Ki ball of energy

Don,
Let's say I'm skeptical about the whole "ball of energy" thing. I have no experience with it and haven't actually seen it either, only read it in books. My mind isn't closed to the idea. Just as atoms did exist even before we could prove their existence, I believe there are "things" that we haven't proven yet that do exist.

I was only extrapolating the idea from a known (hard object on bone) to the unknown ("ball of energy" on stiff body).

Thanks, Mike. Makes sense.

I can only continue reading/studying/practicing.

Eric Saemann wrote: Don, Let's say I'm skeptical about the whole "ball of energy" thing. I have no experience with it and haven't actually seen it either, only read it in books. My mind isn't closed to the idea. Just as atoms did exist even before we could prove their existence, I believe there are "things" that we haven't proven yet that do exist. I was only extrapolating the idea from a known (hard object on bone) to the unknown ("ball of energy" on stiff body).

While it is true we could only speculate on atoms before we could test it, we can however test a ki ball strike this very moment.

A simple test by scientists could asset if you can damage an animal without touching it very quickly. In fact, the goldfish test stated previously would go a long way in proving ki balls. One easy way would be to get a test subject like a gorilla or monkey, something with similar human anatomy. The master could then ki strike the monkey from whatever distance is required. The monkey could then be inspected for physical damage.

Sure we might not be able to detect a ki ball. But if the claim is physical damage, we can for sure detect that. If I told you I could blow up a building with invisible lasers from my eyes, you might not be able to detect the lasers, but watching me blow up a building in a proven scientific study by a 3rd party should prove my point.

Or...you could just dust off your goldfish, and save a really big building.

Assuming that there ARE ki-balls, that is...

Oh never mind...this is getting silly...

B,
R

From now on, anytime someone mentions anything I find silly. I am going to say "but what about my goldfish!"

LOL Good one, once again Don!

B,
R (needed a good chuckle...the GF is freaking out, and my Mom is driving me CRAZY....)

Don Magee wrote: From now on, anytime someone mentions anything I find silly. I am going to say "but what about my goldfish!"

ROTFL! Have to echo Ron, that was great!

Sweet, must be christmas break! Ki balls! awesome!

Mike Sigman wrote: As noted in the book "Encounters with Qi" by David Eisenberg, M.D., you can "feel" something from someone who has worked his electromagnetic stuff up to a good level.

Hmm...

There are a number of videos of "ki" or "qi" on the internet showing stooge... er, students reacting to someone who can, in all probability, generate a little bit of electromagnetic field.

If you or anyone you know can "work up" a bit of electromagnetic field, James Randi has a million dollars for you. If I were such a student I'd stop messing about and go claim the free money.

Sean Orchard wrote: If you or anyone you know can "work up" a bit of electromagnetic field, James Randi has a million dollars for you. If I were such a student I'd stop messing about and go claim the free money.

Gee.... this is a laydown. A Human Electromagnetic Field (HEF) has been established for a long time, Sean. It's weak, but it's there. You rushed too quickly to make a negative comment and tripped yourself up. Maybe if you go read Randi's "challenge" again?

Regards,

Mike

Ron Tisdale wrote: LOL Good one, once again Don! B, R (needed a good chuckle...the GF is freaking out, and my Mom is driving me CRAZY....)

Now whenever someone writes "GF" and "relationship" I'll be left wondering if that special something is the girlfriend or the goldfish

Mike Sigman wrote: Maybe if you go read Randi's "challenge" again?

No need. You said:

you can "feel" something from someone who has worked his electromagnetic stuff up to a good level

That definitely qualifies, but don't take my word for it. If you can do this, check out Randi's challenge again yourself, and then go get your million dollars.

Sean
x

I wouldn't rely on James Randi as an authority on science. He barely understands basic scientific principles, but he's made a bundle billing himself as "scientific."

However, his core message is sound. Which is simply that if you have a fantastic claim (such as injury things from 10 feet away with a glance of your eyes or a ki ball), you should prove it. Otherwise your just talking bull.

Do you guys trust Usheiba? Why would you believe in, and practice his external art, and not the internal one?
He had a certain level of enlightement, to say to not fight. 2000 years after JC said to love thine enemy. I guess we martial artists don't catch on so quickly, we're known more for our guts.
It takes a certain amount of trust in and faith in the universal nature of all things, and the transcendendal possibilities of a human being.
This cannot be easily taught. Some people believe and some do not.
I thing you are more or less born that way. Usheibas spiritual bullet came before he had his enlightenment experience. He already had a sixth sense. He was predisposed to learning higher more abstract things.
The best Ki exercises are meditation and zen type spiritual exercises and you will be making better use of your precious life energy. Americans are always looking to shorten and assembly line everything. Even soul evolution.
Achieve nothingness go the center of all creation, trust it and let your life and Aikido spring forth without over intellectualization.
Ki=life energy, life energy=God, How foolish to try to understand/explain God. How is this possible?

You know at some point all these guys, Ueshiba, Buddha, JC....all said, don't trust in me, trust in what I say, and that you have the power within you to make things happen, and to acheive happiness, enlightment, nirvana etc....

So, I don't so much trust, or have faith in a person, or a personification of a spiritual being, but try and use their teachings as a guideline to find the way. Everyone's path will be different.

I don't think there is anything wrong with "show me the money". It is easy for someone to build a dojo with all the caligraphy and wood work, put on a hakama, and all the robes, take on a soft, gentle pseudo japanese voice and demeanor...and then say TRUST ME, it will come with time, I'd show you, but you are not ready.

I think if they have the true ability then they CAN show you, and show you in any given situation. They may choose NOT to, but they CAN if that WANT to.

I think it can be easily taught. I think this is what guys like George Ledyard sensei, and Mike Sigman are getting at. Easy being a realitive term of course.

Don't short change Americans for wanting to take shortcuts. We do have our shortcomings I would agree, but innovation, and cutting to the core of what is important I don't believe is one of them.

Buddha, Jesus, and even Ueshiba and Kano, developed and codified things for us, shortcuts that is, so we did not have to waste our time on practices that did not lead down the right paths.

Where shortcuts become dangerous is when we lose perspective on what is important, say like valuing convienence and low cost over the environment, and we apply those new shortcuts in ways that are not necessarily the best for the world at large. That has nothing to do with innovation or taken shortcuts, and everything to do with Values and Ethics.

The world ain't fair. You could study aikido for 1 day and achieve what it has taken someone 20 years to achieve, or even surpass the sensei or shihan that has been studying for 40 years! There is no correct way to understand things, or a linear progression. Of course this might be a huge hit to the ego of the shihan who is professessing, "have faith, it will come to you in 20 years!''

So, I think I suppose that we must be very cautious about where we put our faith and trust, and expectations. The best place to place it, is in ourselves.

So, I think I suppose that we must be very cautious about where we put our faith and trust, and expectations. The best place to place it, is in ourselves.

I respectfully disagree, the best place to place faith and trust and expectations is in God.

Usheiba said:

1.)Those who have a warped mind, a mind of discord, have been defeated from the beginning.

Then, how can you straighten your warped mind, purify your heart, and be harmonized with the activities of all things in Nature? You should first make God's heart yours. It is the great Love, Omnipresent in all quarters and in all times of the universe. "There is no discord in love. There is no enemy of love." A mind of discord, thinking of the existence of an enemy is no more consistent with the will of God.
2.) I do not make a companion of men. Whom, then do I make a companion of? God.

If we put faith only in ourselves, then how many of us would attain these higher states?
Oh yes, we can improve ourselves, for sure, but to learn something more foreign to ones nature is another thing altogether. For that we need a mirror to see our blind spots. The teacher is our mirror.
In Aikido, that is why honest ukemi is so important. It is a mirror of our performance in this case the "teacher" is the uke.
It is pretty much a common belief that one on a spiritual journey needs a teacher.
If this were not true, there would be a lot more wise and happy people walking around.

Just my opinion,

Spiritual teachers push you to "attain". They correct you when you are astray, reward and punish as necessary to bring out the best in you.

I know this conversation may not end in agreement, Kevin, I understand that a martian person loves courage and self reliance. But when we put love into the equation now we are more of a conduit for higher energy or God's influence. When drawing down this heavenly ki we do so through a deity or saint, or prophet or messiah. This is a step toward accelerating growth. Again, my understanding is that the best we can be is a vessel for higher energy. That the ego self is nothing more than the grand illusion and enemy of the souls journey which needs to be surrendered. The higher self needs to be nourished and cultivated.

I always say how much can you trust someone? 10$ worth, 100, 1000, 100000 1000000? 10 million,

How much can you trust yourself?

That your ego won't get out of hand when you have 10, 100, 1000, 10000 etc. students, subjects?

That your passions will be under control surrounded by whatever number of beautiful women stranded on a desert island?

The watchful eye of a teacher, living or dead can save one from oneself. The real fight is the one with yourself and whatever weakness you or I have. To plug up the holes in your spiritual ship.

Well, I have ranted enough for one post tonight, sorry to be so contrary, I may be all wet, but this is how I honestly see the whole thing.

I agree with what you are saying from this standpoint.

Maybe something as simple as semantics of accepting responsibility for your own actions and development.

Or the paradigm that the divine is within you...or for that matter all around. It permeates.

To me, belief in a God as a separate and distinct entity translates into duality, dualtiy translates into discord and conflict.

Until we trust ourselves, and believe in oursevles, how can we expect to get better and see things more clearly?

I agree, difficult to discuss, just stirring the pot.
It is a fine line, even the greatest of yogis, eg Milarepa, needed a teacher. My point was how far can you trust yourself?You sound like a disciplined guy, but how about your "blind spots" a teacher can guide you. If you read Milarepa, Tibet's great yogi. You will love it. He starts out one way and ends up another. Don't want to give it away. What his teacher puts him through is monumental. But the "punishment" fit the crime. It has been one of the inspiration for my life.
Really enjoy these discussions.
God be with you.
Mike

The best book on his life, with great detail and emotion:

"Tibet's Great Yogi—Milarepa" (by W.Y. Evans Wentz, Jesus College Oxford) from the Oxford University Press, London.

You need teachers and others.

But I think before you can really embrace what many are teaching, you need to first take care of yourself.

To love others you must first love yourself.

To be able to do physical aikido, you must first take care of your physical fitness.

To be able to be prepared to understand the lessons, you must have a clear mind.

Not everyone has your best interest at heart.

Not everyone has the right lessons to teach you.

You alone are responsible for your actions and decisions.

I suppose all I am saying that the starting point to everything is you.

To not believe in yourself, and to think poorly of yourself, or to say "I am not worthy, therefore I surrender myself in faith" is not the correct way of doing things.

This is blind faith, and IMO is a dangerous spot to be in.

You will see things as you wish to see them, or how others wish you to see them....not as how the really are.

This is how KI balls become reality. It is a sad perversion of reality.

I told you we wouldn't agree on this one.
All the Best,
Mike

ive never been to a ki seminar but ive done alot of reading on ki and i know what you are talking about, i just didnt know wether or not it is actually possible. if you coulkd possibly clarify wether or not you actually watched someone make and or throw a ki ball that would be great.

Those that believe in it have seen it. It is their version of reality. We all have our own version of it.

What parts don't we agree on Mike?

That it is not important to first love yourself?

Just curious, not trolling for a fight! I have enjoyed our discussions!

Real martial artists are strongly influenced by planet Mars.
Mars rules soldiers, fighting arts, police, fireman, etc. where courage, honor, valor and steadfast determination are needed. This implies self reliance, self confidence, and confidence in oneself and abilities.
One cannot be wavering at the point of attack, with an insecure mind, etc.

When we talk about spiritual development or soul evolution, many more planets and aspects of a human being come into the picture. As we all know, Aikido is only one path of many toward the same end. Spiritual practice is often the salvation of people suffering in life. Many of us are grappling with self destructive or self defeating thinking and suffer for it.
My astrologer often said that suffering is caused by the wrong thinking. And that the "motto" of the 12Th house of self undoing or karma was to serve or suffer.
My spiritual teacher told me once, (at age 22) that if I couldn't do it for myself, then do it for him and, with time, I would eventually love myself enough to do it for me.
Any way, not all of us have strong martial tendencies. I happen to be inconsistent with that.
In other words, courageous when in the ashram, spiritual group, not as much in other parts of life.
(Mars on the cusp of the 12th house in Sagittarius) (You know how self righteous I can be)

With respect to martial arts, yes, in a way all you need is Mars. (with discipline of Saturn)

If you are talking about Aikido The way of harmony with the universe, you need Venus, (love,compassion, grace, artistry). Jupiter ( expansion, wisdom), and more.

You see, for Ueshiba Aikido, we need it all.

My teacher used to say, to become spiritual, you first must become human. Now some are already there, but I am sure, you have met, more than your share of those whose human values are a distant second to their animal survival instincts. In other words, they may lack a balance of the different elements:

Courage, and compassion Mars and Venus
Knowledge and Wisdom Mercury and Jupiter
Soul/Spirit and Discipline/Foresight Moon/Sun and Saturn


Tao says, the middle way, not too loving, not too strong

Too much compassion can weaken, for example, our children. Then need to develop courage by failing and getting up again.
In my opinion, the flimsy Aikido of some of the schools have gone too far toward the Venus side, might as well be a dance school.

How many of us (mostly males) look back on our Mars filled youth and have some regret? Mars also is passion, sex drive.

That's partly where I am coming from. I am mostly a Jupiterian, now immersed again in the world of Mars. Talking harmony and peace, to warriors talking of technique. I love them for it, but I am compelled by my nature to speak the way I do.

BTW, I agree with virtually everything you have said in this thread, but some of us need more extra help after class.

All the Best, Kevin, hope to meet in person.

Thanks for the explaination Mike!

I think balance is needed between compassion, spirituality, and warrior values. Musashi I think does a good job of articulating this. (for warriors at least).

Those that ignore the compassion and spirituality aspects of themselves, will deal with it later on in life or after the battle.

Thanks again.