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Old 04-21-2009, 08:31 PM   #51
NagaBaba
 
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Re: Seishiro Endo Shihan - Montreal April 7 - 9 2009

Quote:
Daniel Rozenbaum wrote: View Post
There's no question that the nage should be able to handle whatever comes his/her way from the uke. However, certain attempts to maintaining the attack on the uke's part can make the engagement more interesting, challenging and ultimately fulfilling for the nage (and, indeed, for the uke as well). The instructor needs to demonstrate this during class, assuming that it's in the instructor's interest to convey this principle to the students. How can the instructor demonstrate this, then, if the uke is not providing an appropriate attack?
Such concept as "appropriate attack" simply doesn't exist.This is a cheap excuse that usually is used by not well trained instructor, that is not able to execute a technique correctly. There is simply 'an attack' and the instructor have to deal with it.

If you read my post carefully, you will see I was talking about teaching principles, and not merly teaching techniques. As every basic principle is contained in any technique, it doesn't matter what technique instructor is doing, as long as he respect the pronciple that he wants to teach.

Quote:
Daniel Rozenbaum wrote: View Post
Certainly, an instructor of the ability you speak of can dump the uke on his/her butt, but how does that fit into the teaching? What have the students learned from this encounter?

With best regards,
Daniel
You still not reading my post carefully. I was writing about teaching principles, not about beating up a poor uke.
I'll give you an example: lets take unbalancing.
You can demonstrate unbalancing from static attack or dynamic - doesn't matter it will be gyaku hanmi katatedori or yokomen uchi or choke from behind.Uke can counter instructor technique by double leg take down or by simple escaping back- still instructor can demonstrate unbalancing. It can be demonstrated in standing techniques as well in suwari waza and in hanmi handachi waza.In this context, there are no limits here. That is why I see a 'code' for uke as useless and damageable for students.

Nagababa

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Old 04-21-2009, 08:42 PM   #52
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Re: Seishiro Endo Shihan - Montreal April 7 - 9 2009

Thanks for the clarification, Szczepan; I think I understand where you're coming from. I have a feeling that we were talking past each other a bit, but it was an interesting conversation nonetheless.

With best regards,
Daniel
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Old 04-22-2009, 12:19 AM   #53
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Seishiro Endo Shihan - Montreal April 7 - 9 2009

Hi

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
you can't learn to be independent of uke will if you always practice with uke who is following prearranged movements.
That is exactly my point!!!

Most teachers (I know) over here in Germany need a following uke. Asai Sensei, the shihan who brought Aikido to Germany in 1965 teaches openly that way. So People doesn't learn, how to handle a uke who doesn't follow and hold on to the contact. - Simply doesn't follow, I'n not yet talking about resistance.

Therefore Students went to Christian Tissier. Because his Aikido ist different. Here nage creates the contact by himself. Uke isn't expected to follow. The "rules" or the "code" for uke are: Regain your ballance, don't move if you don't have to, don't follow if you don't need to, don't fall by yourself, show nage his openings ...
That's the work of uke in our Aikido. And uke may resist or counter.

You will not learn Aikido if you always practice with uke who is following prearranged movements.

"Code" simply means kata and rei like in every dojo. When Tissier talks about a "code" then he states that this code helps to learn, but that other people or other arts use other codes and that we don't must rely simply on such code =kata.


The Teaching of Endo goes one step further because he teaches a system of exercises by which the handling of uke can be learned. A handling that doesn't expect uke to do something like follow, to hold contact, whatever. Even if uke tries to resist oder to move away or ...
It works.

Quote:
Nage must experience aleatory behavior of uke, and not only codified movements that are known to both students in advance.But such situation is forbidden in your style of aikido.
Is it?
Must be new. Untill last Monday it wasn't.
So you know more, than I do.

I don't know, how you got your understanding of our Aikido.
Didn't Endo "play" at that seminar? Didn't he have one of his deshi with him?

Carsten

Last edited by Carsten Möllering : 04-22-2009 at 12:27 AM.
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Old 04-22-2009, 08:25 AM   #54
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Re: Seishiro Endo Shihan - Montreal April 7 - 9 2009

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
Such concept as "appropriate attack" simply doesn't exist.This is a cheap excuse that usually is used by not well trained instructor, that is not able to execute a technique correctly. There is simply 'an attack' and the instructor have to deal with it.

If you read my post carefully, you will see I was talking about teaching principles, and not merly teaching techniques. As every basic principle is contained in any technique, it doesn't matter what technique instructor is doing, as long as he respect the pronciple that he wants to teach.

