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Old 02-13-2008, 08:22 AM   #76
ChrisMoses
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Another thought. I am not sure what anyone's impression is concerning "controlling center" is after this weekend. My impression is that while apart of the aiki thing, that it is incomplete when discussing aiki. There is much more to this than simply accessing uke's center and controlling it.

I think I would also put that into the category of "good jiujitsu" or "a part of aiki", but not aiki in and of itself.
Well said. I don't think you can distill 'aiki' down to any one thing. It manifests when numerous things all come together.

Also to be clear, I'm not saying "aikido good, jujutsu bad." I think that jujutsu is the foundation for (at least the external side) of aiki, and that without a solid foundation in good old fashioned jujutsu, one's aiki will always be lacking. When we get new folks, particularly those with Aikido backgrounds, we start them with Judo (and now the Aunkai basics too). If you look at how Daito Ryu intellectualizes their curriculum, they have three overlapping types of waza: jujutsu, aikijujutsu and aiki no jutsu (at least that's how I've seen it explained from several sources). I really appreciate that distinction, even though they still make it clear that even the jujutsu portion can be done "with aiki". Sorry, kinda wandering this morning...

Chris Moses
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Old 02-13-2008, 08:35 AM   #77
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I'd like to recommend that the people at the workshop take a look at the exercises Tohei does in the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nj_7ctIWbM

They're good exercises.... and how/why to do them should be fairly clear now.

Best.

Mike
I should have included this Shioda video. Starting around 1:21 he uses fairly good and clear examples of kokyu/jin and "holes":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIowy89IXco

Best.

Mike
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Old 02-13-2008, 08:37 AM   #78
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

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Kevin Leavitt wrote:
We did not do much in the way of joint locks, but we did work on nikkyo a little. Mike reinforced to me that it does not work without positional dominance, moving or pain. He could ground out the technique and bounce me back. I could do the same, that is ground out the technique, although I could not bounce it back. Regardless, you were not going to get Nikkyo.
Kevin, I wasn't there so take this for what it's worth.

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Just to clarify a little, I was only using a limited approach to nikkyo as one of the examples to teach people to bring jin/kokyu-power where they wanted, at will.
I think Mike is being polite (and therefore oblique) here, but it's worth belaboring the point. If you just learned how to 'stop' the technique using the ground, Mike (or someone else skilled) would still be able to slap that puppy on you if he actually wanted to. I mention this as something possibly worth considering as you wander in a new direction.

What do you have to do to make locks work as controls when someone can 'block' them? Someone good enough (I experienced this definitively with Chen Xiao Wang) can block that too, but I think there's more to it than just 'step 1'. Don't take that as a criticism, just a suggestion that you may not have exhausted the mine of joint locks just yet. Keep digging, there's more in there.

-ck
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Old 02-13-2008, 09:48 AM   #79
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
The important thing is that *you* can see it, Ron. Because I'm not going to be there. The worry is about guys who use their shoulders but who are convinced they don't! And hey.... I have to monitor myself constantly, too. My general rule of thumb is: "I'm sure I'm doing something wrong... what is it this time?"

Best.

Mike
This element is absolutely crucial to ones own training. You have to be able to feel it in yourself when you switch over from one mode to another. You have to be able to feel it in your training partner too.

It helps, assuming if you train with a partner who is familiar with the sensation to have them tell you if they feel you muscling it, because sometimes you forget, concentrating on something else, etc.

This isn't addressed to anyone in particular:
On a side note, the reason why everyone in martial arts has always been told "to relax" (and many many other things) makes a lot more sense, doesn't it?
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Old 02-13-2008, 01:32 PM   #80
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I'd like to recommend that the people at the workshop take a look at the exercises Tohei does in the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nj_7ctIWbM

They're good exercises.... and how/why to do them should be fairly clear now.

Best.

Mike
Looks like the standard Aiki taiso from the Ki Society, at least the ones I remember from my training during the early days of the Ki Society. I am not sure if current Ki Society dojos here in the states still do them all, but I have noticed some of the exercises are performed in the AAA, AWA, Iwama & ASU dojos I have been at recently.

Learning the movements are easy, however, the hard part is doing them while applying Tohei's four principles of mind and body coordination - extend ki, keep one point, keep weight underside, & relax totally - which, of course, is the purpose of the exercises.

Greg
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Old 02-13-2008, 02:22 PM   #81
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
The worry is about guys who use their shoulders but who are convinced they don't!
For me this is really going to be incredibly hard. I can't tell you how many times this weekend I thought I started to make progress (mind you very minor progress) and would then catch myself using my shoulders.
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Old 02-13-2008, 03:14 PM   #82
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

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James Mockus wrote: View Post
For me this is really going to be incredibly hard. I can't tell you how many times this weekend I thought I started to make progress (mind you very minor progress) and would then catch myself using my shoulders.
Hi Jim:
Well, as someone who has gone through it all himself, let me say that your observations are crucial to correcting yourself. It's when someone uses a lot of shoulder, yet they convince themselves that they "were almost doing that jin/kokyu stuff already" that they're doomed to failure. I could feel the guys who were already doing some of it or almost already doing it... and they're not the ones who thought they were already doing some of it!

And really, I say this caution not to chastise anyone or put them in their place... I say it because I know from experience that the new guys who think they are "already doing this to some real degree" are doomed. But I don't say a lot to try and change their minds when I hear them say those potentially suicidal words because it seldom changes their minds. And besides, people have to be responsible for what they do, themselves.

Did I mention "been there, done that myself"? The best assumption is that you're doing it wrong and based on that, critically look for the flaws. I know. I wasted a lot of time *at more than one stage* because I thought I was doing things right when I wasn't.

Best.

Mike

Last edited by Mike Sigman : 02-13-2008 at 03:19 PM.
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Old 02-17-2008, 05:04 PM   #83
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Hi Ron:

BTW, I was telling some people on QiJin how impressed I was about the *speed* of the learning by the Aikidoists. It was very noticeable.

I'd like to recommend that the people at the workshop take a look at the exercises Tohei does in the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nj_7ctIWbM

They're good exercises.... and how/why to do them should be fairly clear now.

Best.

Mike
Those are the standard ki soc warmup exercises, we do them most lessons here, they're also a large proportion of the ki test movements, assessed at various levels for mind and body coordination and ki.

I'd be very curious to hear a more detailed explanation of them from you Mike, meaning, how you see them from your point of view and how you'd explain how to do them correctly. Mostly because I've been teaching them for years and am always looking for new and better ways to explain them with regards to ki skills, I'm sure you have interesting insights

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
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Old 02-17-2008, 05:26 PM   #84
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

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Mike Haft wrote: View Post
Those are the standard ki soc warmup exercises, we do them most lessons here,
But then again, most Aikidoists have seen those exercises at some time and most Ki-Society dojos have them as part of their syllabus. Most people don't understand them, do them wrong, or do them with some major gaps. I pointed them out numerous times on this forum as being fine exercises, once someone knows how. Your position has always been that you already know and do all this stuff, so I say "go for it".

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 02-18-2008, 02:49 AM   #85
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

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But then again, most Aikidoists have seen those exercises at some time and most Ki-Society dojos have them as part of their syllabus. Most people don't understand them, do them wrong, or do them with some major gaps. I pointed them out numerous times on this forum as being fine exercises, once someone knows how. Your position has always been that you already know and do all this stuff, so I say "go for it".
Yes, thats been my position. Your response to me saying that has almost always been to lump me into a category of people who say they do these things but don't actually do them. Until we happen to meet up somewhere I doubt it'll ever be resolved and I certainly have no interest in arranging a 'Workshop with Mike Haft on Ki in Aikido' and promoting it on the internet as I'd mostly see that as a self-promoting exercise, and I've no interest in that really, I'd net even be particularly interested if someone else wanted to arrange it and invite me, its just not me. However I understand you have your reasons and that they aren't bad ones either.

In this case however, I am genuinely interested to hear your thoughts on say, funakogi undo, the first exercise demonstrated by Tohei Sensei in that clip after the wrist exercises (IIRC that is). I figure you've been doing this stuff longer than me and even though you're primarily a CMA guy and so there are some differences between ki-aikido and what you do, it'd be interesting.

Best

Mike

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Old 02-18-2008, 07:52 AM   #86
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

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Mike Haft wrote: View Post
Yes, thats been my position. Your response to me saying that has almost always been to lump me into a category of people who say they do these things but don't actually do them.
Or do them at some ho-hum level. Don't forget that you've also spent a fair amount of time disparaging others, on top of giving an impression of what you can do. There's no free pass on that.
Quote:
In this case however, I am genuinely interested to hear your thoughts on say, funakogi undo, the first exercise demonstrated by Tohei Sensei in that clip after the wrist exercises (IIRC that is). I figure you've been doing this stuff longer than me and even though you're primarily a CMA guy and so there are some differences between ki-aikido and what you do, it'd be interesting.
Undoubtedly there are differences. My thought is that by telling people (and showing them) the core skills, it's fairly easy to custom-build the content of any good taiso with kokyu and ki content. Probably within the next 6 months or so, you'll see more and more Aikidoists posting who are moving ahead with these things and who can probably post with a fresher perspective than I've got. These are interesting times to watch.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 02-18-2008, 08:14 AM   #87
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Or do them at some ho-hum level. Don't forget that you've also spent a fair amount of time disparaging others, on top of giving an impression of what you can do. There's no free pass on that.
Actually, I've only ever said that I agree with much of what you have said, I've never doubted your ability. I've described what I can do at times as its been appropriate to the discussion to do so. I've never boasted or bragged about my level of skill in these things. If I've been disparaging its only ever been about the enourmous ego it takes to go and tell someone from another art that they're doing their art wrong. I'd not go to a Tai Chi or Bagua or BJJ website and behave the way you and others have. But, like I said, you have your reasons and they're not all bad ones either.

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Undoubtedly there are differences. My thought is that by telling people (and showing them) the core skills, it's fairly easy to custom-build the content of any good taiso with kokyu and ki content. Probably within the next 6 months or so, you'll see more and more Aikidoists posting who are moving ahead with these things and who can probably post with a fresher perspective than I've got. These are interesting times to watch.
So, in other words, no you're not going to give a detailed answer? Well, that's a shame really I'd have been interested to hear your thoughts.

Regards

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
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Old 02-18-2008, 08:37 AM   #88
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

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Mike Haft wrote: View Post
I'd not go to a Tai Chi or Bagua or BJJ website and behave the way you and others have.
Bear in mind that I have a respectable number of years of training in Judo, Uechi Ryu karate, Aikido, taiji, Bagua, and Xingyi. I have never visited a BJJ site. Bear in mind also that I tend to post useable how-to information (with drawing and diagrams). There's quite a difference between all of that and the inference that some outsider goes and posts troll-droppings in arts where he has no background. But you can't imagine yourself going to some website of an art that you don't know anything about and posting that people are doing it wrong. Fair enough. I can't imagine insulting anyone and then expecting them to teach me anything.... nor would I have the balls to insult anyone and then later ask their advice. A little too weird, even for bien-pensant Aikido.
Quote:
So, in other words, no you're not going to give a detailed answer? Well, that's a shame really I'd have been interested to hear your thoughts.
I've given that particular answer at times in the past. It's pointless to keep posting the same stuff.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 02-18-2008, 08:59 AM   #89
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Bear in mind that I have a respectable number of years of training in Judo, Uechi Ryu karate, Aikido, taiji, Bagua, and Xingyi.
And my 'respectable amount of years' in Tai Chi perhaps should also be considered, espcially in light of my comment that I wouldn't go to a Tai Chi forum and attempt to enlighten them.

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I can't imagine insulting anyone and then expecting them to teach me anything.... nor would I have the balls to insult anyone and then later ask their advice.
Boy did you read that one wrong.... I'm not asking for you to teach me or give me advice seeing as I have a perectly good teacher and, as you yourself have said in the past, you need to learn this stuff hands on really. So quite why you decided that I was asking you to teach me anything is a bit of a loss to me. A telling assumption methinks. Perhaps I was right about that ego thang after all j/k, that was prolly a bit harsh... I may not have been clear in my original post, but it was really just idle curiosity on my part rather than some sincere desire to learn at your feet, accompanied no doubt by various sycophantic hyperbole and a good old fashioned keppan

Catch you later.

Mike

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
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Old 02-18-2008, 09:07 AM   #90
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

Well, good luck with your search. Since your teacher already has everything, I'm not even sure why you hang around these boards.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 02-18-2008, 09:17 AM   #91
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

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Well, good luck with your search. Since your teacher already has everything, I'm not even sure why you hang around these boards.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
If he had everything I wouldn't be learning kendo and iaido with other people (especially seeing as he also teaches iaido)... no need to be snide. Perhaps you should stop taking yourself too seriously

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
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Old 02-18-2008, 10:28 AM   #92
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

I think I'll close this thread myself and save you the trouble of mucking it up even further, Haft.

Mike Sigman
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Old 02-18-2008, 10:37 AM   #93
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I think I'll close this thread myself and save you the trouble of mucking it up even further, Haft.

Mike Sigman
I came to this thread with a positive contribution and a genuine question born out of curiosity which you didn't deign to answer simply because it was me who posted it. I'd say it was an equal partnership in 'mucking it up', Sigman.

MH

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Old 02-18-2008, 12:08 PM   #94
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

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Mike Haft wrote: View Post
I came to this thread with a positive contribution and a genuine question born out of curiosity which you didn't deign to answer simply because it was me who posted it. I'd say it was an equal partnership in 'mucking it up', Sigman.

MH
As a random observer and connoisseur of egotistical Internet postings, I would say no. I can see how Mr. Sigman's posting style would ruffle feathers, but he does answer questions and people did say he provided excellent material in person. It seems he can walk the walk. I've yet to see anyone who's met one of the Internal Guys(tm) come back and say they already knew what they did, so your implicit claims are rather dubious. All you've done from the get-go is intimate that you know everything he knows. The most suspicious and illogical part is that since you've never met him, you can't even know what his set of skills actually consists of, ergo there is no logical basis for your position. So, implying that you know them is rather silly and puts the ego squarely on your end, if you're interested in keeping score.

Perhaps when there are people who have met you in addition to the Internal Guys(tm) then we'll see the names Dan, Mike S., Rob, Akuzawa, and Mike H all mentioned in the same breath.
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Old 02-18-2008, 12:20 PM   #95
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

Hi Dan,

What folks should understand is that it just doesn't matter. People will do what they will do. People can do what they can do. This ceaseless picking on the board goes nowhere. One day folks might get that...but by then there will be newbies along shortly to start it all over again.

So what counts? What folks can or cannot do, in person. How much or how little and whether or not they are open to learning.

Best,
Ron (if they are not, don't waste time, it's fairly precious)

Ron Tisdale
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Old 02-18-2008, 12:32 PM   #96
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

PS

Actually, after reading today's threads, I think I've changed my mind about posting a review.

Best,
Ron

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Old 02-18-2008, 12:32 PM   #97
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

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As a random observer and connoisseur of egotistical Internet postings, I would say no. I can see how Mr. Sigman's posting style would ruffle feathers, but he does answer questions and people did say he provided excellent material in person. It seems he can walk the walk. I've yet to see anyone who's met one of the Internal Guys(tm) come back and say they already knew what they did, so your implicit claims are rather dubious. All you've done from the get-go is intimate that you know everything he knows. The most suspicious and illogical part is that since you've never met him, you can't even know what his set of skills actually consists of, ergo there is no logical basis for your position. So, implying that you know them is rather silly and puts the ego squarely on your end, if you're interested in keeping score.
Thats just plain wrong. I've usually been known to imply that Mike is probably better at this stuff than me by virtue if nothing else that he's been at it longer, same for other guys too. I've also got no interest in promoting myself as being some great IMA master, nor have I done so. My point is however, often that it takes a large ego to tell someone from another art that they're doing their own art wrong. Its not something I'd do.

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Dan Austin wrote: View Post
Perhaps when there are people who have met you in addition to the Internal Guys(tm) then we'll see the names Dan, Mike S., Rob, Akuzawa, and Mike H all mentioned in the same breath.
Thats not a list I'd particularly want to see my name on.

Mike

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Old 02-18-2008, 12:37 PM   #98
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

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Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Hi Dan,

What folks should understand is that it just doesn't matter. People will do what they will do. People can do what they can do. This ceaseless picking on the board goes nowhere. One day folks might get that...but by then there will be newbies along shortly to start it all over again.

So what counts? What folks can or cannot do, in person. How much or how little and whether or not they are open to learning.

Best,
Ron (if they are not, don't waste time, it's fairly precious)
Hi Ron,

Oh trust me, I know. I find ego amusing. It is annoying because the sniping can make people unwilling to share. Mike Haft hasn't shared anything, so he's no loss, but Mike Sigman is obviously willing to share what he knows. I think it's going to be a typical reaction. The writing on the wall appears to be that these skills are valid and not well known, so the people who are currently teachers in Aikido have a choice of reaction. Some will get excited about it, as the people who have gone to see these gentlemen show, while others will be vested in their teacher status and not want to start from square one. Of the latter there will undoubtedly be a subset who will claim that they knew these skills all along, and who will be furiously training to try to get them before anyone discovers that they didn't know them all along. Such is the state of humanity with all that peace, love, and harmony stuff.
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Old 02-18-2008, 12:42 PM   #99
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

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Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Actually, after reading today's threads, I think I've changed my mind about posting a review.
There are some reviews and discussions on QiJin, with suggestions, training, etc., too, if you're interested in seeing more complete, less tangential discussion, Ron.

Best.

Mike
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Old 02-18-2008, 12:42 PM   #100
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Re: Workshop with Mike Sigman on Ki in Aikido

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Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
PS

Actually, after reading today's threads, I think I've changed my mind about posting a review.

Best,
Ron
See? I'm sure many people would have loved to read it, especially people like Mike H. who could use some drills and buzzwords to add to his list. That sort of thing can't be stopped, so you really have to consider what matters and is of the greatest benefit.
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