Aiki-Otoshi

...for a very petite woman such as I am, has become the new bane of my Aiki-existence.

I know that without a doubt there has to be a (relatively) physical force/"effortless" way of doing this (I've even had a couple of instances where it felt all right --- without much luck replicating it), but aside from practicing this ad nauseum (which I'm currently doing) I am welcoming input from those here who are physically in a similar position with this technique. I'm doing it from Ushiro Ryokatatedori for my Nikyu test.

Please and thank-you!

If I'm thinking of the same technique as you, step deeply behind UKE while leading his/her momentum past you. Don't lift the legs, but sweep them.

Hope this helps.

Aiki otoshi (if it's the same as we practice it) is one of the more effortless techniques to achieve, I'm a bigger guy, but I've taught children to do it to full grown men. The trick is to make them ride on your hip/thigh. Don't lift them, that's difficult. Instead shear their upper and lower body in two parts with your hip, then slide your leg (bent like sitting on a chair for stability) then use your upper body to turn them over your leg, the weight should be taken on your thigh and not in your back or arms, they ride your leg, you don't throw them over it.

Hope it helps.
-Chris Hein

Hope it helps.
-Chris Hein

If you follow the link below, there is a slide show of Kanai Sensei doing "aiki otoshi". Is this the technique to which you refer?

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...%3D %26sa%3DN
Thanks,
Ron

Ron Tisdale wrote: If you follow the link below, there is a slide show of Kanai Sensei doing "aiki otoshi". Is this the technique to which you refer? http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...%3D %26sa%3DN Thanks, Ron

very nice technique, isn't it

Ron Tisdale wrote: If you follow the link below, there is a slide show of Kanai Sensei doing "aiki otoshi". Is this the technique to which you refer? http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...%3D %26sa%3DN Thanks, Ron

Hai, hai. Arigato!

Does anyone know why it's aiki-otoshi instead of sukui-nage?

Yes, it is very nice technique. I actually don't remember seeing this done in the Yoshinkan, but I have seen it in Daito ryu (either in nikkajo or the goshin no yo te, I can't remember which). I do remember Kondo Sensei stressing that the closer you are to the feet when you lift, the easier it is to do the throw, and that's what seemed to work for me. Kanai Sensei seems to lift at the hip and the thigh. When we practiced lifting from the feet, something about uke being top heavy made them much lighter when lifting from their calf / ankle region. But I certainly love the way Kanai Sensei is able to throw uke out.

I can't say what the difference would be between this and the judo throw. I looked up judo examples and the basic principles seem to be similar, except for the attack.
Best,
Ron

"Does anyone know why it's aiki-otoshi instead of sukui-nage?"

I was thinking sukui-nage too, but that could just be the fact that I've trained much more jiu jitsu than aikido. Anyway, as previous posters have said, the trick to this is unbalancing them over your thigh, having stepped in *really* deep. They should be starting to fall back over your leg already by the time you start moving their legs with your arms; the "lift"/sweep gets that nice rotation so they land behind you, but you're not really taking their weight.

Now here's the next question, from a fellow petite woman: does anyone have any good tips for doing this throw on nervous ukes who cling to your back like a limpet and thus pull you over with them? (I'm fairly guilty of this myself, but I'm light, so most of my nages can just stand there while I slide...)

Ron,

In DTR it is part of the Nikajo series. This technique is also present in Nihon Goshin Aikido, it is called the Scoop Throw. When the technique is done on this style one arm rides up under one arm first, then the legs are attacked or "scooped".

See you in October (I hope)
Jose Garrido

Hey Jose,

Good to hear from you! Yeah, I remembered training this, but couldn't remember what catalog it came from. Does Nihon Goshin scoop at the thighs, or the ankles?

Looking forward to October,
Ron

Now here's the next question, from a fellow petite woman: does anyone have any good tips for doing this throw on nervous ukes who cling to your back like a limpet and thus pull you over with them? (I'm fairly guilty of this myself, but I'm light, so most of my nages can just stand there while I slide...)

I think Jose could give better advice than I, but I would try the scoop at the ankles version. If you enter in deeply like you are really attacking the hips, then scoop at the ankles, I don't think uke will be able to get a good grip on you to bring you down.

Best,
Ron

Ignatius Teo wrote: Does anyone know why it's aiki-otoshi instead of sukui-nage?

That is the name that I have heard associated with this technique. I think that this technique has it's roots in jujitsu and sukui-nage is the word that they use.

You might be going for the legs too soon.
Try to do a koyu nage/sokumen irimi nage from the same attack first. (description below) Use this to unbalace uke, then enter with the hips, then go for the legs, ankles whatever.
Rather than throwing uke by his legs, let him fall over your hip/leg while you control his legs.
It's the same as with koshi nage:if there's too much of a size difference, there's no point in trying to actually throw uke.

Description:
Tori stands in left hanmi.
Uke takes left wrist, goes around back, takes your right wrist.
Tori steps forward with right foot and extends arms forward.
Uke ends up at the fornt right side of tori.
(That what you do for practically every technique.)
Now tori enters with his right foot at the back side of uke, arms extended, right arm at head height, left arm at stomach height.
Et voilà!

Fiona Darbyshire wrote: Now here's the next question, from a fellow petite woman: does anyone have any good tips for doing this throw on nervous ukes who cling to your back like a limpet and thus pull you over with them? (I'm fairly guilty of this myself, but I'm light, so most of my nages can just stand there while I slide...)

Very hard to do correct on a "clingy" uke that is not willing to take the fall. You want to do the technique but also don't want to hurt your partner. You might try to work on breaking their grip a bit as they move around you. If you can avoid having them get a solid grip from the start, they won't be able to cling later in the technique.
One way to deal with it on the street would be to use your elbow to deliver a strike to the soloplexes (sorry for the spelling!) or ribs while falling on top of them as they hit the ground. This really hurts and I wouldn't try it in class unless you have a willing party to try it out on and they know it's coming!!
Another way to deal with it on the street is to simply make sure that their head lands on the ground first as you fall down on them.... they will most likely let go at that point.

Good luck!

Fiona Darbyshire wrote: Now here's the next question, from a fellow petite woman: does anyone have any good tips for doing this throw on nervous ukes who cling to your back like a limpet and thus pull you over with them? (I'm fairly guilty of this myself, but I'm light, so most of my nages can just stand there while I slide...)

If you throw him straight back then there is a chance he can pull you down. If you throw in a circular motion on a horizontal plane at the same time you do the "lift" on the knees or even the ankles, then he will spin around the axis of your body and then fall behind you. and even his arm/hand on your shoulder will slide off. As long as he is falling straight back, the arm near you, on your shoulder, will be tempted to grab you.

I like that description Raul, thanks!

Best,
Ron

Ron,

In NGA the attack point is just above the ankle. This give great leverage, so this would be real good for a smaller person.

Jose'

In my dojo, we hold onto uke's knees. Like this photo:

http://honkadori.radek.sk/image/techniky/aikiotoshi.gif

Jamie, I am also a small woman (5 feet even) and have difficulties with this throw. We just did it the other day, actually. I was in a group of three: little me, a stocky fireplug ikkyu, and a tall, lanky 15 year old boy. Talk about a challenge! This time I just laughed. A lot. Especially when I ended up falling as nage.

Sensei always points out that we aren't trying to pick up uke. You have already taken their balance when you move in with your hips. Now you just sweep them over your leg.

Easy for a strong, tall 4th dan to say. <grin>

I have improved though, I think, so there is hope!

I love this throw - I usually do it to "Mighty Joe Young" at our school when he resists with upper body; I step in, grab and 'sit/fall down and take him with'. The power comes from 'falling' behind uke. Try the sacrifice way (keep your hand flat whenever someone's spine impacts your hand and the mat) a few times, then 'fall' into the deep step, but don't sit down.

Works a lot of the time....or, they punch/choke the hell out of you.

David

Well, sukui-nage IS scooping throw. I've found a small circle rotation around uke's center with the shoulders, and thighs to be particularly effective. What I'd like to know is why it's called aiki-otoshi in aikido. What is technically different that makes it an aiki drop as opposed to a scooping throw?

Now here's the next question, from a fellow petite woman: does anyone have any good tips for doing this throw on nervous ukes who cling to your back like a limpet and thus pull you over with them? (I'm fairly guilty of this myself, but I'm light, so most of my nages can just stand there while I slide...)

You mean that's not how were supposed to take the ukemi? I thought the idea was to try and go for a piggy back ride.

But seriously, it helps me if it don't try to take them over my knee but let them fall in front of you instead, especially if they are afraid to go backwards over someone's knee, like me. And doing aiki-nage this way is a lot easier to do on the bigger people.

This thread is the first time I've heard the term sukuinage, I've always been taught this as aikiotoshi. One of my fav techniques, used to scare the bejeezers out of some of the Japanese when I was in Tokyo because being 6' 2" I could throw them quite away I was very kind though .

The trick here, as has been previously mentioned, is to enter deep behind uke, whilst at the same time using your "unbendable arm" to enter across the front of them just above waist height. When you enter deep, you should be sinking to lower your center below uke, the use of your arm aids this considerably. Once you've entered, make sure that you have a good posture, uke should by this time actually be sitting on your leg/ knee. This way, you are not lifting his body weight, only taking his legs off the floor. I usually "scoop" them up around the knees from here, and then as Raul said rotate at the hips throwing them in a circular motion on a horizontal plane. I find this works well for me.

rgds
Bryan

See Bryan, if you're scooping, then it's a scooping throw, isn't it? How does it become an aiki-drop?

Ignatius Teo wrote: See Bryan, if you're scooping, then it's a scooping throw, isn't it? How does it become an aiki-drop?

Don't have an answer for you Ignatius, can only talk from what I've been taught. Like I said, I've never heard the term sukuinage before today, even in class in Japan it was referred to as Aikiotoshi.

You'll notice though I quoted "scoop", mainly because it's the word everyone else was using, personally I "lift" from the knees and throw away, you could just as easily "lift" from the knees and drop uke straight back making it a drop rather than a throw.

I don't allay to be doing this correctly, just what works for me

rgds
Bryan