Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Techniques

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-03-2011, 07:47 AM   #26
NagaBaba
 
NagaBaba's Avatar
Location: Wild, deep, deadly North
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,136
Offline
Re: Jo Dori Clip

Quote:
Dieter Haffner wrote: View Post
If I may add something new to the discussion.

There seems to be a little hick-up in the movement of tori.
When tori steps out of the line of attack and makes contact with the jo or uke, there seems to be a little pauze. Upon which tori continues the technique.
I would prefer to see the waza in one fluent motion.

But I guess it has something to do with the Himejians as well.
Yes this is good observation. Some aikido styles do weapons in Start-Stop method, and the result is a real disaster.
Generally the techniques on this video have very low quality. The level is maximum 5th kyu and not black belt.
Some points from very rudimentary, physical point of view:
Both students are very stiff.
Attacks have not martial intent.
Balance of attacker is not taken in the moment of contact.
Nage is not interested to attack the center of uke but instead is concentrated in the jo catching and later waving jo as attacker doesn't exist.
There is no connection between both students, everybody plays his role separately.
Nage is not doing any locks seriously, so there is no question about even minimum effectiveness(as it can be obtained in dojo context ). Nage would never be able to take jo out of attacker if attacker decide to hold(I'm not even talking here about any serious counter) it for real.
The leading principle doesn't exist.
Nage is not controlling attacker at any moment.
..ok I'l not discuss here any more sophisticated no-physical aspects to demonstrate, unless all above point are not mastered there is no point to talk about it.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2011, 07:54 AM   #27
Cliff Judge
Dojo: Aikido Shobukan Dojo
Location: Columbia, MD
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 964
United_States
Offline
Re: Jo Dori Clip

I am having the same kind of gut reaction to the way the jo is returned to uke as many on this thread.

I guess to me, and this is my very humble opinion, it looks uncontrolled and messy. Since your technique looks quite crisp and focused, suddenly releasing the jo to clatter to the mat is particularly out of place.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2011, 08:01 AM   #28
grondahl
Dojo: Stockholms Aikidoklubb
Location: Stockholm
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 550
Sweden
Offline
Re: Jo Dori Clip

Your initial maai seems a little bit of to me, to far apart which makes the attacks weak.

And uke should not get up before nage lets him. Now he just rolls up to standing despite having a jo more or less in his face.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2011, 04:38 AM   #29
PEC
Location: Vigo
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 12
Spain
Offline
Re: Jo Dori Clip

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
Yes this is good observation. Some aikido styles do weapons in Start-Stop method, and the result is a real disaster.
Generally the techniques on this video have very low quality. The level is maximum 5th kyu and not black belt.
Some points from very rudimentary, physical point of view:
Both students are very stiff.
Attacks have not martial intent.
Balance of attacker is not taken in the moment of contact.
Nage is not interested to attack the center of uke but instead is concentrated in the jo catching and later waving jo as attacker doesn't exist.
There is no connection between both students, everybody plays his role separately.
Nage is not doing any locks seriously, so there is no question about even minimum effectiveness(as it can be obtained in dojo context ). Nage would never be able to take jo out of attacker if attacker decide to hold(I'm not even talking here about any serious counter) it for real.
The leading principle doesn't exist.
Nage is not controlling attacker at any moment.
..ok I'l not discuss here any more sophisticated no-physical aspects to demonstrate, unless all above point are not mastered there is no point to talk about it.
Thank you for your comments
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2011, 05:57 PM   #30
ChrisHein
 
ChrisHein's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido of Fresno
Location: Fresno , CA
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,628
United_States
Offline
Re: Jo Dori Clip

Nice clip.

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2011, 03:01 PM   #31
George S. Ledyard
 
George S. Ledyard's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,633
Offline
Re: Jo Dori Clip

Quote:
Lyle Laizure wrote: View Post
I was taught and teach that you do not give a weapon back to your attacker.
I was taught that you do give it back to them. But if you are going to lay it down, rather than hand it back, then you do so mindfully. Throwing it down is sloppy, is disrespectful of both the opponent and the audience. You never see anything like that in koryu.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2011, 05:00 AM   #32
PEC
Location: Vigo
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 12
Spain
Offline
Re: Jo Dori Clip

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
I was taught that you do give it back to them. But if you are going to lay it down, rather than hand it back, then you do so mindfully. Throwing it down is sloppy, is disrespectful of both the opponent and the audience. You never see anything like that in koryu.
Sensei Ledyard, I don't want to be disrespectful (because you are always a gentle person in your posts and a highly skilled Aikido Sensei), but I just want to point out that our dojo was taught this way by Paolo Corallini Shihan, 7th dan Aikikai (he has been promoted this week, congratulations!). Corallini Sensei spent great amounts of time with Saito Sensei who promoted him to 7th dan Takemusu Aiki (Iwama Ryu). Saito Sensei, as Corallini Sensei always tells in his seminars taught him this way also. Saito Sensei spent 23 years with O'Sensei. I don't know, but I have to guess, this is the way that O'Sensei used to train also, or at least, teach Saito Sensei.

I've heard the reasons for doing one way or another, and I sincerely, prefer doing it this way, so is the way our dojo expect us to. I understand that you do not see anything like that in koryu, but Aikido isn't a koryu, so I don't find that a valid argument.

Hope I explained myself clearly

Best,

Pablo Estévez

Edit: grammar
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2011, 05:09 AM   #33
Alex Megann
Dojo: Southampton Aikikai
Location: Southampton
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 346
England
Offline
Re: Jo Dori Clip

I've never seen anyone throw a jo in this context.

Here is a nice clip of Saito Sensei teaching jo dori. Notice that he hands the jo back to his partner, and does not throw it.

Saito clip

Alex
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2011, 01:26 PM   #34
Flintstone
Dojo: Wherever I happen to be
Location: Zaragoza
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 587
Spain
Offline
Re: Jo Dori Clip

Quote:
Alex Megann wrote: View Post
I've never seen anyone throw a jo in this context.

Here is a nice clip of Saito Sensei teaching jo dori. Notice that he hands the jo back to his partner, and does not throw it.

Saito clip

Alex
Teaching is not performing. What the OP did in the video is the way it's taught in Iwama and those guys have a pure and pristine lineage straight to the founder.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2011, 02:58 PM   #35
grondahl
Dojo: Stockholms Aikidoklubb
Location: Stockholm
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 550
Sweden
Offline
Re: Jo Dori Clip

I dont think that I have seen any senior Iwama-style teacher except Corallini throw the weapons like that.

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Teaching is not performing. What the OP did in the video is the way it's taught in Iwama and those guys have a pure and pristine lineage straight to the founder.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2011, 05:01 AM   #36
Carsten Möllering
 
Carsten Möllering's Avatar
Dojo: Hildesheimer Aikido Verein
Location: Hildesheim
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 821
Germany
Offline
Re: Jo Dori Clip

Patricia Guerri shows it (throwing down the weapon) this way on her buki waza DVD.
And also on youtube ... ;-)

I had never seen that and talked to some german students of Iwama ryu. They are used to this way of handling the weapons also. And they explained to me why.
But I don't know the name of their sensei.

Last edited by Carsten Möllering : 01-13-2011 at 05:04 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2011, 06:26 AM   #37
grondahl
Dojo: Stockholms Aikidoklubb
Location: Stockholm
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 550
Sweden
Offline
Re: Jo Dori Clip

Apparently different Iwama-teachers teaches different reigi concerning this.

Lewis de Quiros does not throw the bokken around.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXWIG8Mk6BM
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2011, 07:23 AM   #38
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,910
Spain
Offline
Re: Jo Dori Clip

Ulf Evenas does both things (0:30-0:44)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhg77RfwJx0

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2011, 07:50 AM   #39
grondahl
Dojo: Stockholms Aikidoklubb
Location: Stockholm
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 550
Sweden
Offline
Re: Jo Dori Clip

I think that there is a difference between the throwing of the weapon that Guerri does (and in the video that started the thread) and what Evenås does, in all demos I have seen with him he bends down and slides the jo away (or gives it directly to uke).
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2011, 09:06 AM   #40
sorokod
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 596
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Jo Dori Clip

Another example where the weapon is 'discarded'. This one is with Saito Morihiro sensei

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJLdvFkuGtI

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2011, 09:21 AM   #41
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,910
Spain
Offline
Re: Jo Dori Clip

The problem with OP clip is not the weapon being discarded but it seems he throws it with "attitude".

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2011, 10:00 AM   #42
Flintstone
Dojo: Wherever I happen to be
Location: Zaragoza
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 587
Spain
Offline
Re: Jo Dori Clip

Oh, and everybody knows Aikido es about "loosing attitude".
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2011, 10:03 AM   #43
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,910
Spain
Offline
Re: Jo Dori Clip

Loosing or losing?

  Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2011, 10:16 PM   #44
Andrew Macdonald
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 126
Offline
Re: Jo Dori Clip

I am not sure about the weapon thing,

The idea that you shouldn;t give the weapon back to the attacker, while valid is kinda misplaced here since it is not a real situation and besides throwing the weapon down is giving it back to the attacker. sounds a little like some one trying to qualify what they are doing but saying their training is more real. in the very unlikey event that someone attcked me with a jo (maybe pool cue, could happen i guess) and i got it off him. i would be using the weapon on the other guy, or just taking it away with me, throwing it anywhere even behind, means i have lost control of it, and is inviting anyone to pick it up agian

There did seem to be alot of attitude in the nage when he threw the weapon down, I am not sure of that is for the crowds sake or not

above all of this there just didn't seem to be alot of blending with the attck in the clips, the nage grabbed the weapon and then stopped, this kida made a lot of the rest of the technique look forced
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2011, 05:41 AM   #45
Flintstone
Dojo: Wherever I happen to be
Location: Zaragoza
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 587
Spain
Offline
Re: Jo Dori Clip

Quote:
Andrew Macdonald wrote: View Post
The idea that you shouldn;t give the weapon back to the attacker, while valid is kinda misplaced here since it is not a real situation and besides throwing the weapon down is giving it back to the attacker. sounds a little like some one trying to qualify what they are doing but saying their training is more real. in the very unlikey event that someone attcked me with a jo (maybe pool cue, could happen i guess) and i got it off him. i would be using the weapon on the other guy, or just taking it away with me, throwing it anywhere even behind, means i have lost control of it, and is inviting anyone to pick it up agian
The idea is to give it back, so they can continue the training. Obviously. But not in a manner where the attacker can well, attack, immediately.

Quote:
Andrew Macdonald wrote: View Post
There did seem to be alot of attitude in the nage when he threw the weapon down, I am not sure of that is for the crowds sake or not
I guess it's just that they are not "experts". As I am not.

Quote:
Andrew Macdonald wrote: View Post
above all of this there just didn't seem to be alot of blending with the attck in the clips, the nage grabbed the weapon and then stopped, this kida made a lot of the rest of the technique look forced
Well, this is where the words "kihon" or "gotai" come to my mind.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2011, 05:43 AM   #46
Flintstone
Dojo: Wherever I happen to be
Location: Zaragoza
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 587
Spain
Offline
Re: Jo Dori Clip

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Loosing or losing?
Or... both?
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2011, 06:29 AM   #47
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,789
United_States
Offline
Re: Jo Dori Clip

Quote:
Andrew Macdonald wrote: View Post
I am not sure about the weapon thing,

The idea that you shouldn;t give the weapon back to the attacker, while valid is kinda misplaced here since it is not a real situation and besides throwing the weapon down is giving it back to the attacker.
This is where reishiki comes into play. Reishiki includes (among other things) the protocol from withdrawing at the conclusion of the kata, and also for exchanging weapons when you change roles. I doubt there's a ryu out there in which reishiki includes throwing down the weapon.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2011, 01:15 PM   #48
Carsten Möllering
 
Carsten Möllering's Avatar
Dojo: Hildesheimer Aikido Verein
Location: Hildesheim
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 821
Germany
Offline
Re: Jo Dori Clip

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
I doubt there's a ryu out there in which reishiki includes throwing down the weapon.
Well, as I said before, the members of Iwama ryu I personally know, assured me, that their reishiki does.
And explained me why.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2011, 01:35 PM   #49
Dan Rubin
Dojo: Boulder Aikikai
Location: Denver, Colorado
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 333
United_States
Offline
Re: Jo Dori Clip

I would fear damaging the mat.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2011, 07:49 PM   #50
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,789
United_States
Offline
Re: Jo Dori Clip

Quote:
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Well, as I said before, the members of Iwama ryu I personally know, assured me, that their reishiki does.
And explained me why.
You said that, but you didn't say what the explanation was.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Correlation of Aikido and Daito-Ryu Waza John Driscoll Columns 28 08-04-2013 05:01 PM
Bokken and Jo questions seank Weapons 19 01-13-2010 09:06 AM
Bokken and jo set from Aikiwood Jennifer Yabut Weapons 13 11-07-2009 12:46 PM
Testing requirements kyu levels arjandevries Testing 10 08-07-2006 08:26 PM
Systema Seminar with Vladimir Vasiliev, Part 1 aikibaka131 Seminars 2 07-22-2003 12:45 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:12 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate