
(this question only applies if you wrote "yes" to Q2 anyway, so no worries re: not answering. My bad)

Q4 (For Graham Only): Does the "recent phenomena" you initially described as being "standard to my aikido from day one" refer to the same phenomenon that Dan Harden and others described?
No

Q5. Do you have any other comments?

Yes. Know your own path and accept no substitutes. When you know what yours is then it's easy to see what isn't. No need then to be right, wrong or prove.

Explanations (moved from the yes/no fields to match the survey format):

Regarding Q1: They claim, they believe. They needed to obviously.
Regarding Q2: I prove nothing. They do it. They found for them it had to be felt so they are obviously right.
Regarding Q3: Not into proving or right or wrong. So no.
Regarding Q4: It refers to the phenomenon.
Thank you Graham! This kind of clarification is what I was asking for at the start. It helps me understand what you were saying at the start of this thread. I hope it has helped clear up a few things for you and others reading the thread too.

Carl
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Old 01-27-2012, 09:07 AM   #34
graham christian
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Re: Feeling

Quote:
Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
Thank you to both Graham and Matthew.

If you bear in mind that I made this caveat at the beginning...

... I hope you don't mind if I shift the explanations of the requested "strictly yes or no" parts of both of your surveys to the end. It is a slight reformatting to match my original criteria that still keeps your explanations for why you chose yes/no. They are just separate for clarity.

So as long as you're okay with it, I'll take the following as your positions:

Thank you very much Matthew, especially for your comment in Q5.

Thank you Graham! This kind of clarification is what I was asking for at the start. It helps me understand what you were saying at the start of this thread. I hope it has helped clear up a few things for you and others reading the thread too.

Carl
It was interesting.

It has been interesting to me that many here have said many things about 'effectiveness' and such like of my Aikido despite what I say. From this end I can't help laughing because here I am knowing and there they are presenting themselves as experts and telling me. This could lead me to believe it has to be felt, especially by those who do such, but I find that not even worth saying.

Maybe it's me but any Aikido video or other where I see something that looks 'can't be' or 'not as described' I automatically shrug and know I would have to feel it. I thought that was just normal.

Then again I have certain criteria for anyone wanting to do my Aikido so it's not a matter of because they are curious.

I was talking to a Girl a few months ago who is, or rather was a three times British Karate champion.

She was immediately interested in my views because I said to her I could 'feel' she was sad in having stopped doing it. I was more interested in her views though. She said that she had reached a good level and the competitions were just things she thought she had to do because she was meant to but found it took away from the true nature of Karate. She said also that everyone acclaimed her and friends were proud of her and all wanted her to do more and fight more and she felt like some kind of show pony or show puppet. No one was interested in the message she had to give in her view that it's not about fighting so she considered the contests give out the wrong message.

She went on to share how there's so much more to True Karate than that. Even the week before out meeting she said a past male friend of hers met her and was enthusiastically boasting how his kick felled an opponent and she told me she actually felt sorry for him and thought 'what a waste'.

I hope she gets back into it and teaches her way myself.

Regards.G.
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Old 01-27-2012, 09:09 AM   #35
jonreading
 
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Re: Feeling

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I'm a bit mystified, but getting a bit clearer, as to what the overall scene in Aikido is. It's taken over a year of reading these posts to get a clearer picture.

At first my mere mention of spiritual led to mass attack. Now I see a lot are experiencing a new phenomenon (needs no name) and recognising there is more than what they originally thought.

I have said consistently that the spiritual, universal principles can be learned and thus Aikido better understood. This would take perceptions other than the five senses, hence feeling.

Now, in a slight change I hear 'you have to feel it'.

How many different feelings are you aware of and based on which principles? Statements like 'on touch a person feels different to normal'** is standard in my Aikido. Taught from day one.
**NOTE: The quotation (paraphrase) is attributed to Dan Hardin**

Regards.G.
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Throwing and connection
...Leave budo out of it, leave waza untouched and walk up to someone and do the Ueshiba test.
Every person who so much as grabbed him to try something all said he felt different and they knew right away.
Go lay hands on someone.
If they don't feel different than normal people?
They don't know what Ueshiba was talking about
They don't know what they are talking about when it comes to aiki.
Everything else is judo or jujutsu.
...
I am trying to figure this one out...

First, let's put a name to the "new phenomenon" - internal strength, correct? Fear of a name only increases fear of the thing itself, right? (sorry, a little Harry Potter humor there).

Second, the OP is using "feeling" as a emotional term, not a sense - so we are not talking about something you can "feel" using the sense of touch, correct? We are not talking about the instructional request to "feel" something because it is difficult to explain.

Third, we have this observation that a component of aikido has to be physically felt (touch sensory) in order for the body to process and internalize refined aiki.

Finally, we have a claim from the OP that the observation that "feeling" (sensory?) aiki is standard practice in his aikido. Through this statement the OP is also indirectly claiming he is applying internal strength training because the origin of the quote.

I do not know if I would describe internal strength as "new" or a "phenomenon". I believe the Japanese versions of strength training existed in early aikido and have been strained out. I know of many aikido people who are looking to re-invigorate aikido with these exercises and application. Hell, I am not even sure how much of the "internal strength" strength is Chinese compared to Japanese (as those guys teach it). I would not describe what I have felt (and classified as internal strength) as "feel" in an emotive sense - the stuff is quite tangible with a direct physical body reaction. I concede that you need to train your body to be acutely aware of your body state and subtle changes that affect your body state.

In the US, I know few aikido people who actually have strong aiki. Of those with whom I have personally worked, almost all have referred to a structural strengthening as a component of their understanding of aiki. I don't think any of them have claimed they had been doing the stuff all along. If fact, some of the people are simply saying, "I cannot explain this yet, but feel this..." I think we use the qualitative statement, "feel this" to describe a body reaction that we do not know well enough to coherently explain. It is a placeholder explanation that implies "I don't have the knowledge to concisely explain this, but I want to share this experience." Forgive my incredulity, but I think the OP has some strong claims that lack sufficient evidence to support the claim. I, for instance, have a million bucks. You don't have to believe me, but I do.

I think claim series has something to be desired; less if you read additional posts. I think we maybe need to clear up our statements, inferences and claims before continuing. Also, we need to apply the 70's kung fu master translation device to about half of these posts to translate the grand master pontifications. I echo a previous post - let's be clear and concise in our writing, or wait until we can better explain what it is we are expressing. I think this thread has some interesting posts, but some of the stuff is non-coherent.
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Old 01-27-2012, 10:11 AM   #36
graham christian
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Re: Feeling

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Jon Reading wrote: View Post
I am trying to figure this one out...

First, let's put a name to the "new phenomenon" - internal strength, correct? Fear of a name only increases fear of the thing itself, right? (sorry, a little Harry Potter humor there).

Second, the OP is using "feeling" as a emotional term, not a sense - so we are not talking about something you can "feel" using the sense of touch, correct? We are not talking about the instructional request to "feel" something because it is difficult to explain.

Third, we have this observation that a component of aikido has to be physically felt (touch sensory) in order for the body to process and internalize refined aiki.

Finally, we have a claim from the OP that the observation that "feeling" (sensory?) aiki is standard practice in his aikido. Through this statement the OP is also indirectly claiming he is applying internal strength training because the origin of the quote.

I do not know if I would describe internal strength as "new" or a "phenomenon". I believe the Japanese versions of strength training existed in early aikido and have been strained out. I know of many aikido people who are looking to re-invigorate aikido with these exercises and application. Hell, I am not even sure how much of the "internal strength" strength is Chinese compared to Japanese (as those guys teach it). I would not describe what I have felt (and classified as internal strength) as "feel" in an emotive sense - the stuff is quite tangible with a direct physical body reaction. I concede that you need to train your body to be acutely aware of your body state and subtle changes that affect your body state.

In the US, I know few aikido people who actually have strong aiki. Of those with whom I have personally worked, almost all have referred to a structural strengthening as a component of their understanding of aiki. I don't think any of them have claimed they had been doing the stuff all along. If fact, some of the people are simply saying, "I cannot explain this yet, but feel this..." I think we use the qualitative statement, "feel this" to describe a body reaction that we do not know well enough to coherently explain. It is a placeholder explanation that implies "I don't have the knowledge to concisely explain this, but I want to share this experience." Forgive my incredulity, but I think the OP has some strong claims that lack sufficient evidence to support the claim. I, for instance, have a million bucks. You don't have to believe me, but I do.

