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Old 01-24-2012, 08:07 AM   #126
phitruong
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
If you're feeling down then throw up.....

Regards.G.
i thought you suppose to feel them up and throw them down, which is a guruma koshinage which is similar to the way aikido approach.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
http://charlotteaikikai.org
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Old 01-24-2012, 08:21 AM   #127
gregstec
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
hey, that meant the aikiage stuffs i picked up from howie popkin actually worked over the internet! imagine that, his koshernage actually worked!
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Old 01-24-2012, 08:21 AM   #128
DH
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
i thought you're suppose to feel them up and throw them down, which is a guruma koshinage which is similar to the way aikido approach.
Or a very fun night with a feisty friend who likes that sort of thing.
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Old 01-24-2012, 09:15 AM   #129
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
What's new to me is people believing Ueshiba saying you must exert your will on the opponent. I find that hilarious. Hardly universal or spiritual, more old school.
In which way do you contrast "spiritual" and "old school"? The "old schools" / koryu I know are spiritual and are related to a shinto jingu.
Then what does "universal" mean in this context?

Quote:
Well let's just say I can do it how you do and you describe, ...
Well affecting and controlling the structure of someone else's body against his will is something I want to learn, I aim for. It is not something I can do.
And to be honest I know only very few persons who can do this what I understand as using aiki.
So if you can do this, you are much more advanced than most people in aikido I know.
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Old 01-24-2012, 09:48 AM   #130
Mark Freeman
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Well affecting and controlling the structure of someone else's body against his will is something I want to learn, I aim for. It is not something I can do.
And to be honest I know only very few persons who can do this what I understand as using aiki.
So if you can do this, you are much more advanced than most people in aikido I know.
Hi Carsten,

Maybe Dan is correct in his supposition that most people in aikido don't use 'aiki' correctly, so it may be that many people don't know those who can. I'm not sure, as I haven't felt enough people outside of my own practice to make a real informed statement.

However, I have recently been out in India where I practiced with an aikikai group who had little concept of what I was able to do (move them without them realising how I was doing it), so I ended up teaching their sessions for the time I was there.

On the same trip I was lucky enough to practice with some Salimbam guys, who were mighty strong, there was no way of 'blending' or 'flowing' with these chaps. However, by setting up myself correctly ('aiki in me' - thanks Dan ) I was able to move them with relative ease. They were impressed, and so was I

The truth is out there, you just have to find it.

regards

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 01-24-2012, 10:12 AM   #131
DH
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
Hi Carsten,

Maybe Dan is correct in his supposition that most people in aikido don't use 'aiki' correctly, so it may be that many people don't know those who can. I'm not sure, as I haven't felt enough people outside of my own practice to make a real informed statement.

However, I have recently been out in India where I practiced with an aikikai group who had little concept of what I was able to do (move them without them realising how I was doing it), so I ended up teaching their sessions for the time I was there.

On the same trip I was lucky enough to practice with some Salimbam guys, who were mighty strong, there was no way of 'blending' or 'flowing' with these chaps. However, by setting up myself correctly ('aiki in me' - thanks Dan ) I was able to move them with relative ease. They were impressed, and so was I

The truth is out there, you just have to find it.

regards

Mark
You're welcome Mark
Pretty much speaks for itself doesn't it. You can B.S. people on the net, but you can't B.S. this stuff in person.
Imagine ten years from now?
Most budo people-including-aikido have never encountered a methodology that changes them so rapidly and has them doing things they only have read about against resistence. It's why I prefer to train seniors. They already know the drill on the waza stuff, and many are bored. Now they can work on the real deal and in turn, help others.
The fun part is hearing the reaction from the Japanese and Chinese Master teachers over them...
"What the ______ happened to you? You're finally getting it!"
And as one senior aikido teacher said to his Japanese Shihan
"Yeah...no thanks to you."

Dan
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Old 01-24-2012, 10:13 AM   #132
graham christian
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Many of the old guard Japanese Shihan were openly derisive of that idea; many times calling it nonsense and specifically stating that it was not aikido.
You continue to make these claims that you can do what we do (I do) and aikijujutsu people can do and that you understand it. All I have asked, is what the Aikiweb community asked of me, Mike and Ark. Prove it. You have never written anything coherent about it. Or showed up anywhere, or accepted us to test your claims. I think that speaks volumes. You would be wiser not to say these things, because they lead to obvious questions you could avoid.

Credibility
Ueshiba...with his new vision, could and did still move people against their will, and opposite to their line of attack, even harming them occasionally. He also moved connectedly and differently from normal movement. I think the greater aikido community does not understand what Ueshiabs meant by blending and I can point it out in his writing, discuss it, and show it. Again it is the reason the entire discussion of throwing is so skewed in favor of normal movement like judo or jujutsu.

Anyone who makes claims that they can do his aikido. Should feel different and be able to do things that very accomplished budoka consider unusual. Strangely, when I see or feel people who make these claims they cannot even move me (a complete nobody) and they feel like any other person I would find at the mall.

All things being equal, if someone claims they are doing Ueshiba's aikido and they are all but functionally useless and ineffectual...and when they move they sway to and fro, tip, send their own weight outside of their center and in general are just like everyone else... then something is drastically wrong with their logic and self awareness.

Person to person contact makes these things clear. That's why I advocate it with people who disagree. Some seek it out, others avoid it, because their claims of understanding and their voice, will last about one minute (if it takes that long) in a room with everyone watching.
Anyone can offer an opinion of the internet... and everyone gets an "A."
In person....everyone is sized up and graded and everyone knows the truth. With some it doesn't even take that, it is so obvious on video.
Dan
So you see and feel people who make these claims? Everyone sees and meet people who make all kind of claims, that's nothing new, nothing out of the ordinary. I remember many on here from George to others saying similar, it's normal.

If someone, and I mean you in this case, watches a video and thinks they know what the person just did then that is their opinion. It's based on their understanding. When they however are wrong they wouldn't know it would they. They know only it doesn't fit with their concept. I notice you are quite open to say how such and such is wrong, how it's sway and weight moving outside of center yet at the same time unaware of how come it works then?

Everyone with something worthwhile to say on the internet gets an 'A' and deserves it.

Meeting others to make things clear? To prove? Ha, that may be your way but not mine. Trained with all kinds of people from Judoka, kung fu, wing chun, tai chi, karate, etc. etc. so don't give me the go out and meet others line. Been there, done that, met challenges, all a past phase for me.

Every single Aikidoka or otherwise I have ever met has gone away having learned what else there is to Aikido. Not one budoka ever has been other than surprised and sure found it unusual and more than that, enlightening.

I am not like you Dan, I am like one person only, me. I need to prove nothing now. I need not to be in some grading system. I work on the basis that when the student is ready he or she will come. Very simple. If no one comes, I'm happy, if ten thousand come, I'm happy.

Ha, ha, I've met so many who sum up what's what in a minute or so. They come, they go, theyre always there.

They come, I teach, they realize, they improve. That about sums me up. Nothing special.

Regards.G.

Last edited by akiy : 01-24-2012 at 10:23 AM. Reason: Fixed quote tag
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Old 01-24-2012, 10:18 AM   #133
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
The truth is out there, you just have to find it.
I'm on my way ...

... step by step.
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Old 01-24-2012, 11:03 AM   #134
graham christian
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
I'm on my way ...

... step by step.
Carsten, if you want to impose your will and make others move as per 'aiki' then go for it.

Old school? Basically, fear based. Most past martial arts are and koryu etc. Such is history.

Universal? Moving and doing and being in alignment with universal principles where there is no exrtion of will, no intention to control, no against. Quite a contrast wouldn't you say?

Anyway, you'll get a taste of it when you do the 'aiki' so don't let me put you off.

More advanced than many you know? Probably yes. Does it matter? No.

Regards.G.
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Old 01-24-2012, 11:39 AM   #135
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
If someone, and I mean you in this case, watches a video and thinks they know what the person just did then that is their opinion. It's based on their understanding. When they however are wrong they wouldn't know it would they. They know only it doesn't fit with their concept. I notice you are quite open to say how such and such is wrong, how it's sway and weight moving outside of center yet at the same time unaware of how come it works then? .
Graham
In my limited understanding of it all, I know that the body works in certain ways, with alignments in place to allow the work to happen. You can look and if those alignments are not in play then the other stuff is not happening or is happening at such a reduced level that things happen only through cooperation.

Generally for the body of be stable the center needs to be held within the base, spine is held straight, the parallels running across the body.... like through the eyes, across the chest, center/hips and the like remain perpendicular to the spine. Turning is around the the spine from the center with the hips following....and a bunch of other things that I know are in play but I don't have a handle on. So how do you destabilize someone prepping them for falling, and then drop yourself (could be only inches or not even visible) leading them to imbalance and the fall before they realize they are destabilized and recover? Well you move their center outside their base, you tweak the spine, maybe by bending the head, you put some of the parallels out of perpendicular with the spine, raise there center, things like that. Double weighting to one side is another indicator that the destabilization may be a function of what is happening.

So if you look at a video and see these same conditions in the nage you have an idea that the individual is operating at some level below optimum with regards to being fully integrated and moving as one.

just my thoughts
Gary
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Old 01-24-2012, 12:16 PM   #136
DH
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Hi Gary
I can think of a virtual laundry list of tell tale markers when it comes to the subject of throwing non cooperative people with aiki and what Nage's body should look like if he were connected and how it would and should effect an uke. And all that with or without alignment.
But Grahams post to me shows a disinterest in corrections. As he said in answer to a review of his movement:
"How can you explain why it works then?"
My answer is; it doesn't....without cooperation.
There is no power
There is no aiki
There is no displacement
There is no connection within yourself much less to another person.

I said this before when he openly asked for a review of his video then I got nowhere in answering his question other than I was the one who didn't understand. So...I asked to come feel. Got nowhere there as well. Oh well.

I do like the fact that Graham and I can disagree-even strongly-without all the vituperation. As George said, "Do we really need to lay waste to someone who disagrees?"

I still think a one-on-one would be informative, funny (you know me-I just can't take this stuff seriously) and answer questions on both sides. I know he cannot do what he thinks he can...and he says I can't do what he does. How much fun would that be? Hell, we could charge admission and all go to dinner after!
Anyway. There isn't much to be resolved on the net, and when someone refuses to meet and demonstrate their claimed understanding. It's sort of it's own answer. It is worth noting that you guys were no where near as polite to me. Good Grief! Nor did anyone acknowledge how terribly wrong ya'll were.
Dan
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Old 01-24-2012, 12:43 PM   #137
graham christian
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Quote:
Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Graham
In my limited understanding of it all, I know that the body works in certain ways, with alignments in place to allow the work to happen. You can look and if those alignments are not in play then the other stuff is not happening or is happening at such a reduced level that things happen only through cooperation.

Generally for the body of be stable the center needs to be held within the base, spine is held straight, the parallels running across the body.... like through the eyes, across the chest, center/hips and the like remain perpendicular to the spine. Turning is around the the spine from the center with the hips following....and a bunch of other things that I know are in play but I don't have a handle on. So how do you destabilize someone prepping them for falling, and then drop yourself (could be only inches or not even visible) leading them to imbalance and the fall before they realize they are destabilized and recover? Well you move their center outside their base, you tweak the spine, maybe by bending the head, you put some of the parallels out of perpendicular with the spine, raise there center, things like that. Double weighting to one side is another indicator that the destabilization may be a function of what is happening.

So if you look at a video and see these same conditions in the nage you have an idea that the individual is operating at some level below optimum with regards to being fully integrated and moving as one.

just my thoughts
Gary
Yes. From that viewpoint you would come to such conclusions. However, then you would have to know what it is the person was actually doing. Physically speaking what you say is correct.

Let's take center. Center of what? If you are limited to the view of center of the body and thus need to always work from that then you wouldn't be able to see how someone keeps centered even when the body is apparently not.

