Interesting Video: San Shou Tuishou with Chen Ziqiang

Interesting video.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gb_CC...ayer_embedded#!

Opinions?

Oh my! Opinions?
Is it really safe to talk about people in videos?
Okay, the Chen guy is unimpressive. Bully for him for trying.
Lets see,
1. The kids entered so many times and CZQ had to empty step (positional change without meaning) all over the place through the video.
2. Nary a clean throw by him anywhere.
3. He showed lots of failed attempts while seriously trying to enter.
4. He got caught in several places as well.
5. Overall he looks rather tight, and he obviously does not know how to fight in that venue-the many failures are evidence of that
6. Add to that- the fact that the kids in the vid were terrible as well and offered no real pressure to start with.
7. His position changes left many openings that the kids did not know how to take advantage of. I can only imagine if strikes, kicks and an MMA format were to be the venue.

Hopefully more and more taiji guys and DR guys!!! , will take their stuff out on the road and go play with people who both know how to fight, and have a vested interest in seeing them undone. Winning and more importantly losing, is a great learning tool to grow past, push hands or one step kata.

Dan

Dan Harden wrote: The Chen guy is unimpressive. The kids entered so many times and CZQ had to empty step (positional change without meaning) all over the place through the video. Nary a clean throw by him anywhere and he showed lots of failed attempts while seriously trying to enter. He also got caught in several places as well. Overall he looks rather tight, and he obviously does not know how to fight in that venue-the many failures are evidence of that. I can only imagine if strikes, kicks and an MMA format were to be the venue. Hopefully more and more taiji guys and DR guys!!! , will take their stuff out on the road and go play with people who both know how to fight, and have a vested interest in seeing them undone. Winning and more importantly losing, is a great learning tool to grow past, push hands or one step kata, . Dan

Dear Dan ,
I think the instructors guys were hardly trying to throw him,The instructor himself used a lot of small foot throws which quite frankly anybody with a half decent posture would have avoided.Same with the arm entanglements, sorry I did not think them too efficient.I saw no real attempt at foot sweeps or leg throws anywhere coming from the pupil.

Dear Joe
His body positioning and changes says it all, whether he followed through or not is not an issue. Managing the kids efforts should have been child's play with many opportunities for clear and clean counters. He just isn't up to what I have seen from Chen guys. Compare him to Chen Bing or LCD; he's not as loose and snapping, he doesn't nuetralize like he should and he is far less decisive in his actions.

I'm not arm chair quaterbacking, I do stuff like this all the time with better pressure than that being offered. Being mindful that grappling and fighting is dirty and rarely clean, there is much that is revealed in the attempts. I am not sure you have a case for their just playing and that being a reason for the poor exchanges-thats even more reason for cleaner moves. IOW, with such a supposed power and skill differential things should have been...lets just say...clearer and cleaner than that. YMMV.
Cheers
Dan

Dan Harden wrote: Okay, the Chen guy is unimpressive.

Why am I not surprised by this comment? Let's see some video, Dan. Ziqiang is only doing push-hands.... in a very limited format. He's being very careful not to do anything to hurt anyone. From that we get the observation that he is, like everyone else in the world, not quite up to the level of The One, The reborn Chinese Warlord?

Mike Sigman

Mike, Those were my thoughts too.....They are only practicing with what appears to be pretty limited rules. My unexperienced eye seemed to notice some similarity of movement to Akuzawa.

Certainly not full fledged San Shou.....

Best, Mark

Mark Mueller wrote: Mike, Those were my thoughts too.....They are only practicing with what appears to be pretty limited rules. My unexperienced eye seemed to notice some similarity of movement to Akuzawa.

Well, don't forget that I just recently posted a video with Chen Ziqiang competing in actual San Shou Dao (aka Sanda) in post #18 of the 'training/sparring' thread. CZQ is in the first match starting @ 2:20. These guys are wearing armor but watch the expression on his opponent's face when Ziqiang hits. And then understand that he is still pulling his punches and techniques because the stuff is also "limited format" with strict rules. That BS-level push-hands video in the OP of this thread has zero to do with "San Shou" and should be viewed for what it is: grabass.

http://bugu.cntv.cn/sports/other/wul...0/101111.shtml

I'm no fan of Ziqiang's but I haven't heard of anyone beat him, although I've heard of a few people that disparage him without really having the brass to face him . He does come to the U.S. I suspect we need to have a few of the bs-artists go to him and 'ask for a lesson'. I.e., make the challenge first and do the talking later.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

BTW, here's an article about Chen Ziqiang:

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/magazi...hp?article=681

I'm going to have fun passing the word to him that he needs to play with people that know how to fight. His fights are on record against some actual 'name' people; let's see the fight records of those critical of him.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Mike Sigman wrote: His fights are on record against some actual 'name' people

Where?