I think claim series has something to be desired; less if you read additional posts. I think we maybe need to clear up our statements, inferences and claims before continuing. Also, we need to apply the 70's kung fu master translation device to about half of these posts to translate the grand master pontifications. I echo a previous post - let's be clear and concise in our writing, or wait until we can better explain what it is we are expressing. I think this thread has some interesting posts, but some of the stuff is non-coherent.
Jon.
Firstly I do not call it internal strength what I do. I call it Aikido but if you need a label then it would be spiritual perception or universal perception.

Secondly, I am using feel as a sense not an emotion.

Thirdly, body touch gives physical connection, spiritual perception (feeling) at that time should have already felt but that takes development.

I make no claim on AIKI in this thread, if I did it would not be the Aiki you refer to.

Allow me to echo something too. When I mention Aikido if you don't take it as my definition of then you are importing something which isn't there. If you think I refer to Aiki then once again the same as I do not use that term and do not use the term internal either.

I often use the term spiritual and often universal. I let 'external' Aikido be what it is and 'Internal' Aikido be what it is. Mine is neither.

The constructs put on external or 'resistive' Aikido are not the constructs of mine. The constructs put on I/S are not the constructs of mine.

If they are the only two 'types' of Aikido in your Aikido experience or what you can relate to then Mine is outside of your reasoning.

Sometimes it's the reader who has to just admit 'that's different' or even that they don't understand.

To me I say it's down to acceptance. People may read what I say, which is in plain English, and then attack it, belittle it, or even change it to something else, but in my view all this means is they can't accept it. They can't accept it means what it says.(apart from the normal different definitions we all have for things)

Those who can accept it don't have a problem with it. This doesn't mean they understand or even agree but acceptance leads to understanding and so they will, by accepting, reach an understanding. That understanding may be 'Idon't believe him' it may be 'that's interesting' it may be whatever but it will be an understanding rather than a reaction.

Acceptance is part of center and being centered. In life, in the dojo, everywhere. It's universal.

Regards.G.
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Old 01-27-2012, 12:36 PM   #37
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Re: Feeling

Thanks for the clarifications Graham. It clears up some of my confusion....

I don't want to cut into semantics, but just because you "choose" not to call what you do "internal strength" does not mean it is not internal strength. I can call a duck a goose, but that does not change what it is. I am trying to ascertain what you are claiming to do, not what you call it. Your post and your subsequent responses strongly indicate that you possess "aiki" in your aikido. I introduced the term "aiki" because that is, of course, the focal point of [our] training, to express aiki.

My point was that I do not hear the phrase "you have to feel this" as instructional curriculum for a extra-sensory experience. When I hear the phrase it usually is applied as an instructional aid to something which [currently] defies verbal explanation. In the aikido in which I am immersed, aiki is demonstrative, real and not extra-sensory. Your expansion of the phrase as a instructional experience into a 6th perception, not classically defined (as Lynn pointed out), is a new adventure to me.

Further, I was explaining that my experiences are that very few aikido people have the ability to constantly and consistently express aiki in their aikido. I know many friends who are training to realize that expression. When you say things like what you posted in this thread, I am sincerely trying to comprehend if that piece is actually part of the puzzle.

Quote:
When I mention Aikido if you don't take it as my definition of then you are importing something which isn't there. If you think I refer to Aiki then once again the same as I do not use that term and do not use the term internal either.
This, in part, is part of my confusion. You have your own definition for many things. We sometimes tease you about the "Graham Lexicon" that is required to translate your posts. You could have been a cryptologist for the Allies in WWII...

Part of what you are saying is true, it does come down to acceptance. Right now, I do not even understand the premise you are presenting, let alone reaching a level of discussion that would provoke me to accept or reject your premise.

After your clarifications, it sounds like you are presenting the claim that "spiritual feeling" is required for proper aikido. Is that more accurate?
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Old 01-27-2012, 02:46 PM   #38
graham christian
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Re: Feeling

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Jon Reading wrote: View Post
Thanks for the clarifications Graham. It clears up some of my confusion....

