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-   -   Jo Dori Clip (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19139)

PEC 12-31-2010 10:48 AM

Jo Dori Clip
 
Hi, here's a small clip from a recent demo our dojo did in our town.
I'm the guy with the beard :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ct9gdglH5fs

Criticism is welcome.

For more info about our dojo: http://www.taae.es

jbblack 12-31-2010 04:14 PM

Re: Jo Dori Clip
 
Thanks for posting. Just a small point, I would not throw the jo onto the mat. Cheers, Jeff

Lyle Laizure 12-31-2010 07:51 PM

Re: Jo Dori Clip
 
I was taught and teach that you do not give a weapon back to your attacker.

mickeygelum 12-31-2010 08:36 PM

Re: Jo Dori Clip
 
Quote:

I was taught and teach that you do not give a weapon back to your attacker
It is a demo...What are they suppose to do?:confused:
Then assuming your statement is accurate, you were never shown how to properly return the weapon to your uke or nage, depending on your role.

Quote:

Just a small point, I would not throw the jo onto the mat
I also agree that throwing the weapon down is wrong.

Train well ,

Mickey

niall 12-31-2010 10:18 PM

Re: Jo Dori Clip
 
Happy new year, Pablo. I thought you both were excellent. A couple of technical points to think about.

As tori don't try to catch the weapon too soon (3rd technique and once or twice after that). It's the same principle as in taijutsu. For example in kotegaeshi against a tsuki attack you don't try to catch the wrist. If you control the whole arm your hand will slide naturally and easily on to the wrist.

As uke I felt that you were sometimes releasing your grip on the jo too early (in some of the zenpo nage throws). When you hold a weapon it's a good idea to try to keep it for as long as possible.

But very nice job and thanks for sharing it. And you can always ask your teacher for criticism.

Niall

Eric Winters 12-31-2010 10:29 PM

Re: Jo Dori Clip
 
Hello,

I have got to say that was horrible weapons etiquette. The techniques were OK but a lot of upperbody, shoulder strength and not enough hips (which to be fair I can get a little that way sometimes as well). Also when the attacker is in tsuki kamae, bring the rear hand further back to the rear hip.

Best,

Eric Winters

Chris Li 12-31-2010 11:24 PM

Re: Jo Dori Clip
 
Quote:

Eric Winters wrote: (Post 271477)
I have got to say that was horrible weapons etiquette.

Weapons etiquette varies greatly from place to place - what's horrible in one place is common in another.

Best,

Chris

Carsten M÷llering 01-01-2011 03:13 AM

Re: Jo Dori Clip
 
Quote:

Christopher Li wrote: (Post 271482)
Weapons etiquette varies greatly from place to place - what's horrible in one place is common in another.

Yes.

Throwing the weapon onto the mat or giving it back to the attacker is not an issue. It's just a feature of a given line of tradition.

I one dojo you learn "you must not throw the weapon down and you have to give it back in a safe way ". (Which is what I learned.)
In another dojo you learn "you must not give back the attacking weapon for another attack. And you must not hold the weapon which is carrying the spirit of the attacker longer then needed". (I think this is mostly taught in the line of Saito sensei?)

When I practiced for the first time in a dojo of Takemusu aiki and handed back the sword to the attacker as I learned it, I nearly caused a little "turmoil". ;)

sorokod 01-01-2011 05:25 AM

Re: Jo Dori Clip
 
Regarding the etiquette, I have seen both approaches demonstrated by senior people within the Iwama tradition.

Maybe when doing a sequence of techniques, each ending with a strike to the head of the attacker, one does not want to break the flow and "step out of character" so to speak.

sorokod 01-01-2011 07:39 AM

Re: Jo Dori Clip
 
An example with tachi dori from Paolo Corallini Shihan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nmr2wi0Vfk

PEC 01-01-2011 09:25 AM

Re: Jo Dori Clip
 
Thanks for all the comments! Very much appreciated.
Eric, I agree with the "too much shoulder strength" remark. I'll keep training with that in mind.
Niall, happy new year! Yes, you're right about catching the weapon too soon. I'll try to correct that.

Regarding etiquette, we follow Iwama style under Paolo Corallini Shihan, and throwing the weapon to the mat is the way we were taught to return it for another attack.

PEC 01-01-2011 10:24 AM

Re: Jo Dori Clip
 
Quote:

Niall Matthews wrote: (Post 271475)
As uke I felt that you were sometimes releasing your grip on the jo too early (in some of the zenpo nage throws). When you hold a weapon it's a good idea to try to keep it for as long as possible.

Yes, I see. I didn't feel too confident on some of the throws because I have a torn labrum on one shoulder, and sometimes it hurts, so I hurry the ukemi to avoid pain... my bad. Thanks again!

Of course I asked my teacher too, but I liked the idea of reading comments from outsiders :)

Eric Winters 01-01-2011 12:25 PM

Re: Jo Dori Clip
 
Hello,

The comments about the weapons etiquette are correct. I guess it depends were you train. I train with Pat Hendricks Sensei in the Iwama tradition as well and we were told to either put the weapon down away from the attacker and walk away while they retrieve it or give it back carefully. Sorry I was harsh but at Hendrick's sensei's dojo I would have been chastised for throwing a weapon down.

Best,

Eric

P.S. HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE!

Keith Larman 01-01-2011 01:25 PM

Re: Jo Dori Clip
 
Just to toss in a different perspective.

As a craftsman who handles honest to god real swords all day long the very notion of tossing a bokken down to the ground is almost incomprehensible to me. It was always drummed into me that the bokken is a representation of a real sword. Would you do that with a sword that was likely more than what most people in old Japan would make in years (ignoring so-called kazu-uchi mono blades)?