I teach people to keep centered when falling, breakfalling, when twisted up in knots, whatever.

Lets add to that center line shall we.(vertical line) Physically speaking this leads to correct posture and moving whilst maintaining this correct posture and facing with correct posture etc.

Low and behold it of itself is not physical. You can sit crouched over and yet maintain center line.

Only the other day I met a neighbor who had a bad back. I listened to all his reasons why and how his work didn't help so he was mentioning posture and what this person said and that person said and what he was trying to do.

I gave him a simple exercise and he liked it. I had him imagining a vertical line running through his body and asked what happened when he bent over or leaned over in different ways. He enthusiastically told me how that's it, he loses balance or has to strain the wrong places to keep balance and that's why this and that's why that. However he was wondering why I was smiling.

I then got him to repeat the exercise but this time have the center line staying vertical independent of the body and how he was moving it. He found that freeing somehow. He found that fascinating.

I then told him how to get correct posture or check for it. All you do is Allow your body to join center line. (allow it to, don't make it)

As with all the lines and circles etc. they are all actually real and indeed moveable. I can have center line behind me or in front of me depending.

So all this yeah but the body has this and the body has that is one realm but one only. Lokking at body motion from that limited view gives limited understanding. That's all really

Regards.G.
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Old 01-24-2012, 12:54 PM   #138
graham christian
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hi Gary
I can think of a virtual laundry list of tell tale markers when it comes to the subject of throwing non cooperative people with aiki and what Nage's body should look like if he were connected and how it would and should effect an uke. And all that with or without alignment.
But Grahams post to me shows a disinterest in corrections. As he said in answer to a review of his movement:
"How can you explain why it works then?"
My answer is; it doesn't....without cooperation.
There is no power
There is no aiki
There is no displacement
There is no connection within yourself much less to another person.

I said this before when he openly asked for a review of his video then I got nowhere in answering his question other than I was the one who didn't understand. So...I asked to come feel. Got nowhere there as well. Oh well.

I do like the fact that Graham and I can disagree-even strongly-without all the vituperation. As George said, "Do we really need to lay waste to someone who disagrees?"

I still think a one-on-one would be informative, funny (you know me-I just can't take this stuff seriously) and answer questions on both sides. I know he cannot do what he thinks he can...and he says I can't do what he does. How much fun would that be? Hell, we could charge admission and all go to dinner after!
Anyway. There isn't much to be resolved on the net, and when someone refuses to meet and demonstrate their claimed understanding. It's sort of it's own answer. It is worth noting that you guys were no where near as polite to me. Good Grief! Nor did anyone acknowledge how terribly wrong ya'll were.
Dan
Dan. Your answer is that it doesn't work other than on co operative ukes. Thus, as I am the one doing it I can tell you that is an incorrect statement.

Did I ask for you to review any video? No. Did I ask anyone to? No. I merely put it up for orientation on what I do but found it's what people do anyway, review and criticize that is. Oh well, so be it.

Did you ask to come feel? No. What a strange thing to say.

Care to explain?

Regards.G.
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Old 01-24-2012, 01:00 PM   #139
DH
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Dan. Your answer is that it doesn't work other than on co operative ukes. Thus, as I am the one doing it I can tell you that is an incorrect statement.

Did I ask for you to review any video? No. Did I ask anyone to? No. I merely put it up for orientation on what I do but found it's what people do anyway, review and criticize that is. Oh well, so be it.

Did you ask to come feel? No. What a strange thing to say.

Care to explain?

Regards.G.
1. You've never shown your skills except on highly cooperative and apparently new uke's. Your remarks about understanding center-particularly in regards to throwing don't pan out, so we looked back at your videos and Mary. Note I was not the one who first did so. Critiques are cristisisms.
Another example is you reply to Gary. What you say would be true accept the criticial points that you can't pull off; Someone who is connected and move very loosely, but the result of their movement has a marked effect on uke that has other tell tale markers on you and uke that I am not going to mention. But they are missing. There are maybe a couple hundred people here who have watched them and discussed them along with many, many, others they just never bring up. Some of them with very famous teachers..


