Ukemi and Kokyu

Some questions that come to mind when watching the film clips of Mifune Kyuzo -- there were a lot of times when Mifune's opponent tried to throw him, but succeeded only in getting Mifune off the floor. No matter what the guy did, even when Mifune was off the ground, the opponent could not maneuver him into a throw. Was Mifune doing something with his weight, even when not connected in the ground? Was he using tori's body as ground?

Why couldn't anyone throw Mifune?

I just wanted to toss in the idea, once again, that while I've had a fairly active career of "fightin' and wrasslin'" and I've unfortunately got a few court documents to prove it, this focus on fighting, etc., is not the only purpose to learning these skills.

As Shioda and Ueshiba both indicated, the reason to learn these skills is ultimately as an investment toward massively better quality of life as you get older. I think the jin/kokyu things are cool and are great motivators, but the health and strength things are, IMO, the big draw that everyone should be focusing on as the important goal... everything else (like wrasslin') is a nice secondary goal.

Take Kevin Levitt's comments, for example. He's proud of being able to "roll" with the young guys and submit them. That's cool. Can he still do it in 20 years? I'll bet not, not against anyone who is mediocrely trained in submission grappling. Will that mean therefore that if Kevin tries to teach grappling when he's 65 that it's a bogus art because he can't really demonstrate it tellingly himself? That seems to be his implication to a lot of the Ki things, as I read him.

Let's say that Kevin is a good grappler and that Dan is, too. Roughly even in technique and experience, although Dan uses jin/kokyu to some extent. What I'd bet is that when they are both 65-70 years old, Dan will be markedly more powerful than Kevin is because Dan will have been training these strength/health-augmentation skills for 20-30 years and Kevin will not have. I make that be easily, because I've actually seen this happen.

So while I enjoy the focus on martial effectiveness, I think it should be stressed that these "ki" skills are generally considered "strength and health" that, yes, helps martially, but they help strength and health even more.

YMMV

Mike

Cady Goldfield wrote: Hope this doesn't sound ridiculous, or that it's unrelated to this discussion but... Watching the film clips of Mifune Kyuzo, there were a lot of times when Mifune's opponent tried to throw him, but succeeded only in getting Mifune off the floor. No matter what the guy did, even when Mifune was off the ground, the opponent could not maneuver him into a throw. Was Mifune doing something with his weight, even when not connected in the ground? Was he using tori's body as ground? Why couldn't anyone throw Mifune?

I'd be interested to see if you know the answer, Cady. Hmmmm... although I did post how it's done last year on this forum. If you do know the answer, then you might enjoy the Shioda video (aw crap... I don't know what the name is; the cover is completely in Japanese. Sorry). Oh well.

Mike

Yes. And, when did you post that post? I didn't sign on to AikiWeb until Oct 2006.

Cady Goldfield wrote: Yes. And, when did you post that post? I didn't sign on to AikiWeb until Oct 2006.

I don't remember when I did it. It was one of those posts where I figured most people wouldn't get it, but one or two might.

Mike

Mike wrote:

Let's say that Kevin is a good grappler and that Dan is, too. Roughly even in technique and experience, although Dan uses jin/kokyu to some extent. What I'd bet is that when they are both 65-70 years old, Dan will be markedly more powerful than Kevin is because Dan will have been training these strength/health-augmentation skills for 20-30 years and Kevin will not have. I make that be easily, because I've actually seen this happen.

assuming that what Dan is actually doing is any different than what I am doing. I do not argue that a person that can move more correctly than another will have the advantage over physical strength.

We cannot really discuss this or debate it any further until I train with you or Dan so we can compare semantics.

Kevin Leavitt wrote: Mike wrote: assuming that what Dan is actually doing is any different than what I am doing. I do not argue that a person that can move more correctly than another will have the advantage over physical strength. We cannot really discuss this or debate it any further until I train with you or Dan so we can compare semantics.

As I've suggested for a matter of a couple of years now, Kevin, there are people who visit Germany, etc., who are far more skilled than I am or Dan is (if I may be so bold). I think the real problem is the one that you state over and over again, by implication.... you cannot imagine a tangent to strength that you already know, so you tend to dismiss it. In fact, I think that's actually the prevailing attitude that has helped so much in slowing western Aikido and other Asian offshoot-arts.... everyone is so confident in their own knowledge that they have resisted the thought that there's much they would ever need to change.

Even now, some people are working to learn these things and among those people there is still a problem to some degree in that they think it is some minor facet that they can add to their already-acceptable Aikido, Karate, Koryu, etc. I can say from experience that it takes a lot longer to learn and ingrain this stuff than is apparent.... but ego will prevent a lot of people from accepting that idea, too.

This stuff is fun to watch. It's like my own personal soap opera.

Best.

Mike