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Old 07-16-2014, 10:29 AM   #51
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Re: Irimi Nage

And then we have

http://vimeo.com/100639239

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 07-16-2014, 10:32 AM   #52
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Re: Irimi Nage

Quote:
Adam Huss wrote: View Post
Cup the neck...keep it snug to your chest or even shoulder - wherever uke ends up depending on size and momentum, so long as they are tightly attached to nage.
she took the collar from quite a distance from the initial irimi yeah? The result is a very unbalanced uke. Talk about crooked spine! From there, no need to tenkan, just raise the hand and cut forward and BAM! check mat!

I gotta say, she got her own style. Just like Tissier shihan. Now, I wonder whether we have her doing this in fast motion (not instructional). Because I kinda think it's hard to catch the neck/head in that initial distance. You need a long hand to catch that and snug 'em to the shoulder.
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Old 07-16-2014, 10:48 AM   #53
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Re: Irimi Nage

Quote:
Konstantinus Darwin wrote: View Post
she took the collar from quite a distance from the initial irimi yeah? The result is a very unbalanced uke. Talk about crooked spine! From there, no need to tenkan, just raise the hand and cut forward and BAM! check mat!

I gotta say, she got her own style. Just like Tissier shihan. Now, I wonder whether we have her doing this in fast motion (not instructional). Because I kinda think it's hard to catch the neck/head in that initial distance. You need a long hand to catch that and snug 'em to the shoulder.
I'm not familiar with Hendricks Sensei's methodology, but I think I can also see one point where she rests her hand on the junction between the neck and shoulder before grabbing (Aikido Journal video @2:03?); it looked like it could easily go into how I've been taught to control the upper spine, by gathering/controlling a chunk of the sternocleidomastoid in the neck, and drawing it to the body (more of a cut or a fishhook than a grab).

Last edited by mathewjgano : 07-16-2014 at 10:54 AM.

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Old 07-16-2014, 11:09 AM   #54
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Re: Irimi Nage

Quote:
Konstantinus Darwin wrote: View Post
I gotta say, she got her own style.
Hendricks Sensei is doing textbook Iwama style.

http://youtu.be/b3JtD6KRMZ0?t=5m51s

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Old 07-16-2014, 01:08 PM   #55
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Re: Irimi Nage

Quote:
Konstantinus Darwin wrote: View Post
she took the collar from quite a distance from the initial irimi yeah? The result is a very unbalanced uke. Talk about crooked spine! From there, no need to tenkan, just raise the hand and cut forward and BAM! check mat!

I gotta say, she got her own style. Just like Tissier shihan. Now, I wonder whether we have her doing this in fast motion (not instructional). Because I kinda think it's hard to catch the neck/head in that initial distance. You need a long hand to catch that and snug 'em to the shoulder.
I'm not sure if I catch your exact meaning, but I think I do. I would invite you to experiment with moving your whole body in close to Uke. This will give you that range and take you out of the effective range of Uke's attack.

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Old 07-16-2014, 01:57 PM   #56
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Re: Irimi Nage

Sorry, I posted the wrong quote. I meant to respond to the idea of what Hendricks Sensei might do if there was no collar.
Quote:
...but, if the opponent is shirtless (no collar) where would she grab?

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Old 07-16-2014, 06:01 PM   #57
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Re: Irimi Nage

Quote:
Adam Huss wrote: View Post
Can you explain a little what you want to display with this link? I apologize if you did in another post, but I couldn't find it if there is one.

thanks!
Adam, my student in the clip is demonstrating the Merritt Stevens SD system, and there's a practically-applied iriminage in it a technique #5 with the spine-locking finish witht he crumple throw there. I was talking about the difference in "nice" kata technique where one throws a compliant uke "to the horizon" allowing for clean, easy ukemi, and what is more likely to happen with a non-compliant dude trying to do bad things. And... I was quite tired from work when I was posting it and it seemed perfectly appropriate to the thread at the time.

I find it interesting that the kanji character for kuzushi illustrates a mountain falling on a house.
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Old 07-16-2014, 09:52 PM   #58
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Re: Irimi Nage

Ok thanks for the explanation. Makes sense.