2. You put up videos on sword and talked about them, then you did on your aikido and talked about them
3. I asked you to come as my guest to a seminar or failing that if I could drop by. You told me you were uninterested. I thought it would be a blast. I specifically remember telling you we would probably laugh our asses off and have fun. I even offered to take you to dinner. It's here somewhere on one of the threads. I will be in England probably twice this year and the offer still stands. Every time people meet up here ...it turns into a lot of fun and people make friends. It's better than arguing or debating over physical skills best demonstrated one on one.
And if you note.....The results of these meet ups are usually pretty quiet and friendly and they continue. Why? It goes back to what I think about all of us as budo-ka. We are of a type.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 01-24-2012 at 01:14 PM.
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Old 01-24-2012, 01:18 PM   #140
graham christian
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Sure
1.you put up videos on sword and talked about them, then you did on your aikido and talked about them
2. I asked you to come as my guest to a seminar or failing that if I could drop by. You told me you were uninterested. I thought it would be a blast. I specifically remember telling you we would probably laugh our asses off and have fun. I even offered to take you to dinner. It's here somewhere on one of the threads.
Dan
The videos and my assumptions have been stated.

Being asked to come as your guest? Even you dropping by? No. Never happened or I never read it. I definitely didn't refuse therefore.

As I recall on the London visit I offered a few examples of places you could visit or might find interesting.

I do remember in a private message you saying how what you say above (laughing etc) would be the case but hardly an invitation to your seminar as a guest.

I even remember telling my co-teacher friend Bob about you and that you were coming to London and that according to what you had said was looking for somewhere to stay possibly. He said that If I hear you were stuck that he would willingly put you up, no problem. It seems to me you had it all sorted so didn't need to in the end.

Anyway, believe it or not I would probably have politely declined the offer.

I had so many private messages from various sources saying I should go it all seemed a bit weird. Like some kind of show.

Regards.G.
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Old 01-24-2012, 01:41 PM   #141
akiy
 
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Hi folks,

Please turn your discussion back to the topic rather than towards each other.

-- Jun

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Old 01-24-2012, 02:27 PM   #142
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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David Soroko wrote: View Post
Anyone one can, this is not value judgement, this is as factual as carpentry. If one takes out the martial out the martial art, something essential is lost. If one is tea intolerant and can't touch or smell the stuff one can't do chado. One could go through the motions of the tea ceremony with say Rooibos, but something essential will be missing ad in no way this will be a "Way".

Anyone can see that.
No, actually my point is that it isn't nearly so obvious as you suggest.

To use your example, why exactly *can't* you have a tea ceremony with Rooibos? True, it isn't "authentic," but what does that matter?

I'm not pushing on this just for the sake of stirring the pot, but because I think it's problematic to equate "not what I do" with "wrong."

Katherine
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Old 01-24-2012, 02:35 PM   #143
DH
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

Throwing and connection
The thing that is supposed to separate aiki people from the normal mechanics of throwing is first and foremost what Ueshiba discussed as in yo... in us. Within us. It not only changes the way you feel its changes the way someone interacts with you. Without it there is no aiki. Period. Without that every person who discusses throws ends up talking about things predicated on normal jujutsu throws.

The person -with aiki- will have their own set of dilemmas of fitting in for a throw and interacting with the straights in budo (those untrained in IP/aiki). There are things a person with aiki will have to throttle back on, relearn, along with other things they can do that normal people cannot. Your interactions with the straights in budo will continue to change as your internal connections strengthen inside you.

Something as simple as "When one thing moves....everything moves" is difficult, and has a marked effect on people. And it is not al the same. Tohei was not Ueshiba. In several areas they were doing different things. Ueshiba talked about things Tohei never addressed and did not have in his movement. You can see it in them, and once you train certian things you can see it on your partner...on contact.
Which brings up the more critical aspects of kuzushi on contact. In and of itself it is obvious instantly whether someone has aiki or not. Sagawa used to say all he had to do was watch you do aiki age and it was over...he knew. That creates it's own challenges to overcome when someone cannot put any force into you any more and you have to alter your practice. Case in point is I launch people to a standing postion-sometimes higher than their own feet and they comes back down...all from Kokyu dosa. That messes up things up. So you learn to throttle way back. Think of what that would do to Tenchi nage or any other throw...
I can go into a process about shoulders but from what I have seen people have a loooong way to go to overcome those issues and move from their centers for the first time. They acknowledge it and discuss it and then go right back to shoulder use.
Then you can discuss all the additives; issuing power, absorbing each on its own separately or at the same time-often used by Ueshiba and not Tohei. There are many dilemmas fitting in and training that are faced by someone with aiki that I have never even seen discussed on aikiweb.

On a very simple level of figuring out who is full of it and full of themselves? We can look at the interaction in any manner of levels, but there is clear evidence available for us all in an example offered by O sensei:

Leave budo out of it, leave waza untouched and walk up to someone and do the Ueshiba test.
Every person who so much as grabbed him to try something all said he felt different and they knew right away.
Go lay hands on someone.
If they don't feel different than normal people?
They don't know what Ueshiba was talking about
They don't know what they are talking about when it comes to aiki.
Everything else is judo or jujutsu.

When none of the above is displayed...or discussed, it pretty much speaks about the aikido-ka's power and skills. Their dilemmas are the same as the TKD guy at the mall or a judo guys.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 01-24-2012 at 02:48 PM.
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Old 01-24-2012, 02:41 PM   #144
kewms
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Define "purely spiritual pursuit".
An activity engaged in for the purpose of spiritual self-development. For purposes of this discussion, an activity engaged in because the participant finds it helps them, and in which the participant has chosen not to concern themselves with externally measurable results.

To take things out of the highly charged martial arts realm, lots of people run. Some runners compete. Is the 3-hour marathoner who wants to run in Boston "better" than the person who shuffles their way through a 5K fun run? Or someone who just likes going for a run in the park with their dog and doesn't even carry a watch?

He's faster, sure, but he's not all *that* fast. It's not like a 3-hour marathon is anything special in the grand scheme of things. They're both going to get comparable physical health benefits, although the park runner is probably less susceptible to overuse injuries and might actually be more "fit" on measures other than cardiovascular endurance.

The park runner will tell you that he runs because he enjoys the sunshine and the quiet time with his dog. He knows he can't compete with marathon guy, but he doesn't care. Who are we to tell him that he's wrong?

Katherine
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Old 01-24-2012, 03:35 PM   #145
mathewjgano
 
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
No, actually my point is that it isn't nearly so obvious as you suggest.

To use your example, why exactly *can't* you have a tea ceremony with Rooibos? True, it isn't "authentic," but what does that matter?

I'm not pushing on this just for the sake of stirring the pot, but because I think it's problematic to equate "not what I do" with "wrong."

Katherine
I agee with this idea...and I would go so far as to suggest the idea of "wrong" is rarely usefull when talking to strangers. For the sake of discussions with people we're not very familiar with (and often even with people we are), I think it's usually better to couch the language in the "not what I do" manner...even when we are absolutely confident they're wrong.
Most people I've met who practiced the "way of tea" liked tea, but that was't the point of the practice. "The" point wasn't to make tea...because there are much quicker ways of doing that, particularly for the newer student of tea-making. "Martial" arts are similar with regard to actual martial encounters; most of us will never have a martial-like encounter, let alone an actual one.
The "tea-making" is the medium through which other traits are developed; very similar to the so-called "martial" arts. The goal is not to throw...so much as to use the activity to develop other desirable traits (too)...and that will vary based on the leadership of the school.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 01-24-2012 at 03:43 PM.

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Old 01-24-2012, 03:48 PM   #146
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
The park runner will tell you that he runs because he enjoys the sunshine and the quiet time with his dog. He knows he can't compete with marathon guy, but he doesn't care.
Does he call himself "marathon runner" and says people who runs marathons don't understand what "marathon running" is?

