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Old 12-31-2010, 10:48 AM   #1
PEC
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Jo Dori Clip

Hi, here's a small clip from a recent demo our dojo did in our town.
I'm the guy with the beard

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ct9gdglH5fs

Criticism is welcome.

For more info about our dojo: http://www.taae.es

Last edited by PEC : 12-31-2010 at 10:52 AM.
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Old 12-31-2010, 04:14 PM   #2
jbblack
 
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Re: Jo Dori Clip

Thanks for posting. Just a small point, I would not throw the jo onto the mat. Cheers, Jeff
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Old 12-31-2010, 07:51 PM   #3
Lyle Laizure
 
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Re: Jo Dori Clip

I was taught and teach that you do not give a weapon back to your attacker.

Lyle Laizure
www.hinodedojo.com
Deru kugi wa uta reru
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Old 12-31-2010, 08:36 PM   #4
mickeygelum
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Re: Jo Dori Clip

Quote:
I was taught and teach that you do not give a weapon back to your attacker
It is a demo...What are they suppose to do?
Then assuming your statement is accurate, you were never shown how to properly return the weapon to your uke or nage, depending on your role.

Quote:
Just a small point, I would not throw the jo onto the mat
I also agree that throwing the weapon down is wrong.

Train well ,

Mickey
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Old 12-31-2010, 10:18 PM   #5
niall
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Re: Jo Dori Clip

Happy new year, Pablo. I thought you both were excellent. A couple of technical points to think about.

As tori don't try to catch the weapon too soon (3rd technique and once or twice after that). It's the same principle as in taijutsu. For example in kotegaeshi against a tsuki attack you don't try to catch the wrist. If you control the whole arm your hand will slide naturally and easily on to the wrist.

As uke I felt that you were sometimes releasing your grip on the jo too early (in some of the zenpo nage throws). When you hold a weapon it's a good idea to try to keep it for as long as possible.

But very nice job and thanks for sharing it. And you can always ask your teacher for criticism.

Niall

we can make our minds so like still water, and so live for a moment with a clearer, perhaps even with a fiercer life
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Old 12-31-2010, 10:29 PM   #6
Eric Winters
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Re: Jo Dori Clip

Hello,

I have got to say that was horrible weapons etiquette. The techniques were OK but a lot of upperbody, shoulder strength and not enough hips (which to be fair I can get a little that way sometimes as well). Also when the attacker is in tsuki kamae, bring the rear hand further back to the rear hip.

Best,

Eric Winters
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Old 12-31-2010, 11:24 PM   #7
Chris Li
 
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Re: Jo Dori Clip

Quote:
Eric Winters wrote: View Post
I have got to say that was horrible weapons etiquette.
Weapons etiquette varies greatly from place to place - what's horrible in one place is common in another.

Best,

Chris

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Old 01-01-2011, 03:13 AM   #8
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Jo Dori Clip

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Weapons etiquette varies greatly from place to place - what's horrible in one place is common in another.
Yes.

Throwing the weapon onto the mat or giving it back to the attacker is not an issue. It's just a feature of a given line of tradition.

I one dojo you learn "you must not throw the weapon down and you have to give it back in a safe way ". (Which is what I learned.)
In another dojo you learn "you must not give back the attacking weapon for another attack. And you must not hold the weapon which is carrying the spirit of the attacker longer then needed". (I think this is mostly taught in the line of Saito sensei?)

When I practiced for the first time in a dojo of Takemusu aiki and handed back the sword to the attacker as I learned it, I nearly caused a little "turmoil".

Last edited by Carsten Möllering : 01-01-2011 at 03:27 AM.
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Old 01-01-2011, 05:25 AM   #9
sorokod
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Re: Jo Dori Clip

Regarding the etiquette, I have seen both approaches demonstrated by senior people within the Iwama tradition.

Maybe when doing a sequence of techniques, each ending with a strike to the head of the attacker, one does not want to break the flow and "step out of character" so to speak.

