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Old 02-09-2007, 11:04 AM   #1
Mike Sigman
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Re: Dobson and Arikawa Sensei

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
First up learning kokyu is not done from taking falls.
I've watched lazily as various comments have been made over the months about ukemi and kokyu. I frankly don't see it any substantive learning relationship between the two. If nothing else, think of all the other arts that have strong kokyu skills like karate, sword, etc.... there is no necessary or compelling reason to link kokyu and ukemi, given the fact that other arts don't need to tie ukemi and kokyu together.

True, if you have kokyu skills they will affect your ukemi and your ukemi will sort of become, like everything else you do, a furtherance of your ki-skills training, but that's tangential, at best.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 02-09-2007, 05:59 PM   #2
eyrie
 
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Re: Ukemi and Kokyu

I think it depends on what people's definition of ukemi is. If by ukemi you mean taking falls, then I agree... yes, that sort of ukemi has no bearing on kokyu or development of kokyu. You might "get" some, but there are other, better ways of achieving it.

However, if you mean ukemi in the true sense of the word uke (receiving [with the]) mi (body).... then it changes the entire focus of what ukemi is.

Ignatius
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Old 02-12-2007, 02:45 AM   #3
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Re: Ukemi and Kokyu

bump

Ignatius
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Old 02-12-2007, 05:04 AM   #4
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Re: Ukemi and Kokyu

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
bump
why
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Old 02-12-2007, 04:01 PM   #5
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Re: Ukemi and Kokyu

because... I can...

Ignatius
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Old 02-12-2007, 04:12 PM   #6
David Orange
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Re: Ukemi and Kokyu

I think kokyu is an important part of balancing the quickly-changing forces exerted on the body as it translates vertical momentum to horizontal momentum and returns to standing. The force of the kokyu must vary with the force on the body at different points of the fall or roll, and also with the degree of force in the throw.

However, I also think that the root comment for this thread is that the best way to experience kokyu is to take ukemi for a master.

For those of us who can still be thrown by a real master, it takes excellent falling skills, which are all that allow us to repeatedly experience such a master's technique.

So ukemi allow us to experience a master's technique and kokyu and also give us a chance to exercise and develop our own kokyu. And, having felt the master's kokyu, we can put more of that into our ukemi. Developing it thusly in ukemi, we have better kokyu to use in techniques as nage.

David

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Old 02-12-2007, 06:39 PM   #7
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Re: Ukemi and Kokyu

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
However, I also think that the root comment for this thread is that the best way to experience kokyu is to take ukemi for a master.
No. Not at all. I can have someone stand there and I'll show them how to NOT take Ukemi while I increasingly test them. And do it with them not falling once....t. So there goes that idea.
Quote:
David Orange wrote:
For those of us who can still be thrown by a real master, it takes excellent falling skills, which are all that allow us to repeatedly experience such a master's technique.
Spoken like a true believer David. Come on Bud. Think man! you know I love ya but this won't do. Do you think you need to fall down to take his technique? Tell me, does he need to fall down to take yours? Is there.....anywhere...in your head... a means or way to meet in the middle and learn to stand up and receive in a whole different way?
Quote:
David Orange wrote:
So ukemi allow us to experience a master's technique and kokyu and also give us a chance to exercise and develop our own kokyu. And, having felt the master's kokyu, we can put more of that into our ukemi. Developing it thusly in ukemi, we have better kokyu to use in techniques as nage.
David
Glad it ain't me.

Dan

Last edited by DH : 02-12-2007 at 06:48 PM.
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Old 02-12-2007, 08:24 PM   #8
David Orange
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Re: Ukemi and Kokyu

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
No. Not at all. I can have someone stand there and I'll show them how to NOT take Ukemi while I increasingly test them. And do it with them not falling once....t. So there goes that idea.
....mmmm.....but if you are trying to throw them, will they fall?

Everyone I ever worked with tried to throw me. Some I could easily resist. Some I couldn't.

I remember getting into some real bad social trouble with some people who advertised, "Aikido can be mastered without vigorous physical conditioning." I just said, "Well, your idea of what a master is must be very, very low. It takes vigorous physical conditioning to even get into the same room with a real master."

So, sure, there are plenty of people who can't throw me. But I know some real masters who can, regardless of what I do.

Quote:
good old Dan Harden wrote:
Spoken like a true believer David. Come on Bud. Think man! you know I love ya but this won't do. Do you think you need to fall down to take his technique?
There was a guy a few years back for whom I took unnecessary ukemi. I didn't want to humiliate him, so I just went limp and he still had to give it two or three shots. But I'm well known for "heavy resistance" and widely criticized for that. But when the guy can take you off your feet, you're in the air. And I don't know many people who don't fall after the become airborne.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Tell me, does he need to fall down to take yours?
Not always. But in helping me develop, all the shihans at the yoseikan (and even Mochizuki sensei, more than once) took ukemi for me from time to time. It's the only way to develop real follow-through for a throw.

Mochizuki sensei actually took ukemi for me the first time I ever met him. He was 73, I was 23. I was ikkyu and he was judan and he took ukemi for me.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Is there.....anywhere...in your head... a means or way to meet in the middle and learn to stand up and receive in a whole different way?
Well, I'm looking forward to the day when I can meet you and you can show me. I have no doubt that I can learn a lot from you and I've developed a lot of trust for you. So I can conceive ot that, yes.

However, my biggest point is that we can develop kokyu through the physical practice of rolling and falling. I teach students to release an unbroken stream of breath from the beginning of a roll until they are back on their feet again. And that breath must be of varying intensity at various points in the roll--for instance, when you're going over your shoulders: there is a tendency for the body to collapse at that point and increasing the force of the breath (using kokyu) you can maintain the structure of the body and not only not collapse, but roll more smoothly and silently.

In other words, we can learn how to use kokyu by using it as we roll--not just by feeling a master's technique. And when we learn to use kokyu to roll properly, we can transfer that ability to use it in techniques.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 02-12-2007, 09:26 PM   #9
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Re: Ukemi and Kokyu

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
However, my biggest point is that we can develop kokyu through the physical practice of rolling and falling. I teach students to release an unbroken stream of breath from the beginning of a roll until they are back on their feet again. And that breath must be of varying intensity at various points in the roll--for instance, when you're going over your shoulders: there is a tendency for the body to collapse at that point and increasing the force of the breath (using kokyu) you can maintain the structure of the body and not only not collapse, but roll more smoothly and silently.

In other words, we can learn how to use kokyu by using it as we roll--not just by feeling a master's technique. And when we learn to use kokyu to roll properly, we can transfer that ability to use it in techniques.
David, we're into another cross-purposes terminology thing here. "Kokyu", complete kokyu, does require some of the 'breath' stuff (in a way, but I don't want to get drawn into a needlessly complex discussion) in the way that you're using it. Remember my own preference for breaking "ki" down into 2 categories: the fascia/breath/pressure stuff and the mind-manipulated forces stuff. What you're talking about is an aspect of the fascia/breath/pressure stuff (although a limited area of it) and what Dan is talking about is the mind-manipulated forces part. True, you can't totally separate them, but to an extent you can certainly view them as separate aspects.

So the basic kokyu forces (the jin) are what Dan is talking about and that's different from what you're talking about.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 02-12-2007, 10:52 PM   #10
David Orange
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Re: Ukemi and Kokyu

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
What you're talking about is an aspect of the fascia/breath/pressure stuff (although a limited area of it) and what Dan is talking about is the mind-manipulated forces part. True, you can't totally separate them, but to an extent you can certainly view them as separate aspects.
As long as the separation is true and doesn't cut muscle away with the fat. The way I'm using the term requires that the mind direct the breath at the appropriate moments to empower the body to redirect the forces that are acting upn it. That's the essence of kokyu--integration of mind and body via the medium of breath.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
So the basic kokyu forces (the jin) are what Dan is talking about and that's different from what you're talking about.
I'm talking about "strength" that is not muscular alone, but muscle and ki, meeting and redirecting the forces that impinge upon the body. It is an integration.

David

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Old 02-13-2007, 05:25 PM   #11
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Re: Ukemi and Kokyu

I think I understand where David is coming from. Let me posit thusly...

If some level of leg strength, breath control, relaxed body connection and being able to receive force and move from the center are requisite for developing some kokyu skills, then the specific way in which ukemi is performed - not as a means of falling over or escape, but as a means to condition the body in this manner - could be viewed as a legitimate method for kokyu development, or at least the start of it.

