Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Techniques

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-13-2006, 02:26 PM   #1
Sreyan
Dojo: New England Aikikai
Location: Storrs Connecticut
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 9
United_States
Offline
Nikyo or Ikkyo or something Else?

In Wikipedia's aikido page there is an image of an aikidoka wearing a hakama applying a technique to another.

The technique is labeled as ``nikyo omote''.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Nikyo_omote.jpeg

I've seen very little aikido, but being a jujutska, nikyo looked to be executed like a kote mawashi basically making the radius and ulna touch like coiling a helix tighter.

In the picture, It looks like pressure is being applied on the shoulder side of the elbow, and the forearm technique (looks like kote hineri) is used more to expose the elbow.

Is it Nikyo or Ikkyo or something else?

Thanks for the answer in advance,
Sreyan
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2006, 02:44 PM   #2
Karen Wolek
Dojo: Kingston Aikido
Location: New York
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 322
United_States
Offline
Re: Nikyo or Ikkyo or something Else?

Looks like nikyo omote.

Nikyo ura is different; you do the nikyo with uke's wrist on your shoulder.

We also do an ikkyo that looks like that picture, too, sometimes.

Karen
"Try not. Do...or do not. There is no try." - Master Yoda
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2006, 03:06 PM   #3
Sreyan
Dojo: New England Aikikai
Location: Storrs Connecticut
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 9
United_States
Offline
Re: Nikyo or Ikkyo or something Else?

Hmm. I've had former aikidoka do what they refered to as ``Ikkyo'' to me; it always involves bending the elbow in a way it doesnt go. Those same folks apply ``nikkyo ura'' if i grabe the lapel of their gi. If they do a cross handed grab, they also refer to it as nikkyo.

So my question is, is Ikkyo a subset of Nikyo? or is control of the elbow the aim of Nikyo too? Or am i missing the point completely?
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2006, 03:39 PM   #4
Mark Uttech
Dojo: Yoshin-ji Aikido of Marshall
Location: Wisconsin
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,217
Offline
Re: Nikyo or Ikkyo or something Else?

neither ikkyo or nikkyo is just an arm or elbow. One goes to the whole body through the arm. It is an interesting study of oneness. For that matter, so are sankyo and yonkyo.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2006, 04:24 PM   #5
Russell Robinson
Dojo: Steiner Ranch Aikido, Austin, TX
Location: Austin, TX
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7
United_States
Offline
Re: Nikyo or Ikkyo or something Else?

In the dojo I train, Ikkyo and Nikyo are treated as separate techniques entirely, although they share certain principles just like all Aikido techniques. The photo from wikipedia is what I would call ‘ikkyo irimi' (ikkyo followed by a forward movement in the direction the shoulder is pointed).

Hope this helps ;-)

Thanks,
Russ
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2006, 04:50 PM   #6
aikidoc
Dojo: Aikido of Midland
Location: Midland Texas
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,652
United_States
Offline
Re: Nikyo or Ikkyo or something Else?

The initial take down in aikikai dojos can be very similar looking between ikkyo omote and nikyo omote depending on the attack (especially a grab). The pin will distinquish the two. kote mawashi is a name used for a wrist exercise we use (undo) and is the position used for the wrist in nikyo. My instructor's nikyo omote is significantly different.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2006, 05:26 PM   #7
Edwin Neal
Dojo: Ronin
Location: Henderson, North Carolina
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 597
United_States
Offline
Re: Nikyo or Ikkyo or something Else?

it is hard to tell from a picture... my rule of thumb is if it feels like Nikkyo you will know it... nikkyo is Painful... in some instances it feels like you've grabbed a live wire... ikkyo by comparison I don't associate with any pain except hitting the ground of course...

Edwin Neal


  Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2006, 03:33 AM   #8
Ilja Leonard Pfeijffer
Dojo: Shi Zen Ryu
Location: Leiden
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 11
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Nikyo or Ikkyo or something Else?

Quote:
John Riggs wrote:
The initial take down in aikikai dojos can be very similar looking between ikkyo omote and nikyo omote depending on the attack (especially a grab). The pin will distinquish the two.
Compare Best Aikido pp. 110-111 (ikkyo omote executed from katate dori, with kote mawashi, but without the nikkyo lock, which makes it ikkyo) and pp. 130-131 (nikkyo omote executed from the same attack, now with the lock, which makes it nikkyo).
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2006, 07:15 PM   #9
andylucas
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 22
United_States
Offline
Re: Nikyo or Ikkyo or something Else?

looks like nikkyo after applying the technic then taking it to the floor for the pin.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2006, 03:08 AM   #10
batemanb
 
batemanb's Avatar
Dojo: Seibukan Aikido UK
Location: body in UK, heart still in Japan
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 1,029
Offline
Re: Nikyo or Ikkyo or something Else?