I don't want to cut into semantics, but just because you "choose" not to call what you do "internal strength" does not mean it is not internal strength. I can call a duck a goose, but that does not change what it is. I am trying to ascertain what you are claiming to do, not what you call it. Your post and your subsequent responses strongly indicate that you possess "aiki" in your aikido. I introduced the term "aiki" because that is, of course, the focal point of [our] training, to express aiki.

My point was that I do not hear the phrase "you have to feel this" as instructional curriculum for a extra-sensory experience. When I hear the phrase it usually is applied as an instructional aid to something which [currently] defies verbal explanation. In the aikido in which I am immersed, aiki is demonstrative, real and not extra-sensory. Your expansion of the phrase as a instructional experience into a 6th perception, not classically defined (as Lynn pointed out), is a new adventure to me.

Further, I was explaining that my experiences are that very few aikido people have the ability to constantly and consistently express aiki in their aikido. I know many friends who are training to realize that expression. When you say things like what you posted in this thread, I am sincerely trying to comprehend if that piece is actually part of the puzzle.

This, in part, is part of my confusion. You have your own definition for many things. We sometimes tease you about the "Graham Lexicon" that is required to translate your posts. You could have been a cryptologist for the Allies in WWII...

Part of what you are saying is true, it does come down to acceptance. Right now, I do not even understand the premise you are presenting, let alone reaching a level of discussion that would provoke me to accept or reject your premise.

After your clarifications, it sounds like you are presenting the claim that "spiritual feeling" is required for proper aikido. Is that more accurate?
Thank you Jon for a very nice reply.

In answer to your question re: spiritual then yes. This is what I 'claim' and have stated on many an occasion. Spiritual perception and thus feeling I would call it rather than just feeling.

Spiritually you can perceive the motion of anothers mind, spiritually you can perceive the space of another and your own, spiritually you can perceive the circles and lines extant in technical Aikido. When you perceive them you get a resultant feeling, thus you get used to it and learn.

Thus it works in alignment with rather than different to the technical, in fact once gotten each 'seen' principle at work is now very real and usable and also seen in life and living.

Thus I can say as I have before that I think along the lines of principles rather than intellectual data.

The principle of inflow outflow can be seen physically by the effect of a pebble dropped into a still pond. It can be felt physically by tuning into and studying breathing. The spiritual workings of this principle can only be perceived spiritually and thus recognised universally. Ego, the mind, the body cannot do this. The body can feel effects of, the mind can think about and 'reason' and intellectualize but neither can do it. Spirit can do it and share it with the mind.

In my Aikido for instance I get people to follow these universal principles whether they believe them or not. I get them to feel them and study them and use them. Thus they at first try to follow what I say, keep at it and then experience it working with the desired effect. They are always surprised, especially in the beginning, for it appears not to fit in with logic. Yet they felt it, they did it, they experienced the result. That feeling or the accompanying feelings that went with their action were different to what they are used to as well and hence they find it fascinating.

As they progress the mind comes to terms and understands which shows me spiritual comes first in my way.

All this is subservient to and in my opinion and teaching of any true worth only if it follows four basic truths pertinent to Aikido.

These four basic truths I may call the pillars of My Aikido and they are Love, Goodness, True Self (spirit) and Faith.(confidence if you like)

Heart, soul, self and faith.

Therefore if a person does not have the purposes which fit in with the principles of these four things they cannot do my Aikido and in my opinion cannot fully appreciate the fullness of Aikido.

So that's a bit more outline as to how I approach it, see it, teach it.

For me there is no such thing as Ueshibas Aikido for Aikido has always and will always be there for it is universal truth. There is however Aikido which Ueshiba saw and practiced and passed on as a Master of the art.

Regards.G.

Last edited by graham christian : 01-27-2012 at 02:49 PM.
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Old 01-27-2012, 05:34 PM   #39
David Orange
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Re: Feeling

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
As to me needing to train with someone else or someone else needing to train with me I see no need.If a person is stuck or looking for help then fine, anything else, not interested really.
Tell, 'em, Graham. You can tell Dan that you can do everything he can do and no one should tell you you have to prove it. You can just take credit for it.

Of course, when Dan said what he could do, he was always willing to prove it, but that's not always necessary to get credit for being able to do it.

I once met Arnold Schwarzenegger. He was big and impressive-looking, but it didn't bother me. I told him, "I can lift as much weight as you."

He said, "Come to the gym and let's see."

I said, "Nah...I do it a spiritual way, so I don't need to prove it."

I met Mikhail Baryshnikhov and said, "You're a great dancer, but I can do anything you can do."

He said, "Oh, wonderful. We need a male dancer for our next show. Come to the studio and let's rehearse together."

I said, "Nah...I do a spiritual kind of dance. You don't need to see it."

He said, "Actually...I have seen a video of your dancing and, frankly...it wasn't so good."

I just snorted and said, "You don't understand." And that was good enough.

I met Miles Davis once and said, "Your music is pretty good, but I play the trumpet as well as you do."

His eyebrows went up and he said, "Strange I've never heard of you. But since you're good, come by after my set tonight and we'll jam."

I said, "Nah...I play a spiritual trumpet. I don't have to show you."

So I can blow the horn like Miles, lift weight like Arnie and dance like Mihail, but if anyone wants me to prove it...they're just being unspiritual.

I won't even bother you with what happened when I met the Dalai Lama, but I can tell you, he was impressed.

I'm sure Dan would shut up if you were to put hands on him, but I know that what you do is spiritual, so there's really no need for you to do that.

Of course, of all the budo men (and women) I've ever met, if anyone ever told them they could do something in budo, the budo folks always said, "Show me. Do it on me."

Talk is fine, but the rule of budo has always been "Put up or shut up."

You should think about that.

Cheers.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 01-27-2012, 05:46 PM   #40
David Orange
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Re: Feeling

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Carl. I am still missing your point. You keep trying to connect what I say with what someone else says.
Maybe it's because so much of what you say is in reply to other people and amounts to "I do that, too."

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
2) It is natural to think that if they over there feel what they describe as nothing and my students feel what they describe as nothing then we could be doing the same thing. On further inspection though I doubt it.
Yeah, well...who are your students?

I know that people who train with Dan range from beginner to shihan in aikido, most having some 20 years or more of training in aikido, many in judo, karate, jujutsu and MMA. Plus, he goes to Japan regularly and trains with some of the most renowned martial artists in that country.

From what I've seen on your videos, your students don't appear to have that kind of experience. When the kinds of people who describe Dan use the same words to describe you, then I'll be impressed. And when you can show that your "stuff" has any effect at all on Dan, I'll really be impressed. But...why do I get the feeling that that will never happen?

Since you are making your remarks before thousands of advanced budoka, however (and many more thousands of students with very little background), I'd caution you that you're only making yourself appear, frankly, ignorant and extremely egotistical. In fact, having stated that you accrue no karma, you should really think deeply about that because you may actually meet some of these people one day and you will realize that you have not transcended the wheel.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 01-28-2012, 12:54 AM   #41
graham christian
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Re: Feeling

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David Orange wrote: View Post
Maybe it's because so much of what you say is in reply to other people and amounts to "I do that, too."

Yeah, well...who are your students?

I know that people who train with Dan range from beginner to shihan in aikido, most having some 20 years or more of training in aikido, many in judo, karate, jujutsu and MMA. Plus, he goes to Japan regularly and trains with some of the most renowned martial artists in that country.

From what I've seen on your videos, your students don't appear to have that kind of experience. When the kinds of people who describe Dan use the same words to describe you, then I'll be impressed. And when you can show that your "stuff" has any effect at all on Dan, I'll really be impressed. But...why do I get the feeling that that will never happen?

Since you are making your remarks before thousands of advanced budoka, however (and many more thousands of students with very little background), I'd caution you that you're only making yourself appear, frankly, ignorant and extremely egotistical. In fact, having stated that you accrue no karma, you should really think deeply about that because you may actually meet some of these people one day and you will realize that you have not transcended the wheel.

David
Thank you for whatever it is you feel you are offering. Very dramatic.

I do not compare myself to anyone or say I do something someone else does their way. Only ego would say I do my friend.