Last time I ran aikido class we worked on techniques from sparring. Interestingly it seemed I tended to find myself doing iriminage variations.

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Old 07-16-2014, 10:50 PM   #59
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Re: Irimi Nage

Quote:
Konstantinus Darwin wrote: View Post
she took the collar from quite a distance from the initial irimi yeah? The result is a very unbalanced uke. Talk about crooked spine! From there, no need to tenkan, just raise the hand and cut forward and BAM! check mat!

I gotta say, she got her own style. Just like Tissier shihan. Now, I wonder whether we have her doing this in fast motion (not instructional). Because I kinda think it's hard to catch the neck/head in that initial distance. You need a long hand to catch that and snug 'em to the shoulder.
As Demetrio says, it is textbook Iwama style.

Anyway, the distance is not as great as it looks. When doing this, whether you grab the collar, the shoulder, or the neck, the trick is to rest your forearm along uke's spine. If your elbow is up, you are in trouble.
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Old 07-17-2014, 03:09 AM   #60
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Re: Irimi Nage

Quote:
Robin Boyd wrote: View Post
As Demetrio says, it is textbook Iwama style.

Anyway, the distance is not as great as it looks. When doing this, whether you grab the collar, the shoulder, or the neck, the trick is to rest your forearm along uke's spine. If your elbow is up, you are in trouble.
At first I want to ask why should the fore arm rest along uke's spine, but watching the clip, I understand. Haha, you find many things within this one technique. Many ways to throw, many ways to unbalance. It's new things everyday for me

I don't like grabbing collar, it's something that's not always readily available in many situations.

How to make the throw into a more spectacular high fall? Just like my avatar?
Do i have to always cut to the corner of the footing of uke where they have no leg?
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Old 07-17-2014, 07:09 AM   #61
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Re: Irimi Nage

I originally learned irimi nage by not allowing uke to rotate into nage. This resulted in the "backward throw" that somewhat resembles the clothesline throw from WWF (or WWE, or whatever). It is not difficult to imagine stacking our partner's feet over their head and going back-of-the-neck into the ground while stacked. It was spectacular if uke was prepared to prevent her feet from stacking (because uke spun around nage's arm like a cartoon, feet flying and everything). But it is a very uncomfortable throw otherwise.

Here is a a sample from Shioda Sensei. Check out the 1:15-1:25ish mark for some irimi nages:
http://youtu.be/kj0TgZTs2cg
I understand that these were not comfortable ukemi. Shioda sensei's irimi nage is also a good look at what the throw looks like when you reduce the "up/down" that we see exaggerated in other demonstrations. They tend to look more like a Hulk hand slam...

Then came along the variation that allows uke to rotate into nage and around the hip (or pelvis), which I believe to be at least a little safer, if not more comfortable. The change in rotation point gives you some ability for a little more "umpf" without necessarily throwing uke on her neck.

Diagonal movement using the imagery of corners is pretty common instruction in training for kata. Understanding that at some point, yes, you should transcend the need for those "mechanics". The gi grab should not be the technique, but rather to control uke during the technique ( I believe due to the exaggerated movement) - it's more as a courtesy for uke...

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Old 07-17-2014, 09:28 AM   #62
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Re: Irimi Nage

Quote:
Konstantinus Darwin wrote: View Post
How to make the throw into a more spectacular high fall? Just like my avatar?
Do i have to always cut to the corner of the footing of uke where they have no leg?
For most spectacular falls, uke has to help. Not that they have to give you the throw, but they have to come in with a lot of energy, be willing to go with the flow of whatever you're doing, and be confident enough in their own ability to not hold back out of fear.

The footwork for the irimi nage omote variation I mentioned up above is a little different, but otherwise yes, you need to cut the "missing" leg.

