Attacked by Uke

Recently we were doing kokyu-ho (suwari-waza), and my uke was a yudansha. I'm only 4th kyu. When I would grab for his wrists, he would start executing the move. I thought, "That's fine. He's anticipating my 'attack.' Maybe that's a yudansha thing to do."

I couldn't get a good grip on his wrists because he wouldn't let me. While I was trying, he did some sort of pseudo-judo move and threw me on my back! Then, when he was doing ukemi for me, he was pushing me backward with all his strength in what appeared to be a macho wrestling technique.

I didn't want to be bullied around, even if he was a yudansha, and so I strong-armed him onto his back. I was embarrassed because I'm generally reserved and courteous on the mat. I feel like I was forced into reacting that way, though.

Looking back on it, maybe I should have just stopped and said, "No. You're not allowing me to practice this move properly. It isn't helping my training in kokyu-ho."

I've NEVER seen an aikidoka (not to mention a yudansha) deviate from being a good, humble uke. I did nothing offensive to him, nor did I act in an aggressive manner to rile him up.

This really bothers me because I don't want to engage in macho bull**** behavior with people just because they are having a bad day or whatever.

Any advice on this situation? It would be most helpful. Thank you.

Was this just a one-time training opportunity, or does he do this all the time?

Maybe he likes you and just can't express his true feelings verbally?

Try asking him what you ought to be doing ...

And, trust me, I've seen plenty of aikido yudansha playing power games, posturing and engaging in all sorts of macho BS. AIkido ...

It your responsibility to control what it turns into. Never mind the rank, unless he's the teacher, he's just another student. Yudansha, schmudansha.

cg

This happened to me when I was about 2 years into Aikido - a shodan kicked me in the back when I was on the ground because he was in a temper.

It isn't pleasant at all, I was absolutely furious as I recall. (ooh that rhymes).

I had to change clubs as it was never fixed to my satisfaction. ie the aggressive behaviour showed no signs of stopping from this person with any lower grades and the sensei wasn't interested.

Good luck.

Dont take any crap .We have a guy thats like that at our dojo and he just started taking aikido a few months ago. Hes extremely disrespectful and cocky. Hes always trying to correct me and the other higher ranks, and he does every technique w/ intensity and brutality. And he better bet that if he pulls any crap w/me , hes gonna get the same back. Aikido is a peaceful art , but with people like this guy and the yudansha u speak of , not so much.

I couldn't get a good grip on his wrists because he wouldn't let me. While I was trying, he did some sort of pseudo-judo move and threw me on my back! Then, when he was doing ukemi for me, he was pushing me backward with all his strength in what appeared to be a macho wrestling technique.

Others have posted several possibilities with which I agree; I'll just add that some people are simply poor teachers -- this person may have believed they were helping you by trying to press your training to a harder level. I've worked with many senior people who, even when they're simply training in a class, went a long way towards helping me learn just by how they practiced with me. And I've met others who *want* to help but ended up just coming across like macho-BS aikido.

Anyway, only you (or your sensei, or others in your actual dojo) can determine if this person is the macho-BS-variety, or misguided (albeit well-intentioned).

I didn't want to be bullied around, even if he was a yudansha, and so I strong-armed him onto his back. I was embarrassed because I'm generally reserved and courteous on the mat. I feel like I was forced into reacting that way, though.

Question: What was his reaction to your strong-arm? Did he get angry/upset? Did he seem not to react at all? Did he seem like he was enjoying himself?

Some people just like to practice differently than others, so some like to play a little rougher. It might not be a domination thing, it might be that he wanted to see if you'd play the way he wanted to. I also agree with Craig that it might have been an attempt to teach you something.

Or he might be a jerk. Only you can know. But try to see where he was coming from when he did it.

Sarah

If someone is pushing me backwards with all his might, well, clearly he knows where he is going. My kokyudosa would take the form of maintaining extension, exhaling, and pivoting back out of the way so he can land on his face :-)

I know it's really hard to get past that initial gut reaction that they are fighting with you -- I'm going thorugh that A LOT right now. (And I'm a 1st kyu with 6 years under my belt). It can be down right frustrating working with people like that. Usually when I'm working with someone senior than me if I find they are resisting a lot, I initially want to think that they want to show I can't do the technique to them, but to check my own insecurities and I ask what they are trying to show me. Usually, they are trying to make a point and it's a good point. It's rare that they are actually trying to prove thier dominance over me, although those kind of jerks do exist. (I haven't found a constructive way of dealing with these kinds yet.) Some people come from schools that are less talky than others and "teach through their ukemi". However, that can be really frustrating if you don't understand what they are trying to teach your "through their ukemi". Usually it's best just to ask, "what are you trying to show me."

ahh the old bullying during kokyu ho routine.

One thing I find interesting about this simple exercise is the emotions it can sometimes bring out in people. Amazing when you strip away all the other stuff and practice such a simple exercise...you can learn alot about yourself and your partner. Both good and bad.