I don't want to impress you or anybody thank you. Why come on here and mention another? Is he now your method of 'knowing'? I doubt he wants to be.

You do not know me. You have seen some videos which show what? One hundredth or maybe one thousanth of what I do? Hmmm. I thought it was claimed that you can't know by watching a video?

In your world it appears to me that you can insult, put down, accuse, and it's all fine until someone tells you something good about me. Well my friend, enjoy it, I'm sure you must get some pleasure out of it.

Nice story though about Arnie.

Regards.G.
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Old 01-28-2012, 01:51 AM   #42
graham christian
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Re: Feeling

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David Orange wrote: View Post
Tell, 'em, Graham. You can tell Dan that you can do everything he can do and no one should tell you you have to prove it. You can just take credit for it.

Of course, when Dan said what he could do, he was always willing to prove it, but that's not always necessary to get credit for being able to do it.

I once met Arnold Schwarzenegger. He was big and impressive-looking, but it didn't bother me. I told him, "I can lift as much weight as you."

He said, "Come to the gym and let's see."

I said, "Nah...I do it a spiritual way, so I don't need to prove it."

I met Mikhail Baryshnikhov and said, "You're a great dancer, but I can do anything you can do."

He said, "Oh, wonderful. We need a male dancer for our next show. Come to the studio and let's rehearse together."

I said, "Nah...I do a spiritual kind of dance. You don't need to see it."

He said, "Actually...I have seen a video of your dancing and, frankly...it wasn't so good."

I just snorted and said, "You don't understand." And that was good enough.

I met Miles Davis once and said, "Your music is pretty good, but I play the trumpet as well as you do."

His eyebrows went up and he said, "Strange I've never heard of you. But since you're good, come by after my set tonight and we'll jam."

I said, "Nah...I play a spiritual trumpet. I don't have to show you."

So I can blow the horn like Miles, lift weight like Arnie and dance like Mihail, but if anyone wants me to prove it...they're just being unspiritual.

I won't even bother you with what happened when I met the Dalai Lama, but I can tell you, he was impressed.

I'm sure Dan would shut up if you were to put hands on him, but I know that what you do is spiritual, so there's really no need for you to do that.

Of course, of all the budo men (and women) I've ever met, if anyone ever told them they could do something in budo, the budo folks always said, "Show me. Do it on me."

Talk is fine, but the rule of budo has always been "Put up or shut up."

You should think about that.

Cheers.

David
David. Of all the 'budo' men and women I have ever met, any that said show me I have shown. One rule of budo is also mind who you say put up or shut up to. Think about that too.

As this thread is about feeling I'll hazard a guess that you are expressing some feeling. Well done.

In real life rather than the fantasy you portray above a person interested in or doing some kind of martial art who I meet and get into conversation with is generally, in fact 99% of the time very understanding and appreciative. Most very honest too, that's why I find this forum strange at times. When I tell another in real life what I do and they share with me what they do they are really up front. They say straight away either 'I've never really gotten into the spiritual side' or 'That's interesting, I'm more into the rough and tumble' or other real things. No conflict, no prove it, no third degree interrogation of each other. Real.

I would say maybe 25% of those times lead to a little demo of some aspect. That's real.

Now as for peers and such like if you believe that is real then good for you. There is a thread on testing going right now, maybe you would enjoy that thread.

In my view a true budo person is testing themselves every day and it has nothing to do with peers. That is real and as real as it gets. A good musician is one who has done the same, continually improved and on his journey put himself in places to test himself and then moved on to his next challenge and so the cycle goes.

I don't think I have put down any other art on this forum or persons way of Aikido or method whether they are well held or not, famous or unknown,(except Dan once, which was rectified personally) I doubt you can say the same.

So you cannot be upset by me saying against someone only by me saying about me. I find that strange.

