Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Techniques

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-06-2006, 08:42 PM   #1
Nick P.
 
Nick P.'s Avatar
Dojo: Sukagawa Aikido Club of Montreal
Location: Montreal
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 642
Offline
Question Chiba Sensei Video Clips

...or there is this way of teaching
1. Turn speakers up really loud
2. set your faces to stunned

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tr-1z...chiba%20sensei

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lo5Na...chiba%20sensei

<face swelling up> I'mm thorry Thenthey, wath that omothe or utha?

  Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2006, 08:52 PM   #2
DonMagee
Location: Indiana
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,311
United_States
Offline
Re: Newbies should struggle?

Letting someone hit you seems very silly to me. If you intend to strike me, I intend to defend.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2006, 09:04 PM   #3
Nick P.
 
Nick P.'s Avatar
Dojo: Sukagawa Aikido Club of Montreal
Location: Montreal
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 642
Offline
Re: Newbies should struggle?

Don,
It seems silly to me too, but there might <might> be some useful points that were trying to be "shared" with uke, or general principles...
***NOTE: I HAVE NO LINK WITH, NOR PRETEND TO UNDERSTAND, HOW CHIBA SENSEI TEACHES.***
1. Don't leave yourself open as the attacker. Why? See slapping video.
2. Atemi can be very useful. How? See slapping video.
3. Ma-ai (sp?) is very important for both partners. Again, refer to video.

It does beg the question; who was the attacker in this case?

  Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2006, 01:10 AM   #4
khammack
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 3
United_States
Offline
Re: Newbies should struggle?

Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
Letting someone hit you seems very silly to me. If you intend to strike me, I intend to defend.
I joined an Aikido club 9 months ago, and we have a teacher who will slap you in the face if you leave your face exposed (via bad positioning for example). He has a karate background, so I guess that informs his aikido as far as atemi openings.

At first, I thought he was messing with me personally and it kind of ticked me off. But now that I've known him long enough to know that he isn't a malicious sort, I actually really appreciate it. I have a judo background, so I am not used to dealing with strikes or thinking about when I'm open for one or not. Most of the time now I know how to cover myself with posture or distance, but if I don't....every once in a while he lets me know.

Also, he doesn't slap that hard.

-kev
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2006, 01:12 AM   #5
mjchip
Dojo: Aikido Jinsei Dojo
Location: Chelmsford, MA
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 97
Offline
Re: Chiba Sensei Video Clips

Chiba Sensei is my teacher's teacher and thus we follow him down the path....

In our unwritten "training agreement" uke's responsibility is to attack sincerely and to maintain proper connection to nage in order to best absorb / neutralize the counter (which includes but is not limited to the strike to the carotid complex in this case). I'd say that this is pretty typical intent for us especially at the higher level kyu ranks and up.

That said, if I'm getting hit that hard I would consider there to be much room for improvement in my ukemi.

Respectfully,

Mark

Last edited by mjchip : 07-07-2006 at 01:19 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2006, 03:13 AM   #6
philipsmith
Dojo: Ren Shin Kan
Location: Birmingham
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 343
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Newbies should struggle?

Quote:
Nick Pittson wrote:
Don,
It seems silly to me too, but there might <might> be some useful points that were trying to be "shared" with uke, or general principles...
***NOTE: I HAVE NO LINK WITH, NOR PRETEND TO UNDERSTAND, HOW CHIBA SENSEI TEACHES.***
1. Don't leave yourself open as the attacker. Why? See slapping video.
2. Atemi can be very useful. How? See slapping video.
3. Ma-ai (sp?) is very important for both partners. Again, refer to video.

It does beg the question; who was the attacker in this case?

Although I agree with the above comments complying isnt as easy as it sounds. Having been on the end of senseis technique quite a few times I can tell you its near impossible; especially when training is "going well" and martial intent is expressed on both sides; or when it is not going well and sensei wants to make a point.

BUT thats why I'm so fond of him and his Aikido, the sincerity, intent and sheer physical power.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2006, 09:22 AM   #7
da2el.ni4na
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 32
United_States
Offline
Re: Chiba Sensei Video Clips

What do folks think of uke's blocking/thwarting (as opposed to getting out of the way/reacting as if it were the first time, a surprise) atemi because they know it is coming as one part of the form? Is it explicitly addressed? Or is the thinking, "uke is always right"?
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2006, 09:42 AM   #8
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Chiba Sensei Video Clips

Hi Daniel,

The times I've had this type of waza done with me during jiyu waza or randori, there was no opportunity for me to block it, evade it, or anything else but take the ukemi. Shite's initial movement created kuzushi, the atemi wasn't destructive, it just put the icing on the cake to direct the movement of my ukemi. Teachers of Chiba Sensei's quality don't have to hammer you with that strike...they already have your balance.