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Who are we to tell him that he's wrong?
People who train for actual marathon running? People who think 5K are not 42K? People who run 42K in less than 3 hours for fun, or for money, or for glory, or for taking himself physically and mentally to his limits and learn from the experience?

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Old 01-24-2012, 05:01 PM   #147
Gary David
 
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Let's take center. Center of what? If you are limited to the view of center of the body and thus need to always work from that then you wouldn't be able to see how someone keeps centered even when the body is apparently not.

I teach people to keep centered when falling, breakfalling, when twisted up in knots, whatever.

Lets add to that center line shall we.(vertical line) Physically speaking this leads to correct posture and moving whilst maintaining this correct posture and facing with correct posture etc.

Low and behold it of itself is not physical. You can sit crouched over and yet maintain center line..
Graham
There are some constants that we all have to deal with in the realms that I am aware of.....one of these is gravity.. When your physical center gets to far outside of your base gravity takes over and you fall.....there is no getting around this. One can bend at the waist...at some point one starts to destabilize followed by imbalance and the fall... You can not get away from this...it just is. With this levels of stabilization can be seen in the movement of others Now maybe this constant does not hold true with Buckaroo Bonzai in the 8th Demension, in Asgard, or some other place/state, but here in the 4th world it does.

If by centered you are talking to a state where one keeps it all together..........even here gravity can have an effect....toss someone off the building they can remained centered until the hit they ground.....the fall will be completed.

just go with it
Gary
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Old 01-24-2012, 05:24 PM   #148
graham christian
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Gary Welborn wrote: View Post
Graham
There are some constants that we all have to deal with in the realms that I am aware of.....one of these is gravity.. When your physical center gets to far outside of your base gravity takes over and you fall.....there is no getting around this. One can bend at the waist...at some point one starts to destabilize followed by imbalance and the fall... You can not get away from this...it just is. With this levels of stabilization can be seen in the movement of others Now maybe this constant does not hold true with Buckaroo Bonzai in the 8th Demension, in Asgard, or some other place/state, but here in the 4th world it does.

If by centered you are talking to a state where one keeps it all together..........even here gravity can have an effect....toss someone off the building they can remained centered until the hit they ground.....the fall will be completed.

just go with it
Gary
Yes there is a constant. Center is a constant. But as I said, center of what? Read todays Doka as an example.

Center gives stability so if you are connected, aware of your own center you will be that much more stable. If you are aware of what center can do and allow it to do it you will be even more stable.

You will also be able to trust center rather than shape of body.

Then we come to balance, as in kuzushi, as in taking someones in order to throw them.

Balance and center. Are they the same? For me no. There is stability and there is balance. They work together as do all principles but are not the same.

Case in point being your reference to gravity. Fall over and you have lost your balance but keep centered and relaxed and it will be unharmful, no problem, even enjoyable.

I think you will recall the thread on break falls and my assertion that how you harmonize with the ground is the breakfall. Once again, keeping centered and relaxed.

So balance is different.

Regards.G.
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Old 01-24-2012, 06:55 PM   #149
David Orange
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Carsten, if you want to impose your will and make others move as per 'aiki' then go for it.
Graham, haven't you ever seen the quote by Ueshiba where he says something like "Aiki is the power to make people do what I want them to do."?

I've seen it and I keep expecting someone to post it again.

Aikido is not supposed to be "accidentally" effective, but intentionally very effective.

Someone please post that quote by Ueshiba.

Thanks.

David

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Lao Tzu

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Old 01-24-2012, 07:42 PM   #150
kewms
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Re: "The goal is not to throw"

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Does he call himself "marathon runner" and says people who runs marathons don't understand what "marathon running" is?
Nope. Although he might suggest that marathon runners are so focused on their times that they miss some of the pleasures of the journey.

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People who train for actual marathon running? People who think 5K are not 42K? People who run 42K in less than 3 hours for fun, or for money, or for glory, or for taking himself physically and mentally to his limits and learn from the experience?
Also a valid practice. But not "better" or "worse," just different.

Katherine
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