You still not reading my post carefully. I was writing about teaching principles, not about beating up a poor uke.
I'll give you an example: lets take unbalancing.
You can demonstrate unbalancing from static attack or dynamic - doesn't matter it will be gyaku hanmi katatedori or yokomen uchi or choke from behind.Uke can counter instructor technique by double leg take down or by simple escaping back- still instructor can demonstrate unbalancing. It can be demonstrated in standing techniques as well in suwari waza and in hanmi handachi waza.In this context, there are no limits here. That is why I see a 'code' for uke as useless and damageable for students.
Nicely written Szczepan.
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Old 04-22-2009, 09:31 AM   #55
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Re: Seishiro Endo Shihan - Montreal April 7 - 9 2009

Hi
Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
There is simply 'an attack' and the instructor have to deal with it.
Yes, that's the way, we train. We domesticate our uke but deal with the attack they deliver.
I have seen neither Endo nor Tissier correcting their uke that way. And I have seen them often with uke being not familiar with their aikido.
On the contrary: They correct uke who try to do them "favours".

Quote:
As every basic principle is contained in any technique, it doesn't matter what technique instructor is doing, as long as he respect the pronciple that he wants to teach.
ya: those were my words after discussing my experiences after the first seminar I attendend.
Why such exercises and not teaching kuzushi or other things directly through the techniques?
I didn't feel good with that, I wanted to do Aikido and not something else.
I was convinced by practice.

Carsten
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Old 04-22-2009, 09:39 AM   #56
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Re: Seishiro Endo Shihan - Montreal April 7 - 9 2009

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Is it?
Must be new. Untill last Monday it wasn't.
So you know more, than I do.

I don't know, how you got your understanding of our Aikido.
Didn't Endo "play" at that seminar? Didn't he have one of his deshi with him?

Carsten
Hi Carsten,
I see my communication skills are very poor, I'm not able to make you understand my point correctly.

Please do an exercise: Go to Yoshinkai/Tomiki/Aikibudo dojo, regardless of affiliation. Then try to do your techniques on these folks following Endo sensei teaching(i.e. not grabbing attacker). Giving the fact you have 15 years of experience, you shouldn't face any problem.

Please report here the results.
Kind regards
s.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 04-23-2009, 02:08 AM   #57
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Seishiro Endo Shihan - Montreal April 7 - 9 2009

Hi Szczepan
Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
Hi Carsten,
I see my communication skills are very poor, I'm not able to make you understand my point correctly.
I don't think so. I think I understood you very well. Because many of your statements or questions are very near to or identicall with my understanding of Aikido.

But I think, that your image of the Aikido following Endo or Tissier doesn't meet what I have experienced over the years.
And maybe, our practice here is different from that in the US? I don't know.

I have often had this same dialogue but I was in your place, saying your sentences. Interesting. Here in Germany things seem to be the other way round. Here our Aikido is known for emphasizing the martial aspects, the budo character of Aikido

Quote:
Please do an exercise: Go to Yoshinkai/Tomiki/Aikibudo dojo, regardless of affiliation. Then try to do your techniques on these folks following Endo sensei teaching(i.e. not grabbing attacker). Giving the fact you have 15 years of experience, you shouldn't face any problem.
Short version here (The long sermon by PM):

I tried out my Aikido with Yudansha from Yoshinkan and with Practioners of Aiki Budo.
(There is no Tomiki Aikido here in Germany.)
I trained at special seminars with People from other martial arts (Boxing, Kickboxing, Jujutsu, Pencak Silat, Judo, Karate ...)

I didn't face any problems. (Except the ones I carry with me, not depending on my partners or our style of Aikido ...)
I experienced that our Aikido works. (Sometimes better, sometimes poorer. Just like always.)

So I know (not I just think) that my technique works. (On my level.)
And I experienced that it works better doing it the way Endo teaches it. (i.e. not grabbing but only guiding by contact. Not the whole technique through, but only at the points where it is usefull.)
And it works stronger with people who are not used to it - although it doesn't look so elegant then.

Carsten

Last edited by Carsten Möllering : 04-23-2009 at 02:12 AM.
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Old 04-23-2009, 07:50 AM   #58
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Re: Seishiro Endo Shihan - Montreal April 7 - 9 2009

I attended a seminar by Endo Shihan in Nagoya shortly before the one being discussed here, so I've been finding this thread very interesting reading. In my case I think I did my research and endeavoured to go along with an open mind, eager to see what different insights this shihan had to offer. However, I also had a few problems understanding what the point of everything was.