I recently rediscovered this with a 4th dan where I train. Each time I popped up from the previous throw, he was already throwing me again. It was beautiful. Some of the best feeling yet hardest throws I've ever felt. And I was never hurt.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2006, 10:55 AM   #9
gdandscompserv
 
gdandscompserv's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,214
United_States
Offline
Re: Chiba Sensei Video Clips

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
I recently rediscovered this with a 4th dan where I train. Each time I popped up from the previous throw, he was already throwing me again. It was beautiful. Some of the best feeling yet hardest throws I've ever felt. And I was never hurt.

Best,
Ron
and oh how magnificent that feeling. i remember being called upon by sensei to be uke, and how honored i always felt. i knew it was going to hurt a bit as his Aikido is very powerful, but i also knew that he would not injure me.
words cannot express...it's been years since i felt his Aikido and i miss him terribly. since returning from Okinawa i have studied under many sensei's but have only rarely "felt" Aikido as i "felt" it from Yamaguchi Sensei.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2006, 11:07 AM   #10
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,220
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Chiba Sensei Video Clips

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Teachers of Chiba Sensei's quality don't have to hammer you with that strike...they already have your balance.
Then why the slap? if he already has ukes balance, the throw is happening already, the slap is an uneccessary addition ( a similar effect can be had by just missing the face which moves the uke's mind), methinks he just like's hitting people

regards

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2006, 11:35 AM   #11
da2el.ni4na
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 32
United_States
Offline
Re: Chiba Sensei Video Clips

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
or randori, there was no opportunity for me to block it, evade it, or anything else but take the ukemi.
Ron,
Thanks for replying. I meant my question with respect to the more commonly encountered situations - not of practicing with high level people, but with people who you do have those opportunities to block, etc.
Perhaps an extension to my original question would be, do you personally, or does your dojo regard thwarting pre-decided atemi differently with respect to people of different levels?
Dan
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2006, 11:38 AM   #12
mjchip
Dojo: Aikido Jinsei Dojo
Location: Chelmsford, MA
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 97
Offline
Re: Chiba Sensei Video Clips

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:
Then why the slap? if he already has ukes balance, the throw is happening already, the slap is an uneccessary addition ( a similar effect can be had by just missing the face which moves the uke's mind), methinks he just like's hitting people

regards

Mark
No to pick nits but it shouldn't be a slap but rather a strike with tegatana (or palm, fist, etc.).

The purposes of the strike are numerous. In doing the form, the strike is there for nage to practice his/her atemi and for uke to practice moving his/her body to effectively absorb/neutralize the strike. I find that if nage or uke for that matter fails to exercise proper intent during atemi waza(power, focus, etc.) the reaction of the partner tends to get very sloppy.

With regards to your statement above "( a similar effect can be had by just missing the face which moves the uke's mind)" I respond that if you are sure that you aren't going to be hit, your mind won't be moved at all.

Respectfully,

Mark
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2006, 11:42 AM   #13
mjchip
Dojo: Aikido Jinsei Dojo
Location: Chelmsford, MA
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 97
Offline
Re: Chiba Sensei Video Clips

Quote:
Daniel Nishina wrote:
What do folks think of uke's blocking/thwarting (as opposed to getting out of the way/reacting as if it were the first time, a surprise) atemi because they know it is coming as one part of the form? Is it explicitly addressed? Or is the thinking, "uke is always right"?
In my humble opinion, if you aren't doing predetermined kata then any reaction as long as it makes martial sense is okay. So, slipping/parrying/countering would be fine in complete freestyle or in practical application as long as these reactions didn't expose further openings in your defenses.

Respectfully,

Mark
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2006, 12:14 PM   #14
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Chiba Sensei Video Clips

Quote:
Daniel Nishina wrote:
Ron,
Perhaps an extension to my original question would be, do you personally, or does your dojo regard thwarting pre-decided atemi differently with respect to people of different levels?
Dan
No. Many of our kihon waza have atemi, and there are usually specific blocks that uke uses to protect themselves. In the case of the waza shown above, the tegatana strike (not a slap by any means) comes during or just after the initial kuzushi. I have been in a position to block it or dodge when training with someone of my level or less. But I usually don't, because I am doing aikido, and not fighting, so I just take the ukemi, unless someone asks me to check their accuracy or placement or something. I've asked that of my own partners (both junior and senior).

Now, if someone actually hurt me once or twice with the strike....that would be different. But my partners show control...so it's all good.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2006, 12:28 PM   #15
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Chiba Sensei Video Clips

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote:
Then why the slap? if he already has uke's balance, the throw is happening already, the slap is an unnecessary addition ( a similar effect can be had by just missing the face which moves the uke's mind), methinks he just like's hitting people

regards

Mark
As others have said, it isn't a slap. In the higher ranked folks I've trained with, it's as much a cut as a strike.

I have to wonder a little bit sometimes at how aikidoka (myself included) view kuzushi. Sometimes it seems like we think kuzushi is a one time event...that once it happens, it's magically maintained. It often isn't. And there are different levels of kuzushi. So I may make a sharp, focused movement to the side and forward, taking uke's balance to their rear right corner, but not be able to throw with that movement alone due to other considerations (uke has really good capability to adjust and regain balance, relative length of arms and legs and how that affects ma ai, etc). So a natural extension of the waza is to combine a cut with the body movement for a more realistic throw.

This type of cutting technique is often favored for self defense situations, where you have a resistant opponent rather than a compliant uke. You can combine:

1) moving from your current position to protect yourself from the follow up attack and someone behind you,

2) break balance, strike and throw in one or two movements

3) prevent the attacker from attacking again in multiple opponent situations (striking the carotid, while not a guarantee, is quite good at discouraging subsequent attacks).

Minimum 3 levels of protection...probably could count that as more. Good Silat.

Just my opinion though...others may do or think differently.

Best,
Ron

Last edited by Ron Tisdale : 07-07-2006 at 12:31 PM.

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2006, 02:22 PM   #16
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
Location: Florida
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,267
Offline
Re: Chiba Sensei Video Clips

Re: Slapping

Why was UKE attacking with one hand dead?

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
------------------------
http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2006, 02:26 PM   #17
James Kelly
Dojo: Glendale Aikikai
Location: Los Angeles
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 109
United Nations
Offline
Quote:
Don Magee wrote:
Letting someone hit you seems very silly to me. If you intend to strike me, I intend to defend.
having been 'slapped' a few times by Chiba Sensei let me say that if you can give a committed attack and then have time to block that strike, you're a better uke than i. in my case (and that of many others) there isn't a lot you can do about it other than not attacking in the first place.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2006, 02:26 PM   #18
da2el.ni4na
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 32
United_States
Offline
Re: Chiba Sensei Video Clips

Quote:
Mark Chiappetta wrote:
In my humble opinion, if you aren't doing predetermined kata then...
Mark, what about atemi in predetermined kata?
Dan
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2006, 02:32 PM   #19
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: Chiba Sensei Video Clips

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
I have to wonder a little bit sometimes at how aikidoka (myself included) view kuzushi. Sometimes it seems like we think kuzushi is a one time event...that once it happens, it's magically maintained. It often isn't.
Yes, I agree. I learned using three words borrowed from judo: kuzushi, tsukuri, and kake. Kuzushi is the most important (least for me where I am at now) because if you don't have it, you don't have the other two. So, you have balance, then you have being in the right place at the right time or the "fit", and finally the end of the technique or the "throw".

But, if you lose kuzushi, it ripples through and you lose it all. You can have tsukuri, but if you still don't have kuzushi, it won't do you any good.

For example, in iriminage, when you gain kuzushi at the start, you still have to maintain it as you are turning around and uke is running around you. Once you start your movement back the other direction and uke starts to regain his posture and balance, you must keep kuzushi. If not, uke regains posture, balance, and strength. You have to maintain kuzushi until and through tsukuri. If you've kept both, then kake should just happen.

Mark
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2006, 02:33 PM   #20
mjchip
Dojo: Aikido Jinsei Dojo
Location: Chelmsford, MA
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 97
Offline
Re: Chiba Sensei Video Clips

Quote:
Daniel Nishina wrote:
Mark, what about atemi in predetermined kata?
Dan
In the "kata" that we practice, most every element of it is predetermined. In other words, if the form calls for uke to block a counter strike by nage then he/she should do so. There usually isn't much room for improvisation in the basic forms.

Mark
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2006, 02:41 PM   #21
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
United_States
Offline
Re: Chiba Sensei Video Clips

I'm not Mark, but in predetermined kata, we usually won't hit our uke, or at least, not hard. It's simply a matter of control. Now, accidents do happen. And of course, the way uke attacks sometimes causes issues. I've had brown belts so determined to crush me with their yokomen that even with me using an atemi, they bascally were tackling my entire upper body. I asked an instructor what I was doing wrong. He smiled and said 'pop him once'. So I did. End of problem.

Another really strong guy decided to really charge and grab hard with katate mochi/dori. This was kihon training, and for some stupid reason, my mind wasn't as aware as it should have been. When I felt this really hard, live grab and someone weighing a good bit more than I was on the end of my wrist, I reacted without thinking or complete control...break the balance and pop in the mouth with the atemi. "Ooops...so sorry...uh, perhaps you should grab at the speed you can react to the atemi. Not to mention the fact that I should have better control." Bow and continue training. Been popped like that a few times myself.