Mike Sigman wrote: BTW, here's an article about Chen Ziqiang: http://www.kungfumagazine.com/magazi...hp?article=681 I'm going to have fun passing the word to him that he needs to play with people that know how to fight. His fights are on record against some actual 'name' people; let's see the fight records of those critical of him. FWIW Mike Sigman

Interesting article Mike. Thanks for posting. I thought his explanation of spliting energies was interesting.

Mark Mueller wrote: They are only practicing with what appears to be pretty limited rules. My unexperienced eye seemed to notice some similarity of movement to Akuzawa. Certainly not full fledged San Shou.....

Agreed . . . something like free style push-hands, primarily stand-up grappling, sweeps and hooks but no kicking, shoulder kao but no fists or elbows.

I didn't see a lot in CZQ's own movement that reminded me of Akuzawa, but studying it again with a focus on the partner/opponent's movement and responses, I saw a number of moments that reminded me of the effect Akuzawa has, taking sharp and forcible control of the center . . . 7:35 is one example.

Eric Joyce wrote: Interesting article Mike. Thanks for posting. I thought his explanation of spliting energies was interesting.

I liked this part:

"Pushing hands," he says, "was designed to practice one's skill and taiji strategy. This involves learning both attacking and defending skills. Most beginners just want to attack, however, because attacking is easier, and it takes less skill. Defending is always much harder to learn how to master. But against another trained martial artist, one's ability to defend is what will determine the outcome of the fight. So people should practice more learning how to dissolve an opponent's energy than think about attacking."

I ask Chen Ziqiang what he concentrates on when he is pushing hands with someone. He says, "I completely forget about the form. I only concentrate on where my opponent's energy is, and my position in relationship to that energy. That tells me where I have to be, or move to, in order to control the situation. When I am no longer feeling threatened by my opponent's energy, I then determine what application is best to utilize."

I ask Chen Ziqiang what he means by forgetting the form. He says, "Each movement in the form incorporates many different energies. Pulling, pushing, turning, deflecting, dissolving, cranking, squeezing, pounding, and many more. In pushing hands, the situation is constantly changing, so you can never use a movement just like it is done in the form. You have to be able to adjust instantly to any new incoming force, so you are constantly changing your position in relationship with your opponent.

People have seen these clips of Chen Bing, filmed in June 2008, before, but I thought they made for interesting comparisons with his younger cousin Chen Ziqiang:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWBBhVLbDgk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIc5N...1&feature=fvwp

Thomas Campbell wrote: Where?

Yes, Who? Where? It is always interesting to see who considers what to be "good." I would like to see something with a higher level of skill displayed than what everyone seems to agree was a B.S. display. His defensive counters and entries were less than stellar.

After seeing other videos of CZQ with his students on that link, it would be interesting to see a higher level of skilled attack for him to defend against, and something more convincing than that display. If he is supposedly that good and just sort of cooperating-it might explain some things, but it still doesn't explain others. He still looks tight to me- compared to other Chen guys.

On one of those other linked clips the kid attacks with an O soto gari and breaks CZQ's posture sideways and he is arm dragged forward and CZQ has to step twice to recover. Hard to understand how that is to be considered "good" against low level pressure. Compare that to Chen Bing's video's in #1 and #2. They are an interesting comparison; much looser, more definitive, and very clear, all while grappling with an experienced grappler. You didn't see a lot of compromised dead position changes, foot placements and empty moves, and the grappler himself looked more capable and offered better positioning in his attacks.

Dan

Reading that magazine article, it was interesting to note that Chen Ziqiang was a well-known fighter and competitor with recorded public recognition before he became a judge of others. That's not always the case in the martial-arts world.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

[[By the way, Ziqiang is pronounced sort of like "Tsur Chahng"]]

Mike Sigman wrote: Reading that magazine article, it was interesting to note that Chen Ziqiang was a well-known fighter and competitor with recorded public recognition before he became a judge of others. That's not always the case in the martial-arts world. FWIW Mike Sigman [[By the way, Ziqiang is pronounced sort of like "Tsur Chahng"]]

Yes I heard that of some other big name ICMA guys as well...who frankly were a profound disappointment. Some were great, others were just good jujutsu guys; no more, no less. I had felt better pressure from good collegiate wrestlers and MMA guys.
How much you want to bet CZQ thinks that video sucked as well and would agree with me? But you can go ahead and be "impressed" by that display for the both of us.