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Old 01-01-2011, 07:39 AM   #10
sorokod
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Re: Jo Dori Clip

An example with tachi dori from Paolo Corallini Shihan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nmr2wi0Vfk

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Old 01-01-2011, 09:25 AM   #11
PEC
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Re: Jo Dori Clip

Thanks for all the comments! Very much appreciated.
Eric, I agree with the "too much shoulder strength" remark. I'll keep training with that in mind.
Niall, happy new year! Yes, you're right about catching the weapon too soon. I'll try to correct that.

Regarding etiquette, we follow Iwama style under Paolo Corallini Shihan, and throwing the weapon to the mat is the way we were taught to return it for another attack.
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Old 01-01-2011, 10:24 AM   #12
PEC
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Re: Jo Dori Clip

Quote:
Niall Matthews wrote: View Post
As uke I felt that you were sometimes releasing your grip on the jo too early (in some of the zenpo nage throws). When you hold a weapon it's a good idea to try to keep it for as long as possible.
Yes, I see. I didn't feel too confident on some of the throws because I have a torn labrum on one shoulder, and sometimes it hurts, so I hurry the ukemi to avoid pain... my bad. Thanks again!

Of course I asked my teacher too, but I liked the idea of reading comments from outsiders
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Old 01-01-2011, 12:25 PM   #13
Eric Winters
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Re: Jo Dori Clip

Hello,

The comments about the weapons etiquette are correct. I guess it depends were you train. I train with Pat Hendricks Sensei in the Iwama tradition as well and we were told to either put the weapon down away from the attacker and walk away while they retrieve it or give it back carefully. Sorry I was harsh but at Hendrick's sensei's dojo I would have been chastised for throwing a weapon down.

Best,

Eric

P.S. HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE!

Last edited by Eric Winters : 01-01-2011 at 12:32 PM.
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Old 01-01-2011, 01:25 PM   #14
Keith Larman
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Re: Jo Dori Clip

Just to toss in a different perspective.

As a craftsman who handles honest to god real swords all day long the very notion of tossing a bokken down to the ground is almost incomprehensible to me. It was always drummed into me that the bokken is a representation of a real sword. Would you do that with a sword that was likely more than what most people in old Japan would make in years (ignoring so-called kazu-uchi mono blades)?

I understand that different traditions do different things. But combine the status of the Japanese sword as one of the "three sacred treasures of Japan" along with the careless and senseless damage a mount and/or blade may take by being tossed away, well, it really does just make the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. I do get tradition, and I general zip up my lips when I see something like that. But ...

Anyway... Just my perspective from the cheap seats.

P.S. Added later... Yes, I do understand we're talking about a jo here. But most weapon's etiquette is usually fairly consistent across the board. And I've seen similar tossing of the weapon during demonstrations with bokken.

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Old 01-01-2011, 01:31 PM   #15
Keith Larman
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Re: Jo Dori Clip

Oh, and fwiw... I saw a demo once (don't know who they were) where the aikidoka bowed and took a bokken from someone else in a purely formal way one would normally take a sword. The etiquette evolved from respect for the sword as well as an understanding of how dangerous they were and how easily a mount could be damaged. The fella then proceeded to use the bokken like it was a large stick, grabbing the blade in ways that would have given him the nickname "stumpy" if it had been real. He also did some take-aways where he'd toss the bokken away once he was finished. Struck me as fantastically inconsistent -- taking the bokken initially with all the etiquette and respect normally seen with a real blade then doing all sorts of things with it totally ignoring those very things.

Again... Just my perspective. Your mileage may vary.

I.e., thinking of threads about traditions and transmission here we have someone keeping certain aspects of the tradition but discarding others apparently (to my understanding) inconsistently.