According to "Best Aikido" by Ueshiba Kisshomaru, Nikkyo and Sankyo et al are just variations of Ikkyo. That picture looks just like movement in the kihon Nikkyo omote that I was taught when I lived in Japan, although I think it's very much the end pin that really differentiates Ikkyo and Nikkyo. That pic could still end up with an ikkyo pin without using the wrist, equally at that frame in the movement it could be Gokkyo. Here in the west I've seen many people use the twist on the wrist there and call it Ikkyo, their Nikkyo is then done "differently". What they effectively do is the ura version of Nikkyo whereby they enter into an omote movement but they manouvre the arm into the "S" shape and bring the wrist into the shoulder to apply the pin.

http://www.aikidoaus.com.au/dojo/docs/sudnuw2.htm

There are numerous variations on the kihon versions of both omote and ura, so it's highly likely that different people will be taught "different" kihon waza.

rgds
Bryan

A difficult problem is easily solved by asking yourself the question, "Just how would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2006, 09:25 AM   #11
SBK_Doug
Dojo: Shin Budo Kai - Atlanta
Location: Atlanta, GA
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 11
United_States
Offline
Re: Nikyo or Ikkyo or something Else?

Looks more like Ikkyo to me....however I wonder at what part of the overall technique was the photo taken.
Ikkyo Irimi would be my answer if nage walked uke forward from this point and applied the Ikkyo pin.
Nikyo Irimi would be my answer if uke was permitted to get back up and nage repositioned the wrist/elbow/shoulder to apply nikyo and take uke back to the floor.
Aikido can be tricky. You may want to look at the overall technique instead of focussing on this specific photo.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2006, 06:54 PM   #12
odudog
Dojo: Dale City Aikikai
Location: VA
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 376
Offline
Re: Nikyo or Ikkyo or something Else?

The picture is Nikkyo. I have studied two styles of Aikido and both of them say that that is Nikkyo. From what I was taught, the difference between Ikkyo and Nikkyo is the bending of the wrist in the manner that is shown. So if the nage's right hand is holding uke's wrist instead, then it's Ikkyo.

Also, from what I have been taught and seen in various other forms of Aikido is that nage doesn't have to walk uke forward from that position in the photo. I was taught that we do that to be nice to uke, but if you don't want to be nice, then the nage will simply step sideways to the right and pull uke in that direction. Notice that nage is holding uke's right arm, so uke can't stop him in any way from going to the right sideways. I did this recently in class and my uke asked to me not do it so hard for her shoulder hurt.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2006, 07:51 PM   #13
Edwin Neal
Dojo: Ronin
Location: Henderson, North Carolina
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 597
United_States
Offline
Re: Nikyo or Ikkyo or something Else?

the hand position can vary... it is hard to be more than general analysing photo... once again the simple way... NIKKYO HURTS in the wrist... ikkyo is more of a takedown, not painful wrist lock... we use the "nikkyo" hand grip with ikkyo very often...

Edwin Neal


  Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2006, 02:17 AM   #14
Johan Nielsen
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 20
Faroe Islands
Offline
Re: Nikyo or Ikkyo or something Else?

Well it's certainly possible to do ikkyu holding the wrist like that. That's not decisive, nor the existance of pain during the technique. What is decisive though (in this case) is the angle between the wrist and the elbow. (hard to explain without pic's) If the palm is in a straight line with the arm and elbow, it is ikkyu. If the hand is twisted, and the palm is not in a straight angle palm-arm-elbow and the twist is as a "nikyu" twist, it is nikyu.(Hope you got it) You see, ikkyu and nikyu are just "nicknames" of the actual techniques. Look at their real japanese name and it will provide better understanding of the essence of the technique. You could do ikkyu many ways and it sometimes might seem stange. Until you see what ikkyu and all the other techniques are really about. Handgrips, pain and intention are just smokescreens blocking your minds from realising what really happens technically and what you are doing. At this picture we could just as well be looking at a gokyu, if his motion is not pressing down the arm enough, but straightening the arm instead. Hard to tell by the picture. But my money is on nikyu. It might though not be the optimal kind of "nikyu omote", as it clearly doesn't illustrate the nikyu satisfactory. Otherwise it wouldn't have raised such a question.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2006, 03:23 AM   #15
Alec Corper
 
Alec Corper's Avatar
Dojo: Itten Suginami Dojo, Nunspeet
Location: Wapenveld
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 263
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Nikyo or Ikkyo or something Else?

Impossible to tell from this stage of the technique, Interesting fingers on the left hand though, hmm?

If your temper rises withdraw your hand, if your hand rises withdraw your temper.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2006, 03:30 AM   #16
Doug Wyatt
Dojo: Enbukan
Location: Mtn View, CA
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2
United_States
Offline
Re: Nikyo or Ikkyo or something Else?

Not sure what this is. Shite's left hand isn't at the elbow joint, so probably not an Ikkajo technique. Shite's right hand is about 90 degrees under-rotated for Nikajo (Uke's fingers should be pointing directly away from Shite), but the photo might be depicting the process of turning Uke over, so maybe Shite isn't finished cranking. Both of Uke's knees are off the ground, which makes guessing the technique problematic.

Ikkajo turns Uke away from you by pressure at a bent elbow joint. Nikajo by cranking a bent wrist joint in the direction of the 'pinkie' finger. If an Ikkajo technique begins with Shite's right hand grabbing Uke's right hand Gyakute-tori, you can use a supplementary Nikajo wrist crank to help turn Uke over. Every little bit helps.

My guess is that this is a photo of a Nikajo Ni technique, Shite is about to body shift to his right, guiding Uke in a CW (from above) spiral to the floor. And Uke took a step forward with his left foot for some reason, maybe illustrating some 2nd Control escape or #2 technique (tenkan) principle?
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2006, 12:42 PM   #17
Edwin Neal
Dojo: Ronin
Location: Henderson, North Carolina
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 597
United_States
Offline
Re: Nikyo or Ikkyo or something Else?

i'm sorry johan but i've never had a nikkyo that didn't hurt... to me that is a defining factor... not a smokescreen... truly there are endless variation to ikkyo and nikkyo, but nikkyo always hurts...

Edwin Neal


  Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2006, 02:40 PM   #18
odudog
Dojo: Dale City Aikikai
Location: VA
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 376
Offline
Re: Nikyo or Ikkyo or something Else?

Not everyone likes to put their left hand on the elbow joint. I have an instructor that likes to place his left hand on uke's tricep and roll the tricept over. The tricept rolling over also effects the shoulder joint. I have another instructor that likes to hold uke's wrist, bokken, ect... without using his forefinger. He states that the forefinger is showing you which direction your ki is flowing. It also helps to control uke's wrist. He has held my wrist many times in this manner and asked me to move my hand around to try to break his grip. It's impossible to do. I can't describe it well in print, but, if you see it done on you it is sure to get your brain thinking about the application possibilities.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2006, 03:13 AM   #19
Zeb Leonard
Dojo: Grampians Aikido
Location: Ballarat
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 14
Australia
Offline
Re: Nikyo or Ikkyo or something Else?

that picture is an espresso machine
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2006, 03:19 AM   #20
Edwin Neal
Dojo: Ronin
Location: Henderson, North Carolina
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 597
United_States
Offline
Re: Nikyo or Ikkyo or something Else?

i'll take a double please...

Edwin Neal


  Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2006, 06:25 AM   #21
Johan Nielsen
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 20
Faroe Islands
Offline
Re: Nikyo or Ikkyo or something Else?

Quote:
Edwin Neal wrote:
i'm sorry johan but i've never had a nikkyo that didn't hurt... to me that is a defining factor... not a smokescreen... truly there are endless variation to ikkyo and nikkyo, but nikkyo always hurts...
Well, nikyu hurts most of the times - more or less. What I ment was that it can be a nikyu even when there is no pain. Perhaps a person isn't sensitive for pain or there is such good unbalancing of the opponant that you don't have to make the technique hurt for it to work. If you base your techniques on pain you won't be able to do your stuff when you face an opponant that doesn't react to pain. But pain of course helps in doing some techniques.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido DVDs and Video Downloads - by George Ledyard Sensei & other great teachers from AikidoDVDS.Com



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Article: Ikkyo, Nikyo, and Sankyo as Geometric Principles by Ross Robertson AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 3 06-21-2006 01:02 PM
Ikkyo from the guard Kevin Leavitt "Off-The-Mat" 15 06-05-2006 01:58 PM
Survey of Ikkyo variants thomasgroendal Techniques 14 06-21-2002 08:27 AM
Meannig of Ikkyo andrea anzalone Techniques 10 09-29-2001 04:06 AM
Help needed: school project on ikkyo jxa127 General 7 10-24-2000 08:58 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:30 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate