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Old 05-31-2004, 09:15 PM   #1
David Yap
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Meaning of Aikido - A Test

Hi all,

Just want to share your thoughts on this. Treat this as a test on your understanding of aikido. Hence, no links or reference to other websites please.

In the old old days, students who trained with O Sensei would normally have prior training/exposure in other MA disciplines: kendo, judo, jujitsu, karate and even sumo. One day a senior uchideshi had asked O Sensei where do the 3 concepts of go-no-sen, sen-no-sen and sen-sen-no-sen be applied in aikido. For this question, O Sensei chided the senior uchideshi for not knowing the meaning aikido despite training for long time.

Why was O Sensei angry? (Clue: a long-time student was even "ex-communicated" by O Sensei's for going against his teachings).

This "test" preferably is for san-dan & below.

Thanking you, in anticipation, for your respond.

Regards

David

Last edited by David Yap : 05-31-2004 at 09:20 PM.
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Old 05-31-2004, 09:54 PM   #2
Bronson
 
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Re: Meaning of Aikido - A Test

Quote:
David Yap wrote:
Why was O Sensei angry?
Because he didn't know the answer either?

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 05-31-2004, 10:11 PM   #3
PeterR
 
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Re: Meaning of Aikido - A Test

David;

As long as you realize your own Aikido understanding is being tested.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 06-01-2004, 12:18 AM   #4
Largo
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Re: Meaning of Aikido - A Test

that's weird. I posted, but it didn't seem to send. Anyways, here's another shot.

The 3 principles you mentioned are present althroughout aikido and other martial arts as well. Not knowing that answer would indicate a lack of awareness of an opponent's movement, intention, or aims. It's hard to blend if you can't feel (or sense) someone's energy. If you can't do that, than no technique will really work. (other than the lucky punch)

Well...that's my guess.
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Old 06-01-2004, 02:02 AM   #5
David Yap
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Re: Meaning of Aikido - A Test

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote:
David;

As long as you realize your own Aikido understanding is being tested.
Hi Peter,

Yes. I do realize that my understanding of aikido is also being tested. I hope the response here will further widen my understanding of the art and enhance my communication skills on aikido.

Regards

David
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Old 06-01-2004, 05:01 AM   #6
tiyler_durden
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Re: Meaning of Aikido - A Test

Hey,

Is it because there is no Attack in Aikido,it is the way of harmony.In saying this it would go against all of his teachings!!

Thus Osensei became angry as the senior should have know this!

is this right?

Thanks
T.D (the limited poster)

"Deal with the faults as gently a your own"
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Old 06-01-2004, 07:58 AM   #7
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Meaning of Aikido - A Test

Quote:
Is it because there is no Attack in Aikido,it is the way of harmony.In saying this it would go against all of his teachings!!
See 'Budo' and 'Budo Renshu' both purportedly by M. Ueshiba (who at least heavily influenced the text. Both contain photos and drawings of shite/nage/tori attacking to start the technique.

RT

Ron Tisdale
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Old 06-01-2004, 10:44 AM   #8
Doka
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Re: Meaning of Aikido - A Test

Quote:
Tiyler Durden wrote:
Is it because there is no Attack in Aikido,it is the way of harmony.In saying this it would go against all of his teachings!!
Ignore Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere! There is attack in Aikido. Just look at some video clips of O'Sensei to see him move off-line and then attack his Uke! I think there is a clip of that on this site.
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Old 06-01-2004, 01:03 PM   #9
Don_Modesto
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Re: Meaning of Aikido - A Test

Who was "ex-commincated"?

Answer: It's a trick question: Osensei was never angry. He was possessed by KAMI on occasion, but never angry himself.

Don J. Modesto
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Old 06-01-2004, 01:14 PM   #10
John Boswell
 
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Re: Meaning of Aikido - A Test

As I begin looking up, down, left, right, in front and behind me... I then take three steps to the side and point at Sensei Don.

"He said it!"

/point Don

/point Don


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Old 06-01-2004, 01:32 PM   #11
shihonage
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Re: Meaning of Aikido - A Test

Quote:
David Yap wrote:
Hi all,

Just want to share your thoughts on this. Treat this as a test on your understanding of aikido. Hence, no links or reference to other websites please.

In the old old days, students who trained with O Sensei would normally have prior training/exposure in other MA disciplines: kendo, judo, jujitsu, karate and even sumo. One day a senior uchideshi had asked O Sensei where do the 3 concepts of go-no-sen, sen-no-sen and sen-sen-no-sen be applied in aikido. For this question, O Sensei chided the senior uchideshi for not knowing the meaning aikido despite training for long time.

Why was O Sensei angry?
Because he had a fight with his wife earlier in the day.
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Old 06-01-2004, 02:07 PM   #12
Doka
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Re: Meaning of Aikido - A Test

TOTM?

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Old 06-01-2004, 02:11 PM   #13
Bronson
 
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Re: Meaning of Aikido - A Test

Maybe he was constipated, had diarrhea, stubbed his toe, hit himself in the jimmy-junk while tucking his hakama in, or any of the other myriad things that happen to people to put them in a bad mood.

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 06-01-2004, 02:14 PM   #14
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Meaning of Aikido - A Test

Nah, it was probably the fight with his wife...O Sensei would NEVER get something so mundane as diarrhea...

Ron (sorry, couldn't help it)

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Old 06-01-2004, 02:17 PM   #15
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Re: Meaning of Aikido - A Test

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
O Sensei would NEVER get something so mundane as diarrhea...
That's probably true. He was divine after all....except for that whole unfortunate liver thing.

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 06-01-2004, 02:23 PM   #16
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Meaning of Aikido - A Test

Bronson, I just snorted water out my nose!

To David, the original poster,

I'm sorry if some of our replies come off as a little flippant. I think your post came off as a little strange...why should you wish to 'test' us? Perhaps if you give a better clue of what you are looking for.

Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 06-01-2004, 02:28 PM   #17
Bronson
 
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Re: Meaning of Aikido - A Test

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
Bronson, I just snorted water out my nose!
My work here is done

Yes, I'm being flippant. I can't possibly know the reasons O- sensei felt the way he felt. I can't possibly know the reasons my girlfriend feels the way she feels and she's in the next room. I can ask her, I can empathize with her but I can't know...no one can. It's hard enough to try to figure out how to deal with everyday, living peoples feelings and motivations let alone to try to know what somebody as prone to esoterica as O-sensei was thinking decades ago. I can't know so I don't worry about it.

Bronson

Last edited by Bronson : 06-01-2004 at 02:31 PM.

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 06-01-2004, 02:32 PM   #18
Doka
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Re: Meaning of Aikido - A Test

Quote:
Mark Dobro wrote:
TOTM?

BTW, I meant Mrs. O'Sensei.

I don't think even O'Sensei could menstruate!

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Old 06-01-2004, 07:27 PM   #19
PeterR
 
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Re: Meaning of Aikido - A Test

David

My original feeling also and but I got to ask - which senior uchi-deshi was excommunicated?
Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
I think your post came off as a little strange...why should you wish to 'test' us? Perhaps if you give a better clue of what you are looking for.
Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote:
See 'Budo' and 'Budo Renshu' both purportedly by M. Ueshiba (who at least heavily influenced the text. Both contain photos and drawings of shite/nage/tori attacking to start the technique..
Anyhow - most of this comes from an interview that Ueshiba M. gave relatively late in life where he says the spiritual side is emphasized over the physical. Its pretty clear to me that he is not negating the three timings but says that Aikido has moved beyond it. Since at the highest levels you control uke there is no attack by either uke or nage.

Of course practically speaking we don't train at the highest levels so the three timings have their place.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 06-01-2004, 09:33 PM   #20
David Yap
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Re: Meaning of Aikido - A Test

Hi all,

Thanks for all the response thus far. This question wasn't actually meant to be a test test thingy.

I'm sure a lot of us here already knew the answers but I'm just as sure that that there is an equal number of us who don't really know the answer. In my previous post to Peter, I pointed out that in a yudansha exam that I witnessed years ago when I was a raw student, a couple of my instructors failed in their nidan and sandan exams despite what we thought was a flawless and free-flowing techniques. The reason given for the failure by the visiting shihan then was the techniques lacked the essence of aikido. A couple of weeks ago, I watched a demonstration given by the same instructors (who incidentally have passed their exams under a different visiting shihan) and I realized why they failed in the first place. Six years (I estimated) had passed, with the training and instructing, still no spiritual growth. I didn't see any gentleness or compassion, I saw raw physical power. The "jutsu" part of the art was obvious but the "do" part was absolutely missing. Luckily, for us, the next performance given by the two visiting shihan reminded us what really is aikido. My "test" here is not about acknowledge of techniques and Japanese terminology but rather is focus on your passion for the art. If you love the art, then put in the extra effort to find out what it is all about, from all angles. How do the techniques blend with the philosophy? Don't just wait for the kyu/yudansha exams. The test begins the moment we step on the mat: Why I can't move our sempai? Why I can't do it (the technique) with less effort? Am I not extending enough? Why can't I keep my balance after executing a throw? Am I using too much force? etc., etc. If we trying want to move on to being instructors, then we need to test ourselves, widen my understanding of art, accept the truths and discard the misconceptions - that's the path to growth.

Again, this post or "test" is not like the "you must respond" kind of post. It is about O' Sense's aikido. If you do not know, fine, either you do some research/study or just wait for the answer(s) from others who do. Years ago, I torn some ligaments in my knee and couldn't train for three months, yet I attended class and watched every training and found that I actually learned more from watching. I watched the instructors' movements and students' and analyzed what were in the techniques and what weren't. When I recovered from my injury, my techniques were better than before.

As far as contributors or non-contributors for growth is concerned, I quote (with due respect), that three categories:

1. Those who make things happen
2. Those who watch things happened
3. Those who do not know what's happening.

Regards

David

PS. To those of you thought that I've put up a smart-ass thread, again, my humble apology.

Last edited by David Yap : 06-01-2004 at 09:40 PM.
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Old 06-01-2004, 10:47 PM   #21
David Yap
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My understanding (not necessary the right answer)

Yes, it is about attack - the type of attacks that one intends in a competition. So, it has more to do with competitions that O Sensei detested later in his life. In this sense, I need not mention the name of the senior disciple who was "ex-communicated".

Go-no-sen, sen-no-sen and sen-sen-no-sen are fighting/competition strategies/concepts. I first come across these terminologies in kumite (karate competition) training. These concepts are also used in kendo and judo training. Without dwelling into details, in karate competitions, one scope points by landing blows/kicks to specific areas on the opponent's torso or a near/close contact to the head. When faced with an opponent who has a defensive posture and has these target points well guarded, then, one may need to apply tactical measures to bring down the opponent's guard - this may involve feints or presenting an opening to entice the opponent to initiate an attack . Hence, techniques can be categorized (but not exclusive) as Go-no-sen, sen-no-sen or sen-sen-no-sen depending ones intend. In the old old days of sword fighting in Japan, a duel to the death could last hours with the opponents facing each other in guarded stance/posture. Like a game of chess, each knew the game and the strategies awaiting for the wrong move would result in fatality of one.

This maxim from Gichin Funakoshi applies aptly to our jiyu-waza as it would to karate-do: "Create an opening and you would find the technique". With this, I leave it to you to figure out what he meant

Regards

David

Last edited by David Yap : 06-01-2004 at 10:54 PM.
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Old 06-01-2004, 11:13 PM   #22
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Re: My understanding (not necessary the right answer)

Quote:
David Yap wrote:
Yes, it is about attack - the type of attacks that one intends in a competition. So, it has more to do with competitions that O Sensei detested later in his life. In this sense, I need not mention the name of the senior disciple who was "ex-communicated".
Maybe you should - because you'ld be wrong.

Quote:
Nariyama Tetsuro Shihan wrote:
In spite of this, after Ueshiba's death, Tomiki Sensei was criticised for his actions by the leading members of Aikikai at that time. They demanded that he should stop using the name 'aikido'. I recall Tomiki Sensei's strong reaction, "I have got only one teacher and that is Ueshiba Sensei. Only he can excommunicate me".
When exactly did this ex-communication occur and what is your source for this information?

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 06-01-2004, 11:34 PM   #23
David Yap
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Re: Meaning of Aikido - A Test

Peter,

Not meant to cross-sword. Notice my usage of the inverted commas " " for implications - not necessary recorded or accurate.

Primarily, the clue was for competition and nothing further.

Regards

David
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Old 06-01-2004, 11:36 PM   #24
stuartjvnorton
 
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Re: Meaning of Aikido - A Test

Quote:
David Yap wrote:
Hi all,
PS. To those of you thought that I've put up a smart-ass thread, again, my humble apology.
I think I liked it better when it was a smart-ass thread.
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Old 06-02-2004, 02:28 AM   #25
Charles Hill
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Re: Meaning of Aikido - A Test

Quote:
Mark Dobro wrote:
Ignore Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere! There is attack in Aikido. Just look at some video clips of O'Sensei to see him move off-line and then attack his Uke! I think there is a clip of that on this site.
Interestingly, the Founder, himself, said there is no attack in Aikido. I take it as a kind of "koan" that I`ve yet to figure out.

To the original question, it was Okumura Shihan that asked about the various "sen" and the answer (as I remember it) is that there is only one sen. Again, another koan to figure out.

Charles Hill
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