Whether it is the best way to do so is quite another thing. In the absence of alternatives, we have no basis for comparison.

The other thing I would posit is that ukemi might start out as big, expansive movements when first learning, but as one gets better at receiving force, ukemi becomes less external and more internal, IOW, motion approaching stillness.

Just thinking out loud...

Last edited by eyrie : 02-13-2007 at 05:31 PM.

Ignatius
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Old 02-13-2007, 05:55 PM   #12
David Orange
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Re: Ukemi and Kokyu

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
,,,the specific way in which ukemi is performed - not as a means of falling over or escape, but as a means to condition the body in this manner - could be viewed as a legitimate method for kokyu development, or at least the start of it.
That's pretty much what I'm saying. Plus, it's using kokyu--not just developing it.

On the other hand, as aiki is the ura of kiai, ukemi is the ura of aiki waza. Mochizuki Sensei had to take pains to explain to me that ikkyo is not meant to roll the oponent away, but to plant him into the floor, face-first. Likewise most of the other techniques. They're not intended for the uke to roll out of, but ukemi can be a way to escape a technique--or even turn it into your own sutemi waza.

Of course, Dan's major point is that it's better not to be gotten in a technique to the point where it breaks the structure enough to force you to fall, but as Mike said somewhere, it's realistically a sliding scale. You can develop great abilities, but so can the other guy and there's a point where size and strength, combined with skill and technique, can overcome us.

I'd like to point out again, as well: Mochizuki Sensei was uchi deshi to Kyuzo Mifune. We can look at "Master of Judo" and see that all his ukes were trying to throw Mifune and also doing their best not to be thrown by him. As powerful as they would be to an ordinary person, they couldn't stay on their feet against Mifune.

And Mochizuki Sensei was also uchi deshi to Morihei Ueshiba, who was able to throw Tenryu on contact. So I don't think it's surprising that I should find it sometimes difficult to stay on my feet when dealing with people who had trained with him for over twenty years. I found strong ukemi skills invaluable in that situation and I had to use kokyu in those ukemi as much as in nage waza.

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote:
The other thing I would posit is that ukemi might start out as big, expansive movements when first learning, but as one gets better at receiving force, ukemi becomes less external and more internal, IOW, motion approaching stillness.
Again, I agree with that summary. However, I like to teach ukemi from very small movements in the beginning, then build them up to fairly large movements, then let the student learn through practice to make them smaller and smaller.

Best to you.

David

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Lao Tzu

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Old 02-14-2007, 06:56 AM   #13
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Re: Ukemi and Kokyu

In videos, you see a lot of rolling and falling. And I guess I can see where people would get the idea that ukemi is all about rolling and falling. But, IMO, the rolling and falling is the smallest part of ukemi. Rolling and falling is what happens when a person's ukemi skills aren't developed enough and there is only one option left -- disengage.

Coming from the role of uke, if someone's ukemi skills are developed enough, then there is no rolling or falling. You either negate the technique, take advantage of an opening, or both. (Unless one is in a teaching mode where uke is leading tori along the right path. But, teaching is a whole different world.) Only when uke finds himself/herself in a position where he/she couldn't receive the energy in a proper fashion, then uke must make a choice -- either get broken or find a last ditch effort to dissapate the energy. Rolling and falling does that to a certain point.

Why do you think there is randori? The interaction between two peers that goes back and forth until one can't receive the energy in a proper fashion and as such takes a roll or fall. When working with someone who is more skilled, then the lower skilled person tends to take more falls or rolls. Why? Because their ukemi skills aren't developed enough. If the skill level is high enough in both, you might not have much movement between the two players, but there certainly is a lot of ukemi going on.

I'm still learning this "jin" stuff, but my view is that ukemi is in line with what Dan, Mike, and Rob are doing. If you are uke, what is it that you are dealing with after your first initial attack? A response from tori. What response? Well, it is "aikido". So, that response had better be "aiki". Your ukemi should equate to receive "aiki" with the body. That's the major part of ukemi. That is what gives uke choices and that is what ukemi is about. Not rolling and falling because at that point, there aren't many choices left.

My opinion anyway,
Mark
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Old 02-14-2007, 07:10 PM   #14
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Re: Ukemi and Kokyu

OK, let me posit a slightly different perspective...

Uke means "to receive". Assuming that the law of reciprocity applies (work with me here for the moment)... in order to "receive", one has to first "give". So uke attempts to put force into nage... but nage isn't merely a conduit to the ground... nage is going to not only reflect the force given, but also add to and amplify it (i.e. aiki) on the return (what Mike is saying in relation to baseline skills)... sooooo..... if uke cannot handle (absorb/redirect) the amplified force on the return what happens? Possibly a roll out or a break fall (the simplistic meaning of ukemi)? (I'm talking of course, within a training context).

And if uke can handle the returned force (the literal meaning of ukemi), it becomes kaeshi (within the context of aikido) - and perhaps, more along the lines of what Dan is saying?

So, to me, I don't see why ukemi (in the literal sense) is not (or cannot be) related to kokyu development, since uke is also learning how to express and receive force, within that context.

It is a bit of a paradigm shift, because the delineation of nage/uke is blurred, insofar as uke is able to continue to receive and return the force to nage, and vice versa. I think it is important to clarify that this is "play" and not about winning or losing, but a shared learning experience.

FWIW, I take ukemi for all my "students"... and depending on where they're at in terms of understanding and ability, I might choose to "fall over" or "roll out" (whilst still maintaining a viable structure), OR, I might still take "ukemi" and "push" them just a little bit more. Even if I do take a dive, I might even take it to the ground (but only if they're really cute).

Ignatius
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Old 02-14-2007, 08:04 PM   #15
DH
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Re: Ukemi and Kokyu

Hi Ignatious
I agree but all we've ever really discussed on these boards is the first step. The game is more fun when either person can apply force without it being dedication-of-balance force. Oddly that one way to do that is actually in the weight transfer exercises. Even in the rowing exercise (we have our own method for this that is applicable to grappling and striking) a key element is how to manage say-using the upper center to apply weight yet your not losing balance. Same with horizontal transfer. There is a built-in stop there for a reason. Doing these exercises within-the-bones creates a very hard sharp hit feel that is soooo relaxed in the frame and very hard to unbalance. Its rather fun to push and shove-say with a good jujutsu guy and as he tries to add to the force (either by pulling or pushing me) or vector and press you he finds there's nothing there to play with and he is getting played.
Rob and I discussed some aspects of this in one of the training threads. There are ways to manipulate connections in men. And men who have trained in internal skills DO NOT respond to those manipulations in the same way that regularly trained fighters do. They can say they do. Fine by me. But they don't.
So one aspect of these skills is the rather basic absorption of power. But while it remains profound and beyond many people (really just because they haven't pursued it), it is really just step one. There are so many ways to engage and play using various elements. And oh the many ways you can screw it up. But the end result of all the training being your body feels heavy as hell, you can feel very soft and ghosty while moving and rolling or fast and hard-and rather like hard rubber coated steel... all the while you're relaxed and feeling, listening and moving.
Learning this by falling down? Baloney.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 02-14-2007 at 08:17 PM.
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Old 02-14-2007, 08:28 PM   #16
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Re: Ukemi and Kokyu

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
but all we've ever really discusses on these boards is the first step.
That's all I'm talking about.... first steps... tiny baby ones...

Quote:
Its rather fun to push and shove-say with a good jujutsu guy and as he tries to add to the force (either by pulling or pushing me) or vector and press you he finds there's nothing there to play with and he is getting played.
I don't know what "good" means. Heck, I'm not even THAT good. My experience with playing with jujitsuka is very limited, but boy was it fun to have them pull, push and shove and not be able to move or lock me. I had one black belt literally hanging off me trying to take me into his guard - with me still standing... Actually, that was a BAD example.... that's how I tore the medial meniscus... which was my fault entirely

Quote:
But the end result of all the training being your body feels heavy as hell, you can feel very soft and ghosty while moving and rolling or fast and hard-and rather like hard rubber coated steel... all the while you're relaxed and feeling, listening and moving.
Learning this by falling down? Baloney.
I agree, not by falling down or rolling out... but by literally taking ukemi...

Ignatius
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Old 02-14-2007, 09:51 PM   #17
David Orange
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Re: Ukemi and Kokyu

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote:
Your ukemi should equate to receive "aiki" with the body. That's the major part of ukemi. That is what gives uke choices and that is what ukemi is about. Not rolling and falling because at that point, there aren't many choices left.

My opinion anyway,
Well, it's a valid opinion, but if you seek out people who are genuinely "far" more advanced than you, you're going to find yourself rolling and falling.

In a local dojo, you might be able to avoid it, but go where the water is really deep and the big fish come up, and it's a different story.

Best to you.

David

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Lao Tzu

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Old 02-14-2007, 10:15 PM   #18
David Orange
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Re: Ukemi and Kokyu

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
...the end result of all the training being your body feels heavy as hell, you can feel very soft and ghosty while moving and rolling or fast and hard-and rather like hard rubber coated steel... all the while you're relaxed and feeling, listening and moving.
Learning this by falling down? Baloney.
Of course, there are some aspects that you can't learn by falling down. My point is that kokyu is an integral aspect of a good roll. Without using kokyu in the roll, the roll is not a self-defense method. If a roll is to save your life in an emergency, it has to employ kokyu.

As to the other skills you're discussing, again, I think that goes back to the sliding scale idea. Every person has a limit and there's always some guy whose limit is a little bit further out. The great masters specialize in getting people off their feet and throwing them. So if the guy whose limit is a couple of hairs further out than your own, he will be able to throw you.

Or go to an extreme: I don't see you as the type who would say Mifune could not have thrown you. Maybe I'm wrong. But I think you would admit that Kyuzo Mifune could probably throw you.

And if that is the case, then you will need falling and rolling techniques and they should be done with kokyu ryoku.

And don't forget that sutemi waza were one of Mifune's specialties. He often threw people by falling--sometime out of their throw, sometimes out of when they thought they were throwing him. So maybe the skills you describe actually can be learned and executed by falling down and rolling.

Just a thought.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 02-14-2007, 10:19 PM   #19
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Re: Ukemi and Kokyu

Once again David your missing the point.
We are saying
1. Kokyu training is not Ukemi
2. Yes, knowing how to take a throw (as -in-ukemi) is good to know
We are not arguing with you there. Just stating its different training
3. Having good Kokyu skills (its actually more complex than just that) greatly diminishes your need to ever fall down, even from experts who may get you and bounce you or move you, they will have a more difficult time making you "have" to fall.
Sutemi ain't kokyu. Its good jujutsu. And it can be stopped dead in its tracks. Read Ignatious post about men hanging off him. BTDT
I'm not going to say who can throw me or not. I've had some rather interesting and memorable experiences, even humorous. What I am telling you is it will get much more difficult to be thrown and it will take much better men to do so.And thsats just playing. Add in Punches, kicks and body slams and it is a whole new way to be. So, I'll be the best I can be, you work on you.

So the argument is Ukemi is easy to learn. BTDT.
Kokyu training is different than Ukemi
Get it?
I'm not saying you have to agree. But my gosh man get the argument right so we can fight kidding
Cheers anyway Bud
Dan

Last edited by DH : 02-14-2007 at 10:30 PM.
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Old 02-14-2007, 10:33 PM   #20
David Orange
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Re: Ukemi and Kokyu

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Once again David your missing the point.
We are saying
1. Kokyu training is not Ukemi
In the omote, it's not. But the ura of that is ukemi. And again, the thrust of my point is that when you "do" do ukemi, it "must" contain kokyu. So you can learn the essence of kokyu through doing ukemi--either with a partner or solo--and then apply that skill in standing, without falling down.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Sutemi ain't kokyu.
Aiki sutemi uses kokyu, just like any aiki nage waza.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Its good jujutsu. And it can be stopped dead in its tracks. Read Ignatious post about men hanging off him.
I know about that. In Japan, I had a guy try kani basami on my neck. He wound up hanging from my neck by his feet. Mochizuki Sensei was sitting on the couch, laughing like crazy, pointing at that guy hanging upside down from my neck. The whole dojo was cracking up at it. I was just standing there. And I have tried sutemi with absolutely no result. But I've also used sutemi very effectively on occasion. So I have been on both sides. Timing has to be the most important element, for sure.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Thus Kokyu training is different than Ukemi
Get it?
I'm not saying you have to agree. But my gosh man get the argument right so we can fight
I just think it's "all" kokyu training, if you do it right.

Cheers.

David

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Lao Tzu

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Old 02-14-2007, 10:38 PM   #21
DH
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Re: Ukemi and Kokyu

Another thought to help you get off that argument. Or at least clarify terms.
An example I use to demonstrate. I offer an arm and say do Kotogaeshi. I stand there, and the guy can't do it.
I snap my fingeres and say do it again
I let him "get me" till I am bent over but then I stop him and I stand there and reverse it into him.
Then I snap my fingers
I "take ukemi" and lightly kick him going over.
then I snap my fingers and I stand there looking at him as he cranks
With Judo guys I say throw me and just stand there.
Levels of Kokyu are demonstrable as levels of power.
Not as ways to fall down
Cheers
Dan
I gotta hit the hay.. I'm out
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Old 02-15-2007, 08:29 AM   #22
eyrie
 
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Re: Ukemi and Kokyu

Just to throw a spanner in the works, I just got my hot little hands on Vlad's (of Systema fame) book "Let Every Breath". Interestingly, "rolling" is prescribed and recommended BUT as a way to work the breath. So, on the one hand I can understand Dave's perspective regarding the ura of ukemi, I think it's not so much the act of falling over and rolling, but working more on whole body connection, leg strength and breath control - what they call Breath Independence. That you do a roll in the process in by the by.... that can be done without rolling too.

Ignatius
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Old 02-15-2007, 08:54 AM   #23
DH
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Re: Ukemi and Kokyu

Systema -like many other arts- doesn't say or tell everything. If you don't know an advanced teacher, I wouldn't assume their breath work is all covered. Systema breath work runs deep- far past relaxation.
As for Kokyu and falling you can also do Systema's version of breath work to gain heavy hands in their pushup as well. But I wouldn't say you need to "fall" on your hands to learn that skill. There are other ways to get the feet-into-the-hands. I could also argue for training ground-work and how to use the body and here breath work can be an even greater advantage. But it still is not ukemi is it? The best way to train Kokyu skills is standing. I will argue-nicely of course-that the best way to train standing is to train? To remain standing.

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 02-15-2007 at 09:09 AM.
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Old 02-15-2007, 09:15 AM   #24
David Orange
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Re: Ukemi and Kokyu

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote:
Levels of Kokyu are demonstrable as levels of power.
Not as ways to fall down
Cheers
Dan
I gotta hit the hay.. I'm out
I had to drop off about 11:30 due to an 8:00 AM conference call from home. But it was already 12:30 your time and you kept going!

But again, my point is that it takes proper power to take a fall safely--kokyu power in specific. And I'm not talking dive monkey stuff, but what you have to do when someone well above your level puts you down.

I mentioned Mifune last night, but later I remembered this Japanese policeman I met at a taiho jutsu competition (where I was a spectator). This guy was huge for a Japanese--tall, but no fat on him. He was straight as a board and moved very fluidly. He had the kind of eyes that look through you without harshness--just a pure kind of person. I think he was 7th dan in judo. I guess he was over six feet tall and maybe 220, but had an overall presence that stands out in my memory even from all the spectacular people I met over there. If Mike is correct that there is a sliding scale, this guy must have been on the high side.

Not to say you personally, but I've never met the greatest in the world whom no one could throw. I don't know how that works, but it seems there's always someone a little better. And even monkies fall from trees...

So it seems to me that kokyu is not only trainable through ukemi waza, but sometimes needed in a fall.

FWIW.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 02-15-2007, 10:31 AM   #25
DH
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Re: Ukemi and Kokyu

Hi Bud
Do me one favour will ya. I've said over and over that no one is unstoppable. That said when I use terms like unthrowable, unlockable, it just seems easier to say. I really mean extremely-difficult-to-throw for normal skilled martial artists. Now there's a mouthful. In truth the power is different from the norm. And against conventional martial artists "unthrowable" and "unlockable" just may be the workable definition. I know who I'd place my money on. But the real test is with guys with internal skills themselves. Then it becomes a test of if you can or cannot get moved, or get poped up, down or to the side, or actually "lose your feet" thrown. Again, back to conventional guys it's rather easy to give them power and then not give them anything to use to throw you. You get better as you get older if you keep training. Its not about technical skills and counters. My falling skills are fine, Dave. You can try making me have to use them if we hookup. I promise you two things You will feel something different, and we'll have allot of laughs. And beers are on me
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 02-15-2007 at 10:36 AM.
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