Dan

Dan Harden wrote: Yes I heard that of some other big name ICMA guys as well...who frankly were a profound disappointment.

What "big names" were a profound disappointment, Dan? From what you've written about your own skills (while trivializing others'), AFAIK the only real Chinese 'name' you've encountered is Wang Hai Jun, who is a disciple of Chen ZhengLei's and has won tournaments, etc. I've heard you trivialize his skills publicly, so I guess maybe he was a 'disappointment' to you. Would you suggest that he thinks your skills are high level, to look at the other side of the coin?

BTW, I think you somehow confuse various "people who give workshops, teach, or claim lineage" as somehow being known experts. That's not really the way it's looked at in China; there are tons of people who fall into that category.

So you'd say that Wang Hai Jun is a disappointment, then? And Chen Ziqiang is 'unimpressive'. Etc., etc., every time. Is there *anyone* who approaches you in skill and knowledge or is it fruitless to look for such a person?

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Mike Sigman wrote: What "big names" were a profound disappointment, Dan? From what you've written about your own skills (while trivializing others'), AFAIK the only real Chinese 'name' you've encountered is Wang Hai Jun, who is a disciple of Chen ZhengLei's and has won tournaments, etc. I've heard you trivialize his skills publicly, so I guess maybe he was a 'disappointment' to you. Would you suggest that he thinks your skills are high level, to look at the other side of the coin? BTW, I think you somehow confuse various "people who give workshops, teach, or claim lineage" as somehow being known experts. That's not really the way it's looked at in China; there are tons of people who fall into that category. So you'd say that Wang Hai Jun is a disappointment, then? And Chen Ziqiang is 'unimpressive'. Etc., etc., every time. Is there *anyone* who approaches you in skill and knowledge or is it fruitless to look for such a person? Regards, Mike Sigman

Your misquotes, baiting and putting words in my mouth are meaningless to me. If you have anything to add to the thread please do so. We already know your opinion of my opinions; put it in one of your infamous P.M.'s. IOW, state something meaningful about the video or stay out of it.
1. You don't think he's tight for a Chen guy?
That would explain some of our disagreements on the quality of IP/ aiki in actual use.
2. You think his movements (in such a low pressured environment) were good...
That is very interesting to me as well and would explain even more of our contentions about movement and IP/.aiki.
3.I outlined several postural failures, very poor throw attempts (among some good ones) various empty positional movements and in a linked video a pressured loss of balance. Something that you apparently don't or can't see and are at a loss to explain, other than to explain it away.

Okay, that's fine. We disagree.
Lets- "archive it" and move on to on topic discussion. No one needs the drama.
Dan

Dan Harden wrote: 1. You don't think he's tight for a Chen guy? That would explain some of our disagreements on the quality of IP/ aiki in actual use. 2. You think his movements (in such a low pressured environment) were good... That is very interesting to me as well and would explain even more of our contentions about movement and IP/.aiki. 3.I outlined several postural failures, very poor throw attempts (among some good ones) various empty positional movements and in a linked video a pressured loss of balance. Something that you apparently don't or can't see and are at a loss to explain, other than to explain it away. Okay, that's fine. We disagree.

Me, I'd have just shrugged and said something like "I dunno... looks like he was just fooling around with some guys good-naturedly, so I can't tell much".

I've posted (twice) his encounter an Sanda (again with limited rules, so I'm smart enough to note the circumstances before I start critiquing anyone). It's pretty obvious that Chen Ziqiang is very crisp and precise and powerful.... but that's my opinion and of course you may see differently. Post your opinion of the competition and I'll pass it on to the right people.