It is easy to give advice...and hard to follow your own advice...as is my issue with myself!

Try not and have your feelings hurt so bad. it is his issue and not yours. Try and be humble and train around it if you can. Embrace the conflict that the situation presents and try and figure out how to find the "soft point" in his flaws. It may take you a day...it may take you a year. (gotta love that mushy, aiki fruity stuff!)

Patience and persistences are wonderful things to learn and to test!

Dear Shocked,
I have had a few situations like this arise during my practice also. I have also tried a few different solutions and I can tell you that retaliation is not the one you want to use. I have been severely chewed on once, specifically, for forcing a technique I had clearly achieved tskuri for and was repeatedly sandbagged so I used my superior position to slam the guy. That was a bad day. I have also asked my partner to wait a second while I ask sensei for some help. This was a good day! My advice would be next time it happens ask your instructor for help.

I would also like to add that avoiding this guy is not the thing to do. In fact you should seek him out. Many times, you will have the most improvement working with those "undesirables" because they push your buttons and you have to deal with it. Force yourself to face those things.

Jason

I first learned to fish from a small boat moving slowly up and down the river, it was called trolling.

I first learned to fish from a small boat moving slowly up and down the river, it was called trolling.

Jon, I didn't think the original post came off as trolling. I think it came off as venting and asking for some feedback. *shrug* Maybe I just read it differently.

Sarah

What do people do when they face people they don't like say at work? Is the place of employment then assumed to be full of bullies and egomaniacs running loose? Is it then assumed it the company on the whole is a horrible place? Do then riot?

If people haven't learn to deal to some degree with themselves and others they come into conflict with in society by the time they get into Aikido, Aikido isn't going to help them.

Yes, it seems for some that Aikido bullies and egomaniacs lurk everywhere and to infiltrate overwhelmingly in high numbers ever dojo to chase off the pure, chaste, and innocent. Where oh... where is that promised utopia called Aikido...all there is, bullies, egomaniacs, and sexual predators? If you missed the sarcasm let me assure you it is there.

I surprised that there haven't been more comments suggesting Shocked has the attitude and is misinterpreting the whole situation. Maybe, Shock pushes the buttons of his seniors and everyone else in the dojo and they are just fed up with the whole thing. Why must we assume those who cry wolf have no agenda.

No where in life where people gather there isn't some type or form of rank and file, superior or dominance, competition or conflict. Fortunately, for Aikido and by its nature if it taught and followed earnestly and correctly harmony is found. But as all things it takes work and doesn't happen over night. And realistically sometimes that harmony may simply be not fighting with each other, respecting each others space, or just avoiding all contact. I am always reminded that we are humans, doing a thing called Aikido, and what is the purpose for doing it.

This is for Shocked and those alike, here lays your answer, you live with it and not try to control your environment to make it the way you think it should be or in the way it makes you comfortable. Aikido training in the dojo is only a fraction of your life. We sleep more, eat more, work more, stand in line more, then we train.

Its a dead thread. Someday someone will post with a truely sincere and honest issue that will warrent people's experience and advice. I am not holding my breath.

Someday someone will post with a truely sincere and honest issue that will warrent people's experience and advice. I am not holding my breath.

That is anonymously post. There are many fine examples of good and honest concerns that don't use anonymity.

Any advice on this situation? It would be most helpful. Thank you.

Have you been hurt by this yudansha? No? So what exactly is your problem? Your ego got hurt? .............hmhmhmh,,,,,,

You are practicing Budo, not some kind of abstract aerobic exercises. Aikido practice is about conflict, how to deal with. Uke is attacking you to create artificially a conflict, without that one can't learn aikido. It is absolutely normal behavior. He did his job perfectly. In fact you must be thankful and bow him very deep to show your respect. Buying a good beer will be good idea.

Also, this is excellent opportunity to practice REAL kokyu ho. When uke is not tanking, tori must use his body and mind in right way otherwise will collapse as you did. It is extremely important to use a structure and mechanic of body in most efficient way, particularly paying attention how to harmonize skeleton and flexible muscles with breathing.

When uke is pushing with all his will and power, tori can work out not only as Janet nicely wrote, how to redirect such difficult attack, but what is more important, how to create power under extreme pressure. I'll give you some nice tips: think about your big toe as a source of power. If your body is flexible, all joins will transmit this power to the hips and to your hands. You will not be worried anymore about "wild" attack LOL.

Its a dead thread. Someday someone will post with a truely sincere and honest issue that will warrent people's experience and advice. I am not holding my breath.

No, but you are using a lot of it to protest about the person who posted and the way the rest of us have chosen to respond. To quote Scoop Nisker, "if you don't like the news, go out and make some of your own."

