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-   -   Nikyo or Ikkyo or something Else? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9600)

Sreyan 01-13-2006 03:26 PM

Nikyo or Ikkyo or something Else?
 
In Wikipedia's aikido page there is an image of an aikidoka wearing a hakama applying a technique to another.

The technique is labeled as ``nikyo omote''.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Nikyo_omote.jpeg

I've seen very little aikido, but being a jujutska, nikyo looked to be executed like a kote mawashi basically making the radius and ulna touch like coiling a helix tighter.

In the picture, It looks like pressure is being applied on the shoulder side of the elbow, and the forearm technique (looks like kote hineri) is used more to expose the elbow.

Is it Nikyo or Ikkyo or something else?

Thanks for the answer in advance,
Sreyan

Karen Wolek 01-13-2006 03:44 PM

Re: Nikyo or Ikkyo or something Else?
 
Looks like nikyo omote. :)

Nikyo ura is different; you do the nikyo with uke's wrist on your shoulder.

We also do an ikkyo that looks like that picture, too, sometimes.

Sreyan 01-13-2006 04:06 PM

Re: Nikyo or Ikkyo or something Else?
 
Hmm. I've had former aikidoka do what they refered to as ``Ikkyo'' to me; it always involves bending the elbow in a way it doesnt go. Those same folks apply ``nikkyo ura'' if i grabe the lapel of their gi. If they do a cross handed grab, they also refer to it as nikkyo.

So my question is, is Ikkyo a subset of Nikyo? or is control of the elbow the aim of Nikyo too? Or am i missing the point completely?

Mark Uttech 01-13-2006 04:39 PM

Re: Nikyo or Ikkyo or something Else?
 
neither ikkyo or nikkyo is just an arm or elbow. One goes to the whole body through the arm. It is an interesting study of oneness. For that matter, so are sankyo and yonkyo.

Russell Robinson 01-13-2006 05:24 PM

Re: Nikyo or Ikkyo or something Else?
 
In the dojo I train, Ikkyo and Nikyo are treated as separate techniques entirely, although they share certain principles just like all Aikido techniques. The photo from wikipedia is what I would call ‘ikkyo irimi' (ikkyo followed by a forward movement in the direction the shoulder is pointed).

Hope this helps ;-)

Thanks,
Russ

aikidoc 01-13-2006 05:50 PM

Re: Nikyo or Ikkyo or something Else?
 
The initial take down in aikikai dojos can be very similar looking between ikkyo omote and nikyo omote depending on the attack (especially a grab). The pin will distinquish the two. kote mawashi is a name used for a wrist exercise we use (undo) and is the position used for the wrist in nikyo. My instructor's nikyo omote is significantly different.

Edwin Neal 01-13-2006 06:26 PM

Re: Nikyo or Ikkyo or something Else?
 
it is hard to tell from a picture... my rule of thumb is if it feels like Nikkyo you will know it... nikkyo is Painful... in some instances it feels like you've grabbed a live wire... ikkyo by comparison I don't associate with any pain except hitting the ground of course...

Ilja Leonard Pfeijffer 01-14-2006 04:33 AM

Re: Nikyo or Ikkyo or something Else?
 
Quote:

John Riggs wrote:
The initial take down in aikikai dojos can be very similar looking between ikkyo omote and nikyo omote depending on the attack (especially a grab). The pin will distinquish the two.

Compare Best Aikido pp. 110-111 (ikkyo omote executed from katate dori, with kote mawashi, but without the nikkyo lock, which makes it ikkyo) and pp. 130-131 (nikkyo omote executed from the same attack, now with the lock, which makes it nikkyo).

andylucas 01-14-2006 08:15 PM

Re: Nikyo or Ikkyo or something Else?
 
looks like nikkyo after applying the technic then taking it to the floor for the pin.

batemanb 01-15-2006 04:08 AM

Re: Nikyo or Ikkyo or something Else?
 
According to "Best Aikido" by Ueshiba Kisshomaru, Nikkyo and Sankyo et al are just variations of Ikkyo. That picture looks just like movement in the kihon Nikkyo omote that I was taught when I lived in Japan, although I think it's very much the end pin that really differentiates Ikkyo and Nikkyo. That pic could still end up with an ikkyo pin without using the wrist, equally at that frame in the movement it could be Gokkyo. Here in the west I've seen many people use the twist on the wrist there and call it Ikkyo, their Nikkyo is then done "differently". What they effectively do is the ura version of Nikkyo whereby they enter into an omote movement but they manouvre the arm into the "S" shape and bring the wrist into the shoulder to apply the pin.

http://www.aikidoaus.com.au/dojo/docs/sudnuw2.htm

There are numerous variations on the kihon versions of both omote and ura, so it's highly likely that different people will be taught "different" kihon waza.

rgds
Bryan

SBK_Doug 01-26-2006 10:25 AM

Re: Nikyo or Ikkyo or something Else?
 
Looks more like Ikkyo to me....however I wonder at what part of the overall technique was the photo taken.
Ikkyo Irimi would be my answer if nage walked uke forward from this point and applied the Ikkyo pin.
Nikyo Irimi would be my answer if uke was permitted to get back up and nage repositioned the wrist/elbow/shoulder to apply nikyo and take uke back to the floor.
Aikido can be tricky. You may want to look at the overall technique instead of focussing on this specific photo.
:ai: :ki: :do:

odudog 01-26-2006 07:54 PM

Re: Nikyo or Ikkyo or something Else?
 
The picture is Nikkyo. I have studied two styles of Aikido and both of them say that that is Nikkyo. From what I was taught, the difference between Ikkyo and Nikkyo is the bending of the wrist in the manner that is shown. So if the nage's right hand is holding uke's wrist instead, then it's Ikkyo.

Also, from what I have been taught and seen in various other forms of Aikido is that nage doesn't have to walk uke forward from that position in the photo. I was taught that we do that to be nice to uke, but if you don't want to be nice, then the nage will simply step sideways to the right and pull uke in that direction. Notice that nage is holding uke's right arm, so uke can't stop him in any way from going to the right sideways. I did this recently in class and my uke asked to me not do it so hard for her shoulder hurt.

Edwin Neal 01-26-2006 08:51 PM

Re: Nikyo or Ikkyo or something Else?
 
the hand position can vary... it is hard to be more than general analysing photo... once again the simple way... NIKKYO HURTS in the wrist... ikkyo is more of a takedown, not painful wrist lock... we use the "nikkyo" hand grip with ikkyo very often...

Johan Nielsen 01-27-2006 03:17 AM

Re: Nikyo or Ikkyo or something Else?
 
Well it's certainly possible to do ikkyu holding the wrist like that. That's not decisive, nor the existance of pain during the technique. What is decisive though (in this case) is the angle between the wrist and the elbow. (hard to explain without pic's) If the palm is in a straight line with the arm and elbow, it is ikkyu. If the hand is twisted, and the palm is not in a straight angle palm-arm-elbow and the twist is as a "nikyu" twist, it is nikyu.(Hope you got it) You see, ikkyu and nikyu are just "nicknames" of the actual techniques. Look at their real japanese name and it will provide better understanding of the essence of the technique. You could do ikkyu many ways and it sometimes might seem stange. Until you see what ikkyu and all the other techniques are really about. Handgrips, pain and intention are just smokescreens blocking your minds from realising what really happens technically and what you are doing. At this picture we could just as well be looking at a gokyu, if his motion is not pressing down the arm enough, but straightening the arm instead. Hard to tell by the picture. But my money is on nikyu. It might though not be the optimal kind of "nikyu omote", as it clearly doesn't illustrate the nikyu satisfactory. Otherwise it wouldn't have raised such a question.

Alec Corper 01-27-2006 04:23 AM

Re: Nikyo or Ikkyo or something Else?
 
Impossible to tell from this stage of the technique, Interesting fingers on the left hand though, hmm?

Doug Wyatt 01-27-2006 04:30 AM

Re: Nikyo or Ikkyo or something Else?
 
Not sure what this is. Shite's left hand isn't at the elbow joint, so probably not an Ikkajo technique. Shite's right hand is about 90 degrees under-rotated for Nikajo (Uke's fingers should be pointing directly away from Shite), but the photo might be depicting the process of turning Uke over, so maybe Shite isn't finished cranking. Both of Uke's knees are off the ground, which makes guessing the technique problematic.

Ikkajo turns Uke away from you by pressure at a bent elbow joint. Nikajo by cranking a bent wrist joint in the direction of the 'pinkie' finger. If an Ikkajo technique begins with Shite's right hand grabbing Uke's right hand Gyakute-tori, you can use a supplementary Nikajo wrist crank to help turn Uke over. Every little bit helps.

My guess is that this is a photo of a Nikajo Ni technique, Shite is about to body shift to his right, guiding Uke in a CW (from above) spiral to the floor. And Uke took a step forward with his left foot for some reason, maybe illustrating some 2nd Control escape or #2 technique (tenkan) principle?

Edwin Neal 01-28-2006 01:42 PM

Re: Nikyo or Ikkyo or something Else?
 
i'm sorry johan but i've never had a nikkyo that didn't hurt... to me that is a defining factor... not a smokescreen... truly there are endless variation to ikkyo and nikkyo, but nikkyo always hurts...

odudog 01-28-2006 03:40 PM

Re: Nikyo or Ikkyo or something Else?
 
Not everyone likes to put their left hand on the elbow joint. I have an instructor that likes to place his left hand on uke's tricep and roll the tricept over. The tricept rolling over also effects the shoulder joint. I have another instructor that likes to hold uke's wrist, bokken, ect... without using his forefinger. He states that the forefinger is showing you which direction your ki is flowing. It also helps to control uke's wrist. He has held my wrist many times in this manner and asked me to move my hand around to try to break his grip. It's impossible to do. I can't describe it well in print, but, if you see it done on you it is sure to get your brain thinking about the application possibilities.

Zeb Leonard 01-29-2006 04:13 AM

Re: Nikyo or Ikkyo or something Else?
 
that picture is an espresso machine

Edwin Neal 01-29-2006 04:19 AM

Re: Nikyo or Ikkyo or something Else?
 
i'll take a double please...

Johan Nielsen 01-30-2006 07:25 AM

Re: Nikyo or Ikkyo or something Else?
 
Quote:

Edwin Neal wrote:
i'm sorry johan but i've never had a nikkyo that didn't hurt... to me that is a defining factor... not a smokescreen... truly there are endless variation to ikkyo and nikkyo, but nikkyo always hurts...

Well, nikyu hurts most of the times - more or less. What I ment was that it can be a nikyu even when there is no pain. Perhaps a person isn't sensitive for pain or there is such good unbalancing of the opponant that you don't have to make the technique hurt for it to work. If you base your techniques on pain you won't be able to do your stuff when you face an opponant that doesn't react to pain. But pain of course helps in doing some techniques.


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