BTW... and I've said this before... the Chinese tend to be pretty smart. They never show their whole hand and, since many of them had to be very cagey in order to survive the Cultural Revolution, they know how to schmooze someone who has, as they call it, "a bad heart". It's that Cultural Revolution fact, the fact that they know how to slip under the radar, that more people should pay attention to. The bucks with the biggest horns aren't the ones who eat the corn out in the middle of the field.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Mike
as usual you do not know what you are talking about regarding Wan Hai Jun and Dan Harden. Go see for your self, get off the chair and experience Dan.

stan

Stan Baker wrote: Mike as usual you do not know what you are talking about regarding Wan Hai Jun and Dan Harden. Go see for your self, get off the chair and experience Dan. stan

Heck, Stan.... I know a lot more than you think, not only about Dan in that regard, but about you. Instead of your constant sychophantic posts about Dan, why don't you enlighten us with your understanding of the topic of "internal strength"? As I understand it, Dan refers to you as part of the "senior" ICMA instructors that he talks about. I'm not even sure why someone as senior as you isn't out there knockin' 'em dead. Go for it, Stan. Show us what you know.


Regards,

Mike Sigman

Mike Sigman wrote: Well, don't forget that I just recently posted a video with Chen Ziqiang competing in actual San Shou Dao (aka Sanda) in post #18 of the 'training/sparring' thread. CZQ is in the first match starting @ 2:20. These guys are wearing armor but watch the expression on his opponent's face when Ziqiang hits. And then understand that he is still pulling his punches and techniques because the stuff is also "limited format" with strict rules. That BS-level push-hands video in the OP of this thread has zero to do with "San Shou" and should be viewed for what it is: grabass. Mike Sigman

The ruleset in Wulin Da Hui (the linked tv show) does not allow for striking to the face. It is not the same as sanda/san shou as typically understood.
http://www.iwuf.org/news_video_1.asp?id=404

Tim

"Fooling around good naturedly" is understandable and fair, but it doesn't diminish your performance and ability to withstand pressure. The power differential is throughout and should enhance it. If you don't want to complete a throw you stop, it doesn't account for poor attempts and balance loss.
I continue to read dialogue "around" the topic, or the posters themselves without you offering anything substantial-good or bad- constructive or even informative about the movement shown and the martial veracity.

The other video I was talking about
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6g4Jb...eature=related

Particularly 15 seconds in. The guy does a pretty amateurish entry and throw attempt but it is "good" enough to arm drag and force a postion change to retain central equilibrium in CZQ. IME, if this is "just play," or "fooling around" then the pressure and the power differential would be such that things like this just wouldn't happen.

Anyone want to state that
a) that was even a decent throw attempt?
b) that was a powerful defense?
While there are other good things to be sure, it is this inconsistency that is perplexing in such a low level encounter.

The other clip
http://bugu.cntv.cn/sports/other/wul...0/101111.shtml

From various people I have heard from in China, many of those venues are intentionally "set up" and are for entertainment purposes similar to our old boxing venues. I think it is clear the other guy was outclassed. The guy in the red doesn't even make an attempt to defend himself!! Watch him move in and drop his hands over and over. It does show CZQ using more substantial skills at speed, but against what though?
Oh well. I think there is a clear difference between him and say,-Chen Bing in a western venue.
Dan

Mike Sigman wrote: Heck, Stan.... I know a lot more than you think, not only about Dan in that regard, but about you. Instead of your constant sychophantic posts about Dan, why don't you enlighten us with your understanding of the topic of "internal strength"? As I understand it, Dan refers to you as part of the "senior" ICMA instructors that he talks about. I'm not even sure why someone as senior as you isn't out there knockin' 'em dead. Go for it, Stan. Show us what you know. Regards, Mike Sigman

Absolute rubbish and baiting.
More off-topic personal attacks for the umpteenth time from Mike Sigman.

Dan

Tim Fong wrote: The ruleset in Wulin Da Hui (the linked tv show) does not allow for striking to the face. It is not the same as sanda/san shou as typically understood. http://www.iwuf.org/news_video_1.asp?id=404 Tim

Ah........ so that limiting stricture would explain some of the disparities about why the competition did too much "wrestling", as one of my Chinese friends termed it? Thanks. I agree. That's sort of what I've tried to say about limited engagements.

I think a number of people should understand that 'competitions' take on different forms. In my experience in "push-hands", for example, I've run into a number of people who insisted that the strictures basically incorporate the aggressive BS that they did while outlawing any logical and telling replies of the same sort.

People who judge restricted engagements should be smart enough to note those possibilities before starting to disparage others' skills. In the same way, I tend to watch Nage in order to see his body movements rather than hinge my whole opinion upon the limited aspects of an engagement. Often I simply say "I can't tell because the 'dive-bunny' aspect clouds what's really going on".

FWIW

Mike Sigman