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-   -   Meaning of Aikido - A Test (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5732)

David Yap 05-31-2004 09:15 PM

Meaning of Aikido - A Test
 
Hi all,

Just want to share your thoughts on this. Treat this as a test on your understanding of aikido. Hence, no links or reference to other websites please.

In the old old days, students who trained with O Sensei would normally have prior training/exposure in other MA disciplines: kendo, judo, jujitsu, karate and even sumo. One day a senior uchideshi had asked O Sensei where do the 3 concepts of go-no-sen, sen-no-sen and sen-sen-no-sen be applied in aikido. For this question, O Sensei chided the senior uchideshi for not knowing the meaning aikido despite training for long time.

Why was O Sensei angry? (Clue: a long-time student was even "ex-communicated" by O Sensei's for going against his teachings).

This "test" preferably is for san-dan & below.

Thanking you, in anticipation, for your respond.

Regards

David

Bronson 05-31-2004 09:54 PM

Re: Meaning of Aikido - A Test
 
Quote:

David Yap wrote:
Why was O Sensei angry?

Because he didn't know the answer either? :D evileyes :D

Bronson

PeterR 05-31-2004 10:11 PM

Re: Meaning of Aikido - A Test
 
David;

As long as you realize your own Aikido understanding is being tested.

Largo 06-01-2004 12:18 AM

Re: Meaning of Aikido - A Test
 
that's weird. I posted, but it didn't seem to send. Anyways, here's another shot.

The 3 principles you mentioned are present althroughout aikido and other martial arts as well. Not knowing that answer would indicate a lack of awareness of an opponent's movement, intention, or aims. It's hard to blend if you can't feel (or sense) someone's energy. If you can't do that, than no technique will really work. (other than the lucky punch)

Well...that's my guess.

David Yap 06-01-2004 02:02 AM

Re: Meaning of Aikido - A Test
 
Quote:

Peter Rehse wrote:
David;

As long as you realize your own Aikido understanding is being tested.

Hi Peter,

Yes. I do realize that my understanding of aikido is also being tested. I hope the response here will further widen my understanding of the art and enhance my communication skills on aikido.

Regards

David

tiyler_durden 06-01-2004 05:01 AM

Re: Meaning of Aikido - A Test
 
Hey,

Is it because there is no Attack in Aikido,it is the way of harmony.In saying this it would go against all of his teachings!!

Thus Osensei became angry as the senior should have know this!

is this right?

Thanks
T.D (the limited poster)

Ron Tisdale 06-01-2004 07:58 AM

Re: Meaning of Aikido - A Test
 
Quote:

Is it because there is no Attack in Aikido,it is the way of harmony.In saying this it would go against all of his teachings!!
See 'Budo' and 'Budo Renshu' both purportedly by M. Ueshiba (who at least heavily influenced the text. Both contain photos and drawings of shite/nage/tori attacking to start the technique.

RT

Doka 06-01-2004 10:44 AM

Re: Meaning of Aikido - A Test
 
Quote:

Tiyler Durden wrote:
Is it because there is no Attack in Aikido,it is the way of harmony.In saying this it would go against all of his teachings!!

Ignore Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere! There is attack in Aikido. Just look at some video clips of O'Sensei to see him move off-line and then attack his Uke! I think there is a clip of that on this site.

Don_Modesto 06-01-2004 01:03 PM

Re: Meaning of Aikido - A Test
 
Who was "ex-commincated"?

Answer: It's a trick question: Osensei was never angry. He was possessed by KAMI on occasion, but never angry himself.

John Boswell 06-01-2004 01:14 PM

Re: Meaning of Aikido - A Test
 
As I begin looking up, down, left, right, in front and behind me... I then take three steps to the side and point at Sensei Don.

"He said it!"

/point Don

/point Don

:D

shihonage 06-01-2004 01:32 PM

Re: Meaning of Aikido - A Test
 
Quote:

David Yap wrote:
Hi all,

Just want to share your thoughts on this. Treat this as a test on your understanding of aikido. Hence, no links or reference to other websites please.

In the old old days, students who trained with O Sensei would normally have prior training/exposure in other MA disciplines: kendo, judo, jujitsu, karate and even sumo. One day a senior uchideshi had asked O Sensei where do the 3 concepts of go-no-sen, sen-no-sen and sen-sen-no-sen be applied in aikido. For this question, O Sensei chided the senior uchideshi for not knowing the meaning aikido despite training for long time.

Why was O Sensei angry?

Because he had a fight with his wife earlier in the day.

Doka 06-01-2004 02:07 PM

Re: Meaning of Aikido - A Test
 
TOTM?

;)

Bronson 06-01-2004 02:11 PM

Re: Meaning of Aikido - A Test
 
Maybe he was constipated, had diarrhea, stubbed his toe, hit himself in the jimmy-junk while tucking his hakama in, or any of the other myriad things that happen to people to put them in a bad mood. :p

Bronson

Ron Tisdale 06-01-2004 02:14 PM

Re: Meaning of Aikido - A Test
 
Nah, it was probably the fight with his wife...O Sensei would NEVER get something so mundane as diarrhea...

Ron (sorry, couldn't help it)

Bronson 06-01-2004 02:17 PM

Re: Meaning of Aikido - A Test
 
Quote:

Ron Tisdale wrote:
O Sensei would NEVER get something so mundane as diarrhea...

That's probably true. He was divine after all....except for that whole unfortunate liver thing.

Bronson

Ron Tisdale 06-01-2004 02:23 PM

Re: Meaning of Aikido - A Test
 
Bronson, I just snorted water out my nose!

To David, the original poster,

I'm sorry if some of our replies come off as a little flippant. I think your post came off as a little strange...why should you wish to 'test' us? Perhaps if you give a better clue of what you are looking for.

Ron

Bronson 06-01-2004 02:28 PM

Re: Meaning of Aikido - A Test
 
Quote:

Ron Tisdale wrote:
Bronson, I just snorted water out my nose!

My work here is done :p

Yes, I'm being flippant. I can't possibly know the reasons O- sensei felt the way he felt. I can't possibly know the reasons my girlfriend feels the way she feels and she's in the next room. I can ask her, I can empathize with her but I can't know...no one can. It's hard enough to try to figure out how to deal with everyday, living peoples feelings and motivations let alone to try to know what somebody as prone to esoterica as O-sensei was thinking decades ago. I can't know so I don't worry about it.

Bronson

Doka 06-01-2004 02:32 PM

Re: Meaning of Aikido - A Test
 
Quote:

Mark Dobro wrote:
TOTM?

;)

BTW, I meant Mrs. O'Sensei. :)

I don't think even O'Sensei could menstruate!

:D

PeterR 06-01-2004 07:27 PM

Re: Meaning of Aikido - A Test
 
David

My original feeling also and but I got to ask - which senior uchi-deshi was excommunicated?
Quote:

Ron Tisdale wrote:
I think your post came off as a little strange...why should you wish to 'test' us? Perhaps if you give a better clue of what you are looking for.

Quote:

Ron Tisdale wrote:
See 'Budo' and 'Budo Renshu' both purportedly by M. Ueshiba (who at least heavily influenced the text. Both contain photos and drawings of shite/nage/tori attacking to start the technique..

Anyhow - most of this comes from an interview that Ueshiba M. gave relatively late in life where he says the spiritual side is emphasized over the physical. Its pretty clear to me that he is not negating the three timings but says that Aikido has moved beyond it. Since at the highest levels you control uke there is no attack by either uke or nage.

Of course practically speaking we don't train at the highest levels so the three timings have their place.

David Yap 06-01-2004 09:33 PM

Re: Meaning of Aikido - A Test
 
Hi all,

Thanks for all the response thus far. This question wasn't actually meant to be a test test thingy.

I'm sure a lot of us here already knew the answers but I'm just as sure that that there is an equal number of us who don't really know the answer. In my previous post to Peter, I pointed out that in a yudansha exam that I witnessed years ago when I was a raw student, a couple of my instructors failed in their nidan and sandan exams despite what we thought was a flawless and free-flowing techniques. The reason given for the failure by the visiting shihan then was the techniques lacked the essence of aikido. A couple of weeks ago, I watched a demonstration given by the same instructors (who incidentally have passed their exams under a different visiting shihan) and I realized why they failed in the first place. Six years (I estimated) had passed, with the training and instructing, still no spiritual growth. I didn't see any gentleness or compassion, I saw raw physical power. The "jutsu" part of the art was obvious but the "do" part was absolutely missing. Luckily, for us, the next performance given by the two visiting shihan reminded us what really is aikido. My "test" here is not about acknowledge of techniques and Japanese terminology but rather is focus on your passion for the art. If you love the art, then put in the extra effort to find out what it is all about, from all angles. How do the techniques blend with the philosophy? Don't just wait for the kyu/yudansha exams. The test begins the moment we step on the mat: Why I can't move our sempai? Why I can't do it (the technique) with less effort? Am I not extending enough? Why can't I keep my balance after executing a throw? Am I using too much force? etc., etc. If we trying want to move on to being instructors, then we need to test ourselves, widen my understanding of art, accept the truths and discard the misconceptions - that's the path to growth.

Again, this post or "test" is not like the "you must respond" kind of post. It is about O' Sense's aikido. If you do not know, fine, either you do some research/study or just wait for the answer(s) from others who do. Years ago, I torn some ligaments in my knee and couldn't train for three months, yet I attended class and watched every training and found that I actually learned more from watching. I watched the instructors' movements and students' and analyzed what were in the techniques and what weren't. When I recovered from my injury, my techniques were better than before.

As far as contributors or non-contributors for growth is concerned, I quote (with due respect), that three categories:

1. Those who make things happen
2. Those who watch things happened
3. Those who do not know what's happening.

Regards

David

PS. To those of you thought that I've put up a smart-ass thread, again, my humble apology.

David Yap 06-01-2004 10:47 PM

My understanding (not necessary the right answer)
 
Yes, it is about attack - the type of attacks that one intends in a competition. So, it has more to do with competitions that O Sensei detested later in his life. In this sense, I need not mention the name of the senior disciple who was "ex-communicated".

Go-no-sen, sen-no-sen and sen-sen-no-sen are fighting/competition strategies/concepts. I first come across these terminologies in kumite (karate competition) training. These concepts are also used in kendo and judo training. Without dwelling into details, in karate competitions, one scope points by landing blows/kicks to specific areas on the opponent's torso or a near/close contact to the head. When faced with an opponent who has a defensive posture and has these target points well guarded, then, one may need to apply tactical measures to bring down the opponent's guard - this may involve feints or presenting an opening to entice the opponent to initiate an attack . Hence, techniques can be categorized (but not exclusive) as Go-no-sen, sen-no-sen or sen-sen-no-sen depending ones intend. In the old old days of sword fighting in Japan, a duel to the death could last hours with the opponents facing each other in guarded stance/posture. Like a game of chess, each knew the game and the strategies awaiting for the wrong move would result in fatality of one.

This maxim from Gichin Funakoshi applies aptly to our jiyu-waza as it would to karate-do: "Create an opening and you would find the technique". With this, I leave it to you to figure out what he meant :)

Regards

David

PeterR 06-01-2004 11:13 PM

Re: My understanding (not necessary the right answer)
 
Quote:

David Yap wrote:
Yes, it is about attack - the type of attacks that one intends in a competition. So, it has more to do with competitions that O Sensei detested later in his life. In this sense, I need not mention the name of the senior disciple who was "ex-communicated".

Maybe you should - because you'ld be wrong.

Quote:

Nariyama Tetsuro Shihan wrote:
In spite of this, after Ueshiba's death, Tomiki Sensei was criticised for his actions by the leading members of Aikikai at that time. They demanded that he should stop using the name 'aikido'. I recall Tomiki Sensei's strong reaction, "I have got only one teacher and that is Ueshiba Sensei. Only he can excommunicate me".

When exactly did this ex-communication occur and what is your source for this information?

David Yap 06-01-2004 11:34 PM

Re: Meaning of Aikido - A Test
 
Peter,

Not meant to cross-sword. Notice my usage of the inverted commas " " for implications - not necessary recorded or accurate.

Primarily, the clue was for competition and nothing further.

Regards

David

stuartjvnorton 06-01-2004 11:36 PM

Re: Meaning of Aikido - A Test
 
Quote:

David Yap wrote:
Hi all,
PS. To those of you thought that I've put up a smart-ass thread, again, my humble apology.

I think I liked it better when it was a smart-ass thread.

Charles Hill 06-02-2004 02:28 AM

Re: Meaning of Aikido - A Test
 
Quote:

Mark Dobro wrote:
Ignore Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere! There is attack in Aikido. Just look at some video clips of O'Sensei to see him move off-line and then attack his Uke! I think there is a clip of that on this site.

Interestingly, the Founder, himself, said there is no attack in Aikido. I take it as a kind of "koan" that I`ve yet to figure out.

To the original question, it was Okumura Shihan that asked about the various "sen" and the answer (as I remember it) is that there is only one sen. Again, another koan to figure out.

Charles Hill


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