I understand that different traditions do different things. But combine the status of the Japanese sword as one of the "three sacred treasures of Japan" along with the careless and senseless damage a mount and/or blade may take by being tossed away, well, it really does just make the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. I do get tradition, and I general zip up my lips when I see something like that. But ...

Anyway... Just my perspective from the cheap seats.

P.S. Added later... Yes, I do understand we're talking about a jo here. But most weapon's etiquette is usually fairly consistent across the board. And I've seen similar tossing of the weapon during demonstrations with bokken.

Keith Larman 01-01-2011 01:31 PM

Re: Jo Dori Clip
 
Oh, and fwiw... I saw a demo once (don't know who they were) where the aikidoka bowed and took a bokken from someone else in a purely formal way one would normally take a sword. The etiquette evolved from respect for the sword as well as an understanding of how dangerous they were and how easily a mount could be damaged. The fella then proceeded to use the bokken like it was a large stick, grabbing the blade in ways that would have given him the nickname "stumpy" if it had been real. He also did some take-aways where he'd toss the bokken away once he was finished. Struck me as fantastically inconsistent -- taking the bokken initially with all the etiquette and respect normally seen with a real blade then doing all sorts of things with it totally ignoring those very things.

Again... Just my perspective. Your mileage may vary.

I.e., thinking of threads about traditions and transmission here we have someone keeping certain aspects of the tradition but discarding others apparently (to my understanding) inconsistently.

Walter Martindale 01-01-2011 05:39 PM

Re: Jo Dori Clip
 
Yep, different dojo/lineage, different ways. One dojo I've been at, you return the sword (bokken) to someone so that you indicate your trust - by handing it to them with the handle to your left (partner's right) with the edge toward you. If you trust them, you give them the blade so they could use it. If you don't trust them you don't give them the blade/bokken.

At another dojo you do a bit of zanshin move toward them so they need to back up, then put the bokken, jo, or tanto, down, blade to outside, handle away (well, not with a jo...) and away from partner so you walk away from it and he/she has to go around to get it.

At another dojo practice was such that if you put the jo down too quickly or too close to uke, it was up and at you right away because you've left the weapon too easily available. Similarly you (where I've trained) don't make uke drop the weapon without you collecting it right away, because you don't want uke's friends collecting it up....

That demo was the first I'd seen where anyone tosses the weapon back toward uke, but if that's the way the training has been, that's the way it's done...

When in Himeji, do as the Himejians do.... :)

Oh - yes - One of the sensei with whom I've trained said that my Jo-Tachi-Tanto-dori was a bit rough and nasty - but that it was OK to be a bit rough and nasty with weapon-tori, because the person had attacked with a weapon and deserved what he got. (note, yes, a bit rough, but nobody got injured)....

Cheers and Happy New Year all.
Shogatsu Omedeto Gozaimasu.
Walter

Abasan 01-02-2011 01:38 AM

Re: Jo Dori Clip
 
I think uke needs to have a little bit more zanshin... getting up before nage allowed him to is kinda dangerous.

Carsten M÷llering 01-02-2011 08:27 AM

Re: Jo Dori Clip
 
Quote:

Keith Larman wrote: (Post 271518)
... Would you do that with a sword that was likely more than what most people in old Japan would make in years (ignoring so-called kazu-uchi mono blades)?

I understand that different traditions do different things. But combine the status of the Japanese sword as one of the "three sacred treasures of Japan" along with the careless and senseless damage a mount and/or blade may take by being tossed away, ...

Well that where some of my thoughts when I experienced this etiquette for the first time.
When I asked the teacher of that dojo he told me that we talk about the sword of the enemy. It carries his spirit and should not be touched longer than necessary. And it would/should not be handled with the same respect like the own sword.

And I have to damit: I don't know how the sword of the enemy was treated in "old japan"?

Demetrio Cereijo 01-02-2011 06:19 PM

Re: Jo Dori Clip
 
Quote:

Pablo EstÚvez wrote: (Post 271503)
but I liked the idea of reading comments from outsiders :)

:D :D :D

Flintstone 01-02-2011 06:24 PM

Re: Jo Dori Clip
 
Did I see Venan in that clip ;) ?

Demetrio Cereijo 01-02-2011 06:30 PM

Re: Jo Dori Clip
 
Yes, third counting from left.

Flintstone 01-02-2011 07:05 PM

Re: Jo Dori Clip
 
Quote:

Demetrio Cereijo wrote: (Post 271608)
Yes, third counting from left.

Knew it :D :D :D

Dieter Haffner 01-03-2011 06:42 AM

Re: Jo Dori Clip
 
If I may add something new to the discussion.

There seems to be a little hick-up in the movement of tori.
When tori steps out of the line of attack and makes contact with the jo or uke, there seems to be a little pauze. Upon which tori continues the technique.
I would prefer to see the waza in one fluent motion.

But I guess it has something to do with the Himejians as well. :)

PEC 01-03-2011 07:20 AM

Re: Jo Dori Clip
 
Quote:

Dieter Haffner wrote: (Post 271639)
But I guess it has something to do with the Himejians as well. :)

Oh, maybe it's just that we're beginners :) We're not even shodan, so in a few years we may get it right :)
I recognize that when I watch the clip, we need a smoother flow in the techniques; you are completely correct, sir. Thanks.

Demetrio Cereijo 01-03-2011 07:26 AM

Re: Jo Dori Clip
 
Quote:

Pablo EstÚvez wrote: (Post 271641)
Oh, maybe it's just that we're beginners :) We're not even shodan, so in a few years we may get it right :)

You lack chi.
:D


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