Katherine
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Old 07-18-2014, 07:45 AM   #63
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Re: Irimi Nage

another 5 minutes clip by Ryuji Shirakawa Sensei

Beautiful, just beautiful. I can watch this all day. This is tissier's like, right? Hombu's Irimi nage. Sometimes he's smiling too while doing that? Happy? lol

well, the principles of irimi nage is (after 3 pages):
corners where no foot, misalign the spine, grab the head/neck/shoulder and the body shall follow, cut in spiral/forward, cut to where's no foot in the corner etc (add yourselves)

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
I originally learned irimi nage by not allowing uke to rotate into nage. This resulted in the "backward throw" that somewhat resembles the clothesline throw from WWF (or WWE, or whatever). It is not difficult to imagine stacking our partner's feet over their head and going back-of-the-neck into the ground while stacked. It was spectacular if uke was prepared to prevent her feet from stacking (because uke spun around nage's arm like a cartoon, feet flying and everything). But it is a very uncomfortable throw otherwise.

Here is a a sample from Shioda Sensei. Check out the 1:15-1:25ish mark for some irimi nages:
http://youtu.be/kj0TgZTs2cg
I understand that these were not comfortable ukemi. Shioda sensei's irimi nage is also a good look at what the throw looks like when you reduce the "up/down" that we see exaggerated in other demonstrations. They tend to look more like a Hulk hand slam...

Then came along the variation that allows uke to rotate into nage and around the hip (or pelvis), which I believe to be at least a little safer, if not more comfortable. The change in rotation point gives you some ability for a little more "umpf" without necessarily throwing uke on her neck.

Diagonal movement using the imagery of corners is pretty common instruction in training for kata. Understanding that at some point, yes, you should transcend the need for those "mechanics". The gi grab should not be the technique, but rather to control uke during the technique ( I believe due to the exaggerated movement) - it's more as a courtesy for uke...
Gozo Shioda is godlike. A monster. Yoshinkan is "rough" and mechanized, but for people who have no clue what is aikido, their way of studying is very good. Almost all of the people from Yoshinkan that I met have a very good center and know how to use it naturally even though they learned it "mechanically". Heck, if I am confused about a technique, I consult the yoshinkan's, they have a clear instructions that can shed some lights on a technique.

Yoshinkan's iriminage is rough, but yes, it's a balance buster, maybe not beautiful, but it gets the job done. They usually cut diagonally outward to uke's outer 45 degree, while aikikai's cut diagonally inward to nage's inside 45 degree.
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Old 07-18-2014, 08:08 AM   #64
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Re: Irimi Nage

Quote:
Konstantinus Darwin wrote: View Post
another 5 minutes clip by Ryuji Shirakawa Sensei

Beautiful, just beautiful. I can watch this all day. This is tissier's like, right? Hombu's Irimi nage. Sometimes he's smiling too while doing that? Happy? lol
I think it really needs to be pointed out that this guy has some very cooperative ukes.
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Old 07-18-2014, 11:38 AM   #65
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Re: Irimi Nage

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
I think it really needs to be pointed out that this guy has some very cooperative ukes.
Dear Cliff,
An understatement if ever I read one.Cheers, Joe
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Old 07-19-2014, 09:14 AM   #66
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Re: Irimi Nage

When I saw that clip again, he grabbed the side of neck and the upper arm of uke, then just kaiten around, hence, producing the trademarked "faceplant", then waiting for uke to recover then step forward then cut to the corners where no footings are present.

Sounds so simple, maybe I will try this next time in dojo. I think to make uke make an extra step to our hip, we need to step forward or backward (3:26).

But I think, ultimately, the uke at least must know the "choreography", that is: to keep running forward, nage will lead uke in circle and throw.

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Cliff,
An understatement if ever I read one.Cheers, Joe
Why? what do you think?

Last edited by Asou : 07-19-2014 at 09:22 AM.
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Old 07-19-2014, 02:03 PM   #67
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Re: Irimi Nage

Quote:
Konstantinus Darwin wrote: View Post
But I think, ultimately, the uke at least must know the "choreography", that is: to keep running forward, nage will lead uke in circle and throw.
Well, I don't necessarily agree that uke's role is to "keep running forward" - not unless there is a logical reason to do so, as in, 1) it will continue an actual attack on nage's center or 2) nage provides no other choice because uke's structure is already fully dependent upon the connection to nage's arm and he will fall down if that support is removed.
In my view, uke DOES need to learn to follow where nage is leading in the sense of body awareness, overcoming the tendency many of us have as beginners not so much to oppose as to root because we don't know what else to do....
But to default to choreography, rather than learning to stay connected, can be taken to ridiculous lengths...as I've described before, for instance, an uke who grabbed my arm as the opening attack for a form of iriminage, and starts running in a circle around me before I have moved a muscle; he would have run in circles around me all day like a pony around a mill, because "uke is supposed to run forward" ....like the uke who knows you are supposed to do ikkyo and turns his back on you immediately after attacking....from a martial point of view, absurd, and it teaches neither uke nor nage anything meaningful.

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Old 07-19-2014, 03:56 PM   #68
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Re: Irimi Nage

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Well, I don't necessarily agree that uke's role is to "keep running forward" - not unless there is a logical reason to do so, as in, 1) it will continue an actual attack on nage's center or 2) nage provides no other choice because uke's structure is already fully dependent upon the connection to nage's arm and he will fall down if that support is removed.
In my view, uke DOES need to learn to follow where nage is leading in the sense of body awareness, overcoming the tendency many of us have as beginners not so much to oppose as to root because we don't know what else to do....
But to default to choreography, rather than learning to stay connected, can be taken to ridiculous lengths...as I've described before, for instance, an uke who grabbed my arm as the opening attack for a form of iriminage, and starts running in a circle around me before I have moved a muscle; he would have run in circles around me all day like a pony around a mill, because "uke is supposed to run forward" ....like the uke who knows you are supposed to do ikkyo and turns his back on you immediately after attacking....from a martial point of view, absurd, and it teaches neither uke nor nage anything meaningful.
Somebody actually did that to me once. It is soooo annoying.
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Old 07-19-2014, 04:25 PM   #69
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Re: Irimi Nage

Quote:
Robin Boyd wrote: View Post
Somebody actually did that to me once. It is soooo annoying.
It actually made me laugh out loud....but yeah....

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Old 07-20-2014, 05:12 AM   #70
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Re: Irimi Nage

Quote:
Konstantinus Darwin wrote: View Post
When I saw that clip again, he grabbed the side of neck and the upper arm of uke, then just kaiten around, hence, producing the trademarked "faceplant", then waiting for uke to recover then step forward then cut to the corners where no footings are present.

Sounds so simple, maybe I will try this next time in dojo. I think to make uke make an extra step to our hip, we need to step forward or backward (3:26).

But I think, ultimately, the uke at least must know the "choreography", that is: to keep running forward, nage will lead uke in circle and throw.

Why? what do you think?
Dear Konstantinus,
Generally speaking most instructors select their uke who have acted as uke for a long time.Tori gets to know how uke will respond and uke almost like a conditioned reflex will move around tori[in the rotational method of irimi nage ] almost like clockwork.Uke also usually being a junior hardly wants the senior to look bad or to make the irimi nage hard work for tori.
I have on many occasions often been in situations whereby uke sometimes falls down without
any reason.Uke should not simply bite the dust .Uke should endeavour to try and regain/maintain his /her posture throughout the movement.As it happens I am not too fond of the irimi /tenkan method of irimi nage.The irimi tenkan version looks good[tori leading /spinning the uke around followed by a high flyying ukemi from uke ] but I much prefer a simpler more direct irimi nage than usual demoed by certain instructors.Hence my earlier statement about compliant uke.`i have a lot of footage of the basic taisabaki used in irimi nage and the irimi nage itself, however I do noot know how to upload this material to this forum. Cheers , joe.
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Old 07-20-2014, 06:28 AM   #71
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Re: Irimi Nage

I always found the ura version (which is what we are talking about here) was easier to perform if uke was doing his best to recover. Looks better, feels better - makes a better show.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 07-20-2014, 07:11 AM   #72
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Re: Irimi Nage

Quote:
Peter Rehse wrote: View Post
I always found the ura version (which is what we are talking about here) was easier to perform if uke was doing his best to recover. Looks better, feels better - makes a better show.
Dear Peter,
Surely the criteria should be whether the irimi nage is proficient andc onforms to aiki principles rather than whether it looks good, feels better[for uke /tori?and a better? show etc?cheers, Joe,
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Old 07-20-2014, 07:18 AM   #73
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Re: Irimi Nage

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Peter,
Surely the criteria should be whether the irimi nage is proficient andc onforms to aiki principles rather than whether it looks good, feels better[for uke /tori?and a better? show etc?cheers, Joe,
Of course - I was merely commenting on how an overly compliant uke (ie. the fall down type) is ultimately self defeating (that may be a pun). You did mention "look" in your post.

By the way I also agree that a more direct irimi nage is ultimately more satisfying all round.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 07-20-2014, 10:26 AM   #74
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Re: Irimi Nage

found some pics when typing iriminage in google image search (obviously not my pics)




the second pic, 4th step "kaiten" I don't know there's that step. Is it common? I think it's for forcing uke to take additional step as his head is "carried" from a body rotation of nage?

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Konstantinus,
Generally speaking most instructors select their uke who have acted as uke for a long time.Tori gets to know how uke will respond and uke almost like a conditioned reflex will move around tori[in the rotational method of irimi nage ] almost like clockwork.Uke also usually being a junior hardly wants the senior to look bad or to make the irimi nage hard work for tori.
I have on many occasions often been in situations whereby uke sometimes falls down without
any reason.Uke should not simply bite the dust .Uke should endeavour to try and regain/maintain his /her posture throughout the movement.As it happens I am not too fond of the irimi /tenkan method of irimi nage.The irimi tenkan version looks good[tori leading /spinning the uke around followed by a high flyying ukemi from uke ] but I much prefer a simpler more direct irimi nage than usual demoed by certain instructors.Hence my earlier statement about compliant uke.`i have a lot of footage of the basic taisabaki used in irimi nage and the irimi nage itself, however I do noot know how to upload this material to this forum. Cheers , joe.
Dear Joe,
One of my senpai asked my sensei that also, because my senpai is very rigid and always put up quite a resistance when acting as uke. My sensei explained that aikido, is way of harmony, so during training, the uke should not give a level of resistance to a point of nage can't take uke's balance at all (also because this senpai knowing the concept of particular technique already, hence he know how to not his balance be taken). Uke and nage should be cooperative to train the flow of ki and mushin (mind of no mind). Well, regarding other techniques (shihonage, ikkyo, nikkyo, etc) you can get pretty much the same result even to a newbie. But regarding the ura iriminage/with faceplant, now that's hard to execute, and if we apply it to newbie, that's dangerous totally and maybe can make you look like a fool. So yeah, maybe our class is divided for those who believes in the choreography and those who don't. But personally, I think you have to know what aiki principles can be applied to what judging from this "ki" stuff (I myself can't feel it (yet)), and the movement of opponents. Not like, "I want to iriminage him no matter what!".

Because it's funny, you throw people elegantly left and right, all of them black belts, then suddenly, one white belt comes along in randori and you look like "???!!?" because uke doesn't take the correct step lol. I don't know, what about people in your dojo?

about the video, maybe you can try posting it on youtube if you don't mind? Then post the link here for us to see. Cheers!
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Old 07-20-2014, 12:48 PM   #75
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Re: Irimi Nage

Quote:
Konstantinus Darwin wrote: View Post
One of my senpai asked my sensei that also, because my senpai is very rigid and always put up quite a resistance when acting as uke. My sensei explained that aikido, is way of harmony, so during training, the uke should not give a level of resistance to a point of nage can't take uke's balance at all (also because this senpai knowing the concept of particular technique already, hence he know how to not his balance be taken).

Because it's funny, you throw people elegantly left and right, all of them black belts, then suddenly, one white belt comes along in randori and you look like "???!!?" because uke doesn't take the correct step lol. I don't know, what about people in your dojo?
a few issues would like to point out. being sempai, assuming your skill is higher than the others, meaning you are in a teaching position when you are uke. the good way to train those lower than you in skills is to give them just enough resistance for them to work "through" the puzzle, but not to the point of completely frustrated which accomplished little other than raising frustration level and make you look like an ass. then there is resistance and there is stupidity. being stiff and turning your back on someone that can inflict harm on you from behind is stupid. something to think about, when someone is in your dead corner, what are your options? one of the options will get uke into the "face plant" situation, other options will not.

one of my sensei told me that you need to question everything, every assumption, every assertion, even past experiences, even from experts. asking why and figuring out the answers. don't just blindly copy things. you have to think about these stuffs.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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