Janet Rosen wrote: If someone is pushing me backwards with all his might, well, clearly he knows where he is going. My kokyudosa would take the form of maintaining extension, exhaling, and pivoting back out of the way so he can land on his face :-)

Could I also use this as uke, if tori is pushing me straight over backwards? This seems to happen to me a lot as I am flexible in the knees, hips and back, so I can lean backwards in seiza until my back is on the floor. Sometimes tori's direction just pushes me over that way, unless I stop extending in my attack and allow my arms to collapse (which I have been told not to do)!

Ruth (trying to get this thread back ON-topic)

Janet Rosen wrote: No, but you are using a lot of it to protest about the person who posted and the way the rest of us have chosen to respond. To quote Scoop Nisker, "if you don't like the news, go out and make some of your own."

If you have not noticed, he has already done numerously in this Anonymous section. Behind the anonymity, he has the cheeks to accuse others of trolling. What a joke?

Happy training

David Y

I actually consider that "jon" is the one trolling. If "jon" doesn't like the anonymous board or the purpose behind it, I believe he should take that issue up with Jun and leave the rest of us alone and stop hijacking threads when people have issues to discuss. Jun can trace him if he really wanted to with his IP address.

In kokyo ho, why not just direct uke force into the ground and wait? If he's really pushing hard, he'll get tired way before you do, at which point you can perform the technique as you wish.

Even when uke isn't being an a**hole, it is sometimes fun to play the psychological game of trying to catch each other out. It is just like looking for your opening in any other technique.

Anne Marie Giri wrote: I actually consider that "jon" is the one trolling. If "jon" doesn't like the anonymous board or the purpose behind it, I believe he should take that issue up with Jun and leave the rest of us alone and stop hijacking threads when people have issues to discuss. Jun can trace him if he really wanted to with his IP address.

I am sorry you feel that way. Your wrong. I express my opinion on those who I feel are baiting others. I am sorry if your not comfortable with that. I feel you are defending trolls by posting with what you said above. I feel it is your right to voice your opinion, therefore, I will not contact Jun and complain in an attempt to have your opinion not appear in this forum.

I haven't forgotten what the purpose of this forum is, have you?

IF you notice there are two types of posts here, those who are complaining about me, and those who have picked up on a very good point and are discussing it. Then there is me, the whistle blower.

I would like to remind people that the Anonymous forum is not intended for people who don't want to register but want to post -- it is intended for "delicate" subject matters for which people want to keep their identities from being revealed. I encourage people to keep this in mind before posting on the Anonymous forum as that purpose is not what this forum was created for.

Jun wrote that.

The only people who should be posting anonymously are those who are in a 'delicate' position. Not those who are merely commenting.

Jon is merely abusing the anonymous forum by constantly posting anonymously.

Hmmph, I wish someone *would* blow the whistle....

I think the answer to shocked's problem lies in the training. The situation he/she describes is indeed part of it. Some days I can handle that part, some days I can't. Usually because my ego gets in the way. The co-operative nature of most of our training lends itself to these kinds of issues. How much do I resist, when do I resist, in what way do I resist...each dojo has its on culture and assumptions...and from partner to partner, practice to practice, these can vary as well.

Its one of the things I hate about aikido, and one of the things I love about aikido. For technical solutions, I like Mr. S's post. For political solutions, talk to your seniors and/or your instructor. For personal solutions, let go...follow shite's lead when uke, and even when you are shite if uke is senior. Sometimes by paying close attention to what the senior partner is doing, you can encourage them to share. There's a forth dan I train with occationally who doesn't ever speak to me when we train. It goes like this:

First pair of waza, he is shite, he just throws me, bam!

2nd pair of waza I am shite, I try to do what he just did, just how he did it.

3rd pair of waza he is shite, he slows down A LOT on the portions I had problems with. He seems to concentrate on performing excruciatingly correct body movement (this often requires a certain amount of hanging tough on my part, espcially on controls like 4th control [he is one of the few that make me really want to quit when he applies 4th control]).

4th pair of waza I am shite, I slow down A LOT at the same places, and do my best to do what he did, really focusing in on that same correct movement.

This continues until he finds another hole for me to work on.

He is not the only one who teaches me this way...quite a few people do. I try this myself now when working with jr. people. If that fails, then just ask the questions you need to ask...but I prefer to train when training, not to talk.

Best,
Ron

Hi folks,

Let's try to stay on the subject of the original topic starter's subject rather than discussing the merits or lack thereof of anonymous posting here in this thread. If you wish to discuss that subject, please post in the Feedback section of the Forums.

Personally, I think it's OK to question the original poster's situation as to provide context and/or clarification of what happened.

However, calling them a "troll" and questioning the intent of their posting is not welcome as it does not provide any sort of positive contribution to the thread. Continuing to do so, in my mind, is paramount to discouraging further anonymous discussions on this website. Please refrain from doing so.

Once again, if anyone wishes to discuss this sort of thing, please post in the Feedback section. The Anonymous forums is not the place for this discussion.

Back on subject!

Thanks,

-- Jun