I realise his regular keiko may be different and I shall try to make it to one of his classes at the hombu sometime, but I feel there have been some valid points here regarding the kind of training he does during seminars. I found that sometimes I just didn't know which way people wanted me to go and I wasn't being made to go anywhere. I understand that this kind of practice may be intended as some kind of subtle movement-teaching kata, where each acts their part, but no one adequately showed me my role in it.

Carl
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Old 04-23-2009, 08:34 AM   #59
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Seishiro Endo Shihan - Montreal April 7 - 9 2009

Hi Carl, in my limited experience, when training with competent seniors in this style, no one has to "show you your role". They are able to control and move and guide you through the waza appropriately.

I think one of the main issues with these kinds of styles is can the run of the mill student in class or in a seminar do the same. I think the answer is...sometimes, sometimes not. And so the instruction for uke to maintain the connection to give nage a chance to practice and learn.

This can make this particular style of training very difficult...being honest with your self and your partner is crucial. Sometimes, I ask my partner in these scenarios to purposefully stand strong, especially when my results surprise me. Sometimes I find that I am doing the waza, sometimes I find ... uh ... not so much.

Best,
Ron

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Old 04-23-2009, 03:39 PM   #60
Charles Hill
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Re: Seishiro Endo Shihan - Montreal April 7 - 9 2009

Hi Carl,

I want to make sure I understand what you are saying. You are saying that as UKE, you were not made to go anywhere? So would it be correct to say that you think that correct aikido practice consists of tori making uke do something/go somewhere? If this is correct, what did you do in that situation as uke? Did you stop moving?

Ron!

I am doing great. Thank you for asking. I have an almost three year old who absolutely runs the house! If I see Dora the Explorer and her sidekick Boots one more time I think I`m gonna be sick! And I better prepare a bucket because I hear my princess coming.

Charles
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Old 04-23-2009, 08:28 PM   #61
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Re: Seishiro Endo Shihan - Montreal April 7 - 9 2009

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
So I know (not I just think) that my technique works. (On my level.)
And I experienced that it works better doing it the way Endo teaches it. (i.e. not grabbing but only guiding by contact. Not the whole technique through, but only at the points where it is usefull.)
And it works stronger with people who are not used to it - although it doesn't look so elegant then.

Carsten
Hello Carsten,
I don't understand very well - are you saying there are the points in the technique, where the teaching of Endo sensei fails(because is not useful)?

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 04-23-2009, 08:39 PM   #62
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Re: Seishiro Endo Shihan - Montreal April 7 - 9 2009

Quote:
Charles Hill wrote: View Post
You are saying that as UKE, you were not made to go anywhere? So would it be correct to say that you think that correct aikido practice consists of tori making uke do something/go somewhere? If this is correct, what did you do in that situation as uke? Did you stop moving?

Charles
Hello Charles,
Yes my understanding is that tori has to unify an attacker with tatami as fast as possible.To do that, tori must control completely attacker by locking his body, not only by touching him lightly.Such light touch will never stop me to do a vigorous counter and I'm very friendly attacker. Against somebody who is full of aggression, hate and has a bad intent, this way of doing a technique it is a bad joke.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 04-24-2009, 01:09 AM   #63
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Seishiro Endo Shihan - Montreal April 7 - 9 2009

Hi
Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
are you saying there are the points in the technique, where the teaching of Endo sensei fails(because is not useful)?
No, I am saying that we are not taught never ever to grab or something like that.
There are parts of the technique where it is usefull not to grab. Thats often the beginning, the entry of the technique.
And sure there are parts of the technique where it is usefull to grab.

Endo is not teaching not to grab or something like that as a conept or principle. He is not teaching any conpts or principles like Ki-Aikdio e.g.does.
We are doing concrete and pyhsical things. Explore how to move in certain situation, how to collaps uke, how to position ourselves ...

Endo just tell us to observe our body, to check honestly whether we can move freely, wether we really control the opponent completely, things like that.

"the teaching of Endo" is ikkyo, nikyo, sankyo ..., is shiho nage, iriminage, kote gaeshi, kaiten nage ..., is aikido.

"the teaching of Endo" is aikido as budo. Aikido as dao.

Quote:
ori must control completely attacker by locking his body, not only by touching him lightly.Such light touch will never stop me to do a vigorous counter
What does "touching lightly" mean?
We touch the attacker so he can't move or has to move the way I guide him.
To me "lightly" is not the right word because this touching has a great impact on uke. At least if someone knows how to do it.

Carsten
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Old 04-24-2009, 03:35 AM   #64
gabe
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Re: Seishiro Endo Shihan - Montreal April 7 - 9 2009

Quote:
Immediately, ppl sit down around him and start to admire how good he is (he was actually very surprised that in Montreal, folks tried actually to practice instead of admiring him LOL).
Really? Is this something Endo told you... "wow, i'm surprised no one is sitting down to admire me?" I don't think so... but maybe. In my experience, Endo makes it a point to train actually train with everyone, and if you are at a seminar for 3 days there is virtually 100% chance that he will at some point train with you. He moves around the mat, and likes a small group in his immediate vicinity to sit and make some space, so that he can throw *everyone* in that group before moving on to the next one. Maybe you don't like to grab on to your shihan, but...??

Quote:
I had a great pleasure to learn from Kanetsuka sensei during few years when he was still teaching aikido techniques beside some other interesting exercises. I think you need a good balance between them; otherwise it will denature the development of students. Those students, who never did any aikido techniques and practice only ‘essence' will not have a good understanding of aikido that O sensei created.
I agree, good balance is essential. But it's very hard to get when most teachers focus only on "This is what Ikkyo looks like in the book" How much of that training is necessary until you have to start balancing it out with other training?

In any case, thank you for coming to the seminar, I was hoping to meet you since I read so many of your posts here on Aiki-web, but I guess I missed you. Perhaps at the May seminar.

For my part, the seminar was excellent, as was the following weekend in Toronto, and we hope to have Endo shihan back again next year. Thank you to everyone for coming out and supporting the event.
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Old 04-24-2009, 04:35 AM   #65
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Re: Seishiro Endo Shihan - Montreal April 7 - 9 2009

Quote:
Charles Hill wrote: View Post
Hi Carl,

I want to make sure I understand what you are saying. You are saying that as UKE, you were not made to go anywhere? So would it be correct to say that you think that correct aikido practice consists of tori making uke do something/go somewhere?
I tried to leave what I thought was correct aikido behind. I went to the seminar to do Endo Shihan's aikido, whatever that might entail. One of the problems I had as uke was understanding just what that was, whether I was supposed to be getting made to move or whether I should purposely move to help my partner as part of the training.
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Old 04-24-2009, 06:13 AM   #66
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Re: Seishiro Endo Shihan - Montreal April 7 - 9 2009

Hi Carl, during the course of a normal keiko just about anywhere, isn't there a mix of the two?

Best,
Ron

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Old 04-24-2009, 07:20 AM   #67
Charles Hill
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Re: Seishiro Endo Shihan - Montreal April 7 - 9 2009

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
Hello Charles,
Yes my understanding is that tori has to unify an attacker with tatami as fast as possible.To do that, tori must control completely attacker by locking his body, not only by touching him lightly.Such light touch will never stop me to do a vigorous counter and I'm very friendly attacker. Against somebody who is full of aggression, hate and has a bad intent, this way of doing a technique it is a bad joke.
Then, yes, insofar as what I understand Endo Sensei to be doing, he is not doing what you have written here.

Speaking of bad jokes...

This guy in a restaurant calls the waiter over and angrily says, "This is absolutely the worst vanilla ice cream I have ever eaten!" The waiter replies, "But sir, that is not vanilla, it`s butterscotch." The guy takes another spoonful and says, "Hey, this is pretty good."
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Old 04-24-2009, 07:41 AM   #68
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Re: Seishiro Endo Shihan - Montreal April 7 - 9 2009



Good one, Charles!
B,
R

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Old 04-24-2009, 07:43 AM   #69
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Re: Seishiro Endo Shihan - Montreal April 7 - 9 2009

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Hi Carl, during the course of a normal keiko just about anywhere, isn't there a mix of the two?

Best,
Ron
Yeah, definitely. I'm not demanding absolutes. I hope I wasn't demanding or expecting anything. Maybe next time someone like me blunders through one of these seminars, someone might say "ah, you are having the same problems as that stumpy guy with the beard off Aikiweb. You need to do this and this. Resist/don't resist me here and help/don't help me when I do this by moving/not moving here."
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Old 04-12-2010, 12:40 PM   #70
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Seishiro Endo Shihan - Montreal April 12-14 2010

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Gabriel Guzman wrote: View Post

For my part, the seminar was excellent, as was the following weekend in Toronto, and we hope to have Endo shihan back again next year. Thank you to everyone for coming out and supporting the event.
Seishiro Endo Shihan - Montreal April 12-14 2010

...and here we are again, one year later, and I am looking forward to the next three evenings with great excitement...for whatever it is worth.

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