Regards.G.
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Old 01-28-2012, 04:01 AM   #43
Carl Thompson
 
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Re: Feeling

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
It has been interesting to me that many here have said many things about 'effectiveness' and such like of my Aikido despite what I say. From this end I can't help laughing because here I am knowing and there they are presenting themselves as experts and telling me. This could lead me to believe it has to be felt, especially by those who do such, but I find that not even worth saying.
What's interesting is that although people might say your aikido looks ineffective from your videos, you can also claim "it has to be felt". People can't really know for sure until they feel it. But of course people who claim this kind of thing who are willing to let their skills actually be felt are less likely to look like they're merely posturing.
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People may read what I say, which is in plain English, and then attack it, belittle it, or even change it to something else, but in my view all this means is they can't accept it.
I think you are saying you write in plain English because I asked you to answer in plain English earlier in the thread.
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David Orange wrote: View Post
I know that people who train with Dan range from beginner to shihan in aikido, most having some 20 years or more of training in aikido, many in judo, karate, jujutsu and MMA. Plus, he goes to Japan regularly and trains with some of the most renowned martial artists in that country.
If at all possible, I'd be interested in more information on Dan or the renowned martial artists in Japan.

Carl

PS: Thanks to Mary Malmros for also completing the survey.
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Old 01-28-2012, 05:19 AM   #44
graham christian
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Re: Feeling

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Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
What's interesting is that although people might say your aikido looks ineffective from your videos, you can also claim "it has to be felt". People can't really know for sure until they feel it. But of course people who claim this kind of thing who are willing to let their skills actually be felt are less likely to look like they're merely posturing.

I think you are saying you write in plain English because I asked you to answer in plain English earlier in the thread.

If at all possible, I'd be interested in more information on Dan or the renowned martial artists in Japan.

Carl

PS: Thanks to Mary Malmros for also completing the survey.
Hi Carl. If posturing is how some see it then I prefer that for in truth it is merely sharing.

This is the internet where data is shared, that's all. Plain English is not a reference to you by the way. You asked, we stayed with it, we clarified. Nothing wrong with that.

Now, back on point, what did you feel from Endo Sensei?

Regards.G.
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Old 01-29-2012, 06:26 AM   #45
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Re: Feeling

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Hi Carl. If posturing is how some see it then I prefer that for in truth it is merely sharing.

This is the internet where data is shared, that's all. Plain English is not a reference to you by the way. You asked, we stayed with it, we clarified. Nothing wrong with that.

Now, back on point, what did you feel from Endo Sensei?

Regards.G.
Just to be clear, I did not intend to give my own opinion about your aikido with my previous post. I think the truth of what you are sharing would be more convincing if you trained with others, but it is your business if you choose not to do so.

Regarding what I felt from Endo Shihan, as Carsten described before, it felt like nothing, but in my case this was because nothing happened. I would like to stress that it was only at a seminar and I only got to take ukemi twice. I was unsure of what was being worked on at the time. Some people looked like they were taking dives for him (not necessarily sensei's fault) while others looked like they were giving meaningful attacks and genuinely resisting him. Whatever was required, I got it wrong and got a telling off for my trouble and then someone came over to teach me a "lesson" afterwards (again not sensei's fault). I'd still like to get a better idea of what he's doing but I haven't had a chance to try his Hombu class yet.

I wrote a bit about it on Aikiweb already:
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Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
I attended a seminar by Endo Shihan in Nagoya shortly before the one being discussed here, so I've been finding this thread very interesting reading. In my case I think I did my research and endeavoured to go along with an open mind, eager to see what different insights this shihan had to offer. However, I also had a few problems understanding what the point of everything was.

I realise his regular keiko may be different and I shall try to make it to one of his classes at the hombu sometime, but I feel there have been some valid points here regarding the kind of training he does during seminars. I found that sometimes I just didn't know which way people wanted me to go and I wasn't being made to go anywhere. I understand that this kind of practice may be intended as some kind of subtle movement-teaching kata, where each acts their part, but no one adequately showed me my role in it.

Carl
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Charles Hill wrote: View Post
Hi Carl,

I want to make sure I understand what you are saying. You are saying that as UKE, you were not made to go anywhere? So would it be correct to say that you think that correct aikido practice consists of tori making uke do something/go somewhere? If this is correct, what did you do in that situation as uke? Did you stop moving?
I tried to leave what I thought was correct aikido behind. I went to the seminar to do Endo Shihan's aikido, whatever that might entail. One of the problems I had as uke was understanding just what that was, whether I was supposed to be getting made to move or whether I should purposely move to help my partner as part of the training.
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Hi Carl, during the course of a normal keiko just about anywhere, isn't there a mix of the two?

Best,
Ron
Yeah, definitely. I'm not demanding absolutes. I hope I wasn't demanding or expecting anything. Maybe next time someone like me blunders through one of these seminars, someone might say "ah, you are having the same problems as that stumpy guy with the beard off Aikiweb. You need to do this and this. Resist/don't resist me here and help/don't help me when I do this by moving/not moving here."
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Old 01-29-2012, 06:39 AM   #46
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
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Re: Feeling

Quote:
Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
Just to be clear, I did not intend to give my own opinion about your aikido with my previous post. I think the truth of what you are sharing would be more convincing if you trained with others, but it is your business if you choose not to do so.

Regarding what I felt from Endo Shihan, as Carsten described before, it felt like nothing, but in my case this was because nothing happened. I would like to stress that it was only at a seminar and I only got to take ukemi twice. I was unsure of what was being worked on at the time. Some people looked like they were taking dives for him (not necessarily sensei's fault) while others looked like they were giving meaningful attacks and genuinely resisting him. Whatever was required, I got it wrong and got a telling off for my trouble and then someone came over to teach me a "lesson" afterwards (again not sensei's fault). I'd still like to get a better idea of what he's doing but I haven't had a chance to try his Hombu class yet.

I wrote a bit about it on Aikiweb already:
Thank you Carl. I found that very interesting.

Regards.G.
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Old 01-29-2012, 07:07 AM   #47
gates
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 193
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Re: Feeling

Hi Graham,
I recently attended a special IP seminar on another continent (not cheap).
The feeling was literally jaw dropping for some, for me it was a little more down to earth, but highly entertaining and informative in a way words couldn't ever describe. Overall I walked away with a great deal more understanding than I walked in with. Physical feelings are hard to explain in words, so why bother? Explantains of physiological mechanisms although difficult, can be done to some extent. But that won't help explain the feeling, feelings need to be felt.
Off topic (Much of what you speak of in your aikido practice seems closer to kinomichi, an aikido derivative, quite different to aikido mainstream. Have you heard of kinomichi?
Keith

Last edited by gates : 01-29-2012 at 07:11 AM.

Enjoy the journey
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Old 01-29-2012, 07:25 AM   #48
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Feeling

Quote:
Keith Gates wrote: View Post
Hi Graham,
I recently attended a special IP seminar on another continent (not cheap).
The feeling was literally jaw dropping for some, for me it was a little more down to earth, but highly entertaining and informative in a way words couldn't ever describe. Overall I walked away with a great deal more understanding than I walked in with. Physical feelings are hard to explain in words, so why bother? Explantains of physiological mechanisms although difficult, can be done to some extent. But that won't help explain the feeling, feelings need to be felt.
Off topic (Much of what you speak of in your aikido practice seems closer to kinomichi, an aikido derivative, quite different to aikido mainstream. Have you heard of kinomichi?
Keith
Hi Keith.
Glad you liked it. Reading of your experience there was also very interesting.

Funny you mention Kinomichi, yes I do know of it. Noro was my teachers teacher. He was very 'direct' in those days. Having seen more up to date videos of his Kinomichi I suppose there could be some similarities, yes. There must be some influence through lineage. Very astute of you Keith.

Regards.G.
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Old 01-29-2012, 07:35 AM   #49
gates
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 193
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Re: Feeling

Graham,
The commonality with your aikido and kinomichi is visible in your physical waza AND in the writing and philosophical, spiritual emphasis.
Your sensei didn't adopt the name change?

Enjoy the journey
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Old 01-29-2012, 08:05 AM   #50
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Feeling

Quote:
Keith Gates wrote: View Post
Graham,
The commonality with your aikido and kinomichi is visible in your physical waza AND in the writing and philosophical, spiritual emphasis.
Your sensei didn't adopt the name change?
Never read his thoughts though. My teacher adopted a name for his Aikido and went independent too. He called it Zen Shin Kan Aikido. Based in North Watford. Still going today, as a private dojo.

He has a few students who went on to be teachers in various parts of the world. My co-teacher and friend recently visited him and helped him through an illness. All good.

Regards.G.
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