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Old 01-01-2011, 05:39 PM   #16
Walter Martindale
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Re: Jo Dori Clip

Yep, different dojo/lineage, different ways. One dojo I've been at, you return the sword (bokken) to someone so that you indicate your trust - by handing it to them with the handle to your left (partner's right) with the edge toward you. If you trust them, you give them the blade so they could use it. If you don't trust them you don't give them the blade/bokken.

At another dojo you do a bit of zanshin move toward them so they need to back up, then put the bokken, jo, or tanto, down, blade to outside, handle away (well, not with a jo...) and away from partner so you walk away from it and he/she has to go around to get it.

At another dojo practice was such that if you put the jo down too quickly or too close to uke, it was up and at you right away because you've left the weapon too easily available. Similarly you (where I've trained) don't make uke drop the weapon without you collecting it right away, because you don't want uke's friends collecting it up....

That demo was the first I'd seen where anyone tosses the weapon back toward uke, but if that's the way the training has been, that's the way it's done...

When in Himeji, do as the Himejians do....

Oh - yes - One of the sensei with whom I've trained said that my Jo-Tachi-Tanto-dori was a bit rough and nasty - but that it was OK to be a bit rough and nasty with weapon-tori, because the person had attacked with a weapon and deserved what he got. (note, yes, a bit rough, but nobody got injured)....

Cheers and Happy New Year all.
Shogatsu Omedeto Gozaimasu.
Walter

Last edited by Walter Martindale : 01-01-2011 at 05:44 PM. Reason: addendum
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Old 01-02-2011, 01:38 AM   #17
Abasan
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Re: Jo Dori Clip

I think uke needs to have a little bit more zanshin... getting up before nage allowed him to is kinda dangerous.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 01-02-2011, 08:27 AM   #18
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Jo Dori Clip

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
... Would you do that with a sword that was likely more than what most people in old Japan would make in years (ignoring so-called kazu-uchi mono blades)?

I understand that different traditions do different things. But combine the status of the Japanese sword as one of the "three sacred treasures of Japan" along with the careless and senseless damage a mount and/or blade may take by being tossed away, ...
Well that where some of my thoughts when I experienced this etiquette for the first time.
When I asked the teacher of that dojo he told me that we talk about the sword of the enemy. It carries his spirit and should not be touched longer than necessary. And it would/should not be handled with the same respect like the own sword.

And I have to damit: I don't know how the sword of the enemy was treated in "old japan"?
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Old 01-02-2011, 06:19 PM   #19
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Jo Dori Clip

Quote:
Pablo Estévez wrote: View Post
but I liked the idea of reading comments from outsiders

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Old 01-02-2011, 06:24 PM   #20
Flintstone
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Re: Jo Dori Clip

Did I see Venan in that clip ?
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Old 01-02-2011, 06:30 PM   #21
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Jo Dori Clip

Yes, third counting from left.

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Old 01-02-2011, 07:05 PM   #22
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Re: Jo Dori Clip

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Yes, third counting from left.
Knew it
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Old 01-03-2011, 06:42 AM   #23
Dieter Haffner
 
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Re: Jo Dori Clip

If I may add something new to the discussion.

There seems to be a little hick-up in the movement of tori.
When tori steps out of the line of attack and makes contact with the jo or uke, there seems to be a little pauze. Upon which tori continues the technique.
I would prefer to see the waza in one fluent motion.

But I guess it has something to do with the Himejians as well.
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Old 01-03-2011, 07:20 AM   #24
PEC
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Re: Jo Dori Clip

Quote:
Dieter Haffner wrote: View Post
But I guess it has something to do with the Himejians as well.
Oh, maybe it's just that we're beginners We're not even shodan, so in a few years we may get it right
I recognize that when I watch the clip, we need a smoother flow in the techniques; you are completely correct, sir. Thanks.
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Old 01-03-2011, 07:26 AM   #25
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Re: Jo Dori Clip

Quote:
Pablo Estévez wrote: View Post
Oh, maybe it's just that we're beginners We're not even shodan, so in a few years we may get it right
You lack chi.

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