Best,
Ron (hey, nobody is perfect...Maybe Chiba Sensei was having a bad day...)

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2006, 02:42 PM   #22
mjchip
Dojo: Aikido Jinsei Dojo
Location: Chelmsford, MA
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 97
Offline
Re: Chiba Sensei Video Clips

Quote:
Don J. Modesto wrote:
Re: Slapping

Why was UKE attacking with one hand dead?
If you are referring to why he attacked with the lead tegatana and did not block the counter with the trailing forearm I respond simply this is how "we" do that basic form. We do not block but rather take the opportunity to learn how to move our bodies to neutralize the counter strike.

However, once folks learn how to efficiently neutralize this type of counter through body movement, they can choose to add a block/parry for added insurance.

Respectfully,

Mark
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2006, 02:48 PM   #23
da2el.ni4na
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 32
United_States
Offline
Re: Chiba Sensei Video Clips

Quote:
Mark Chiappetta wrote:
There usually isn't much room for improvisation in the basic forms.
Mark, I'm inclined to agree with your statement above. Instead of asking a question that I know will lead me back to much covered territory, I'd just like to share my context of curiosity.

I've encountered a fair number of ukes who seem preoccupied with protecting themselves, perhaps because of a competitive mentality or perhaps because of a more or less unpleasant or traumatic history. Such ukes never fully attack - some so much so that it's hard even to have a shallow relationship and go through the motions.

I think that "protecting yourself" sounds very rational and is very valued in this culture that it can insidiously become incorporated into one's basic thinking regarding aikido practice. (I say "insidiously" to mean "bad". This is not saying that every single form of "protecting yourself" is bad.)
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2006, 03:50 PM   #24
mjchip
Dojo: Aikido Jinsei Dojo
Location: Chelmsford, MA
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 97
Offline
Re: Chiba Sensei Video Clips

Quote:
Daniel Nishina wrote:
Mark, I'm inclined to agree with your statement above. Instead of asking a question that I know will lead me back to much covered territory, I'd just like to share my context of curiosity.

I've encountered a fair number of ukes who seem preoccupied with protecting themselves, perhaps because of a competitive mentality or perhaps because of a more or less unpleasant or traumatic history. Such ukes never fully attack - some so much so that it's hard even to have a shallow relationship and go through the motions.

I think that "protecting yourself" sounds very rational and is very valued in this culture that it can insidiously become incorporated into one's basic thinking regarding aikido practice. (I say "insidiously" to mean "bad". This is not saying that every single form of "protecting yourself" is bad.)
Daniel,

We are of like mind and I am in general agreement with the basic statement you are making but would like to offer some of my thoughts triggered by your post above:

1. there are ways in which one may attempt to protect oneself which may feel (to the untrained person) effective but may not be at all. In other words, the action may create other potentially more dangerous openings (suki).

2. in order for uke's practice to be proper (in my opinion), he/she must commit fully to the attack and as a result be willing to completely give up their center as nage takes it and neutralizes uke's power

3. Having "shallow [martial] relationships (encounters)" or simply "going through the motions" is not what I consider to be worthwhile training. I strongly believe that we should strive to treat each iteration of each form as if it were the last action we perform on earth. As my teacher explained to me this is the basis of "Ichi go, ichi e".

4. I would venture to say that learning to cope with "unpleasant or traumatic" historical experiences that resurface through budo practice is an important part of self cultivation I'm seeking.

Best,

Mark

Last edited by mjchip : 07-07-2006 at 03:53 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2006, 09:13 PM   #25
NagaBaba
 
NagaBaba's Avatar
Location: Wild, deep, deadly North
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,181
Offline
Re: Chiba Sensei Video Clips

Very interesting discussion, thank you.
Can't add much to Mark comments. One aspect of practice with shihans like Chiba sensei is they are using some teaching methods that may be misunderstood by beginners. Still, 20 years later, with enough training, one may start not only understand reasons behind such teaching, but even use it himself in his own pedagogical approach.

Chiba sensei teaching forces physically students to develop and maintain physical and non-physical connection whole training. In the same time it forces physically students to develop and maintain physical and non-physical leading whole training. That can be achieved cos uke is active in every second and not only playing role of a ‘bag for throwing'.

It is very unique result in aikido world.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
A couple of short Chiba Sensei stories... David Edwards Humor 6 11-22-2005 08:20 AM
Saito sensei's funeral June 22-3, 2002 pyarrow General 3 06-14-2004 01:39 AM
Randori Seminar with George Ledyard Sensei aikibaka131 Seminars 11 10-24-2003 01:30 AM
Jo and bokken Video Clips nikonl Weapons 5 10-21-2002 01:45 PM
Website: Video Clips of Moriteru Ueshiba Doshu AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 0 01-15-2002 05:08 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:16 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2016 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2016 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate