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Old 05-28-2002, 09:45 PM   #1
chadsieger
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Ki Symbol Train In Ki And Why

I'm am by no means an expert on ki. I have tasted a drop, but it springs from ocean I probably will never fully see. I can say for certain however that ki has these few attributes, firstly, ki comes in many forms (i.e. unbendable arm, the way that animals instinctively move), next, you need to utilize ki to correctly use Aikido or any other martial art correctly/most effectively (although Aikido and Tai Chi stress its importance the most), third, proper ki usage is attainable by anyone simply with effort, time, and direction, and finally, although ki is mysteriously vague, you know it when you see it.

If someone grabs you with two hands on one single hand of yours (morotote dori), and let's assume, as we should always assume in Aikido, that that person is stronger than you. You must escape without atemi, (your free hand is tied/occupied/damaged). You will be unable to use your muscle. If you have a well developed ki, escaping won't be a problem. He will find it difficult to hold on. And you will be able to throw him instantly. Remember he is the aggressor, simply take his ki!

The single best way to improve one's martial skill, whether its in dojo, in the ring, or surrounded in an ally, is to simply spend five minutes a day improving their ki/chi. Unfortunately, ki is very vague and ambiguous, so it can't ever be truly conveyed in words, written or spoken.One of the ways in which ki can be felt is though proper use of body mechanics. There are other ways for it to be experienced. It is certainly not "hogwash." And whether you believe me or not, improving one's ki is the single best way to improve one's martial ability. If a technique can be done slowly, smoothly, and constantly stable, when it needs to be done
fast, it cannot be stopped.
Arm locks, wrist locks, "arm bars," or any other type of mechanical submission, while probably proving a godsend if your unfortunate opponent knows nothing of the martial arts, would only be cumbersome and in many cases (as in if attempted on my Sensei/sempai) would be worthless. Kotegaeshi, Ikkyo, Nikyo, Sankyo, Yonkyo, and even Gokyo are among the "locks" that Ueshiba elected to train Aikido with. Although these techniques do have mechanical properties that make them quite dangerous (other martial arts sometimes train with some of these, although they often keep them mechanical), their true value is revealed when you create a connection between your center and your opponents through the technique. If a kotegaeshi is applied slowly enough, one will feel a threshold where the opponents center/ki is captured. He/she will be unable to move at all, much less attempt to apply some BJJ move or whatever. Sankyo might be the best "hold" to feel this connection on. Essentially, if the opponent can escape from a static sankyo, it is not applied correctly or should I say with the correct intention. Eventually the sensitivity develops (if done correctly, it can take less than a year to begin to feel the effects), and you become accustomed to feeling others centers/ki fields immediately. My Sensei's ki has developed to a point that, when one comes into physical contact with my Sensei, one is immediately off balance. Unless of course, your ki were stronger than his. In that case, we would probably pack up shop and follow you!
Regardless, no locks work against him, unless of course, as I had previously stated, you have a better ki. It's a sliding scale however. I cant apply anything to anyone in my dojo with a greater ki, unless they want me to. Which is good, because them letting me succeed little by little builds my ki!
I will say this though, in my experience most Aikido dojos do NOT practice Aikido correctly. We had a Sensei from a nearby dojo, come to train. The first time he grabbed me katate dori (one hand on one hand) I instantly knew that his ten years training had been an almost complete waste in terms of budo. Had I chosen I could have thrown him easily, and in any manner that I felt. His ki field was hallow. We had a two-month white belt, who although did not have the sensitivity to tell, had greater ki as well.
If your Sensei sounds like the one last mentioned, dont worry. It is never to late to develop one's ki. Never muscle through another technique again.

Thanks for reading.
Chad
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Old 05-28-2002, 11:43 PM   #2
Chris Li
 
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Re: Train In Ki And Why

Quote:
Originally posted by chadsieger
My Sensei's ki has developed to a point that, when one comes into physical contact with my Sensei, one is immediately off balance. Unless of course, your ki were stronger than his. In that case, we would probably pack up shop and follow you!
I'll be expecting a check for your membership fees. Don't forget now, or else I'll have to extend my ki field.

Quote:

Regardless, no locks work against him, unless of course, as I had previously stated, you have a better ki.
Well that's the difference, then. My keys always work in my locks - if they stick then a little WD-40 usually does the trick...

My, my, where's Dan Harden when you need him ?

Best,

Chris

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Old 05-28-2002, 11:57 PM   #3
chadsieger
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We dont charge fees. We teach for ourselves and others.

Thanks.
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Old 05-29-2002, 03:39 AM   #4
jk
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Re: Re: Train In Ki And Why

Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Li


My, my, where's Dan Harden when you need him ?



Maybe if Jun creates a "Daito-ryu" or "Sword Arts" section...

Last edited by jk : 05-29-2002 at 03:55 AM.
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Old 05-29-2002, 03:54 AM   #5
Jim ashby
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Didn't we have a thread about Ki balls..... or was it just Ki balls?
Have fun.

Vir Obesus Stola Saeptus
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Old 05-29-2002, 04:29 AM   #6
PeterR
 
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Re: Train In Ki And Why

Quote:
Originally posted by chadsieger
The first time he grabbed me katate dori (one hand on one hand) I instantly knew that his ten years training had been an almost complete waste in terms of budo. Had I chosen I could have thrown him easily, and in any manner that I felt. His ki field was hallow. We had a two-month white belt, who although did not have the sensitivity to tell, had greater ki as well.
OK - sometimes new posters are just too easy. Chad - why don't you introduce yourself, how long have you practiced, who is your sensei, what affiliation. Right now all we have to go on is something that comes across as "only me and my sensei have the answer to all the world". Basically I have heard stuff like that before and it usually covers up a serious shortcoming in Aikido. What is your definition of Budo?

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 05-29-2002, 06:25 AM   #7
Greg Jennings
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Chad,

How about emptying your glass? Create an open mind and ask the other members' opinions?

Did you know that there is a person that regularly posts here that has been training, like, 50 years? What about his thoughts?

Did you know that several people that have responded to your posts speak Japanese and/or have spent long periods of time in Japan and could give you the "inside scoop"?

A fellow with a PhD in Biochemistry responded to one of your posts? What about his opinion about "ki". Surely his would be interesting.

Did you know that this has been discussed ad naseaum on a recent thread? You could have been referred to it.

Sincerely,

Greg Jennings
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Old 05-29-2002, 06:39 AM   #8
aiki_what
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KI

I once had someone chastise me because my ki was going in the wrong direction to do a throw.......so I smacked him in the cojones lightly and while he attempted to regather his ki I executed a beautiful Kaiten-nage.
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Old 05-29-2002, 07:22 AM   #9
Greg Jennings
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Re: KI

Quote:
Originally posted by aiki_what
I once had someone chastise me because my ki was going in the wrong direction to do a throw.......so I smacked him in the cojones lightly and while he attempted to regather his ki I executed a beautiful Kaiten-nage.
In that context, I've heard people use "ki" to mean "momentum" or "the natural path things are headed in".

In that sense, one could certainly have one's "ki" headed in the "wrong" direction(assuming one's goal is to utilize his partner's momentum to execute the technique).

Best Regards,

Greg Jennings
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Old 05-29-2002, 09:05 AM   #10
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We are taught that "ki" comes throught proper execution of the technqiue and training. IMHO, my Sensei certainly has it, you can feel it. Sensei Phong was the 5' 6th dan that demonstrated recently at the Aiki Expo and is featured in the July 2002 Black Belt Magazine. Since I train in an Aikikai style, I have been taught more about technical proficiency that extension of ki.

To the best of my understanding, what I do note is that the proper alignment (everything pointing in the same direction), following the natural momentum of the waza, staying relaxed, breathing, and projecting my intent (visualization of the waza continuing) seems to be what I feel. Its like taking all the kinks out of the hose before you try to run the water through it. I know that this is a sumplictic non-mystical description of Ki which does it a real disservice. I guess the Ki that can be described is not the real Ki.

Until again,

Lynn
Nidan Tenshinkai Aikido
Lucaylucay Kali JKD

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 05-29-2002, 10:10 AM   #11
chadsieger
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I'm posting for no other reason than to help those begining on their martial arts quest. I'm not particulary interested in thread ratings, "experts" from Japan, or any other Aikidoka who spend any amount of time griping. Disagree is fine. Disagree with a comment is better. Order me as if I am a newbie, worse.
If the information I present has been discussed on another thread, I am sorry. But then since it must have value, discussing it again will be beneficial.
Momentum is one of the manifests of ki. You can eventually feel an attacker's power coming at you. Simply blend with the ki until you get the opponents center/ki. (To test this, if a kotegaeshi is applied slowly enough, one will feel a threshold where the opponents center/ki is captured. He/she will be unable to move at all.)
Build that feeling add extentsion, softness, circles, and sensitivity and you've learned yourself some martial arts!
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Old 05-29-2002, 12:13 PM   #12
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Ki Symbol Re: KI

Quote:
Originally posted by aiki_what
I once had someone chastise me because my ki was going in the wrong direction to do a throw.......so I smacked him in the cojones lightly and while he attempted to regather his ki I executed a beautiful Kaiten-nage.
Just because someone falls down, it doesn't mean the technique was done correctly. Atemi has often been used to cover up poor execution.

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
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Old 05-29-2002, 01:31 PM   #13
tedehara
 
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Ki Symbol Ki in Training

Hi Chad,

Most people study Aikido in the traditional manner. This means the techniques are learned physically. Through training you can learn to transcend the physical confrontation and lead your partner's intent or ki.

Traditional training also means little, if any, discussion is given to ki or ki development. This parallels traditional Chinese Tai Chi practice, where the teacher says little or nothing about Chi/Qi.

When Koichi Tohei formed the Ki Society, he deliberately emphasized ki development. In contrast, Aikikai emphasized the martial traditions of O Sensei. This split from Aikikai was tramatic. There are still intense feelings that I don't see ending soon.

Just thought you might like to know why there are so many ruffled feathers, when you write about ki.

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
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Old 05-29-2002, 04:01 PM   #14
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Cool Re: Ki in Training

Hi Chad,

I may have met your teacher and if so you are fortunate. It does sound like you have a good training environment to learn in. If you are trying to reach beginners about the importance of ki training from the beginning probably a not quite so ernest post would leave a better impression.

Having been around a bit (most recently at the Aiki Expo), I can sympathize with what you are saying. It does say something about that other teacher that he was visiting your dojo. Was he looking for something ? Did you help him (or your Sensei) find it. I could imagine that if his visit helped him to catch on to what was missing that all those years of physical practice would not be a waste. It's only a waste if he never sees what's missing. Too many around like that not even willing to look.

Some may not care for what you say for historical reasons and others may simply have trouble relating to what you are saying simply because their training methodology is so different. Some may be adverse to the use of the K- word but end up using many of the some tools with different labels. It doesn't really matter. The rare gems out there that really do get what Ki is about and are able to effectively teach the rest of us aren't posting to this list.


Craig
Houston Ki Society
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Old 05-29-2002, 04:45 PM   #15
guest1234
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Quote:
Originally posted by chadsieger
I'm posting for no other reason than to help those begining on their martial arts quest. I'm not particulary interested in thread ratings, "experts" from Japan, or any other Aikidoka who spend any amount of time griping. Disagree is fine. Disagree with a comment is better. Order me as if I am a newbie, worse.
If the information I present has been discussed on another thread, I am sorry. But then since it must have value, discussing it again will be beneficial.
Momentum is one of the manifests of ki. You can eventually feel an attacker's power coming at you. Simply blend with the ki until you get the opponents center/ki. (To test this, if a kotegaeshi is applied slowly enough, one will feel a threshold where the opponents center/ki is captured. He/she will be unable to move at all.)
Build that feeling add extentsion, softness, circles, and sensitivity and you've learned yourself some martial arts!
At first I thought my 'ignore' filter was broken ! Then I realized there were neither pressure point nor turtle references Whew, what a relief...
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Old 05-29-2002, 07:13 PM   #16
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by chadsieger
Order me as if I am a newbie, worse.
A bit of background would be nice. Are we dealing with a 5th kyu Shihan, a Shodan who has bought into one system only, or someone with serious Aikido time who happens not to do particularily well on electronic forums.

So far all we have is someone accusing others of having full cups when apparently yours is spilling over.

If by the way you are not interested in opinions - how can you expect others to be interested in yours.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 05-29-2002, 11:54 PM   #17
chadsieger
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Ai symbol

Firstly, I don't mean to offend anyone. My intention is not to preach or talk down to anyone. The purpose of my posts are simply to advise those just begining their martial arts journey, those who are dissatisfied with or just looking for more from their training, or those who simply are getting on in years and are looking for a way to make those old techniques still work now that the body is not so willing. If you have already decide not to persue the ki aspect of martial arts, than I am sorry and that is your decision. If you are still undecided as to its existence and purpose/usefulness in martial arts and especially Aikido, please feel free to read my posts.
I don't care about organizations, I don't care about history or pride. I don't care about belts, I don't care about rankings. Aikido and martial arts in general hold so many more rewards. Go through my posts looking for what you can use, not what to pick at. That's Aikido!
Mr. Hocker, the visiting sensei was interestingly enough looking for new students at his local dojo. My sensei does not charge to train (novel eh?). Needless to say, he has not come back, nor did any or our students leave. If I see him again, I'll suggest for him to train with us.
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Old 05-29-2002, 11:57 PM   #18
chadsieger
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Ai symbol

If anyone is interested, I have posted a brief explanation of ki usage in Aikido.

Thanks for reading!
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Old 05-29-2002, 11:58 PM   #19
chadsieger
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Ai symbol

LOL. It's in GENERAL!
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Old 05-30-2002, 02:13 AM   #20
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by chadsieger
I don't care about organizations, I don't care about history or pride. I don't care about belts, I don't care about rankings. Aikido and martial arts in general hold so many more rewards.
I only ask so that some context can be provided. On these forums we have people ranging from only thinking about joining a dojo to those with a serious number of years under their belt - each and everyone provides their opinion. How far along the journey are you? It really is hard to determine that from your posts - at the moment I have you pegged as a hyper-enthusiastic beginner - please correct me if I'm wrong. Let me be clear, it's not the view of Ki that is causing the reaction it's the style. Craig Hocker for example is firmly entrenched in the Ki camp, he is listened to and debated with - no problems. He is also a known entity.

Organization: this forum is all about breaking down false barriers - still it provides context.

History: Can't dismiss that - it's where everything springs from. We are not re-inventing Aikido.

Belts/ranking/pride - doesn't seem to matter too much here. Criteria vary too broadly for it to mean much.

And gee - when I taught I took no money either. It's not that uncommon.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 05-30-2002, 02:56 AM   #21
erikmenzel
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Quote:
Originally posted by chadsieger
Firstly, I don't mean to offend anyone. My intention is not to preach or talk down to anyone.
Yet you seem to do so
Quote:
The purpose of my posts are simply to advise those just begining their martial arts journey, those who are dissatisfied with or just looking for more from their training, or those who simply are getting on in years and are looking for a way to make those old techniques still work now that the body is not so willing. If you have already decide not to persue the ki aspect of martial arts, than I am sorry and that is your decision. If you are still undecided as to its existence and purpose/usefulness in martial arts and especially Aikido, please feel free to read my posts.
Maybe using a more friendly and open style of writing instead of seemingly ranting about "How you or your teacher are right and the rest of the world does not have a clue about Ki, Aikido, Budo or the meaning of life, the universe and everthing else.
Quote:
I don't care about organizations
Fair enough, but don't use that as another reason for the proof of your rightousness.
Quote:
I don't care about history

Quote:
or pride.
Sofar everything you wrote seemed to be very pride orientated.
Quote:
I don't care about belts, I don't care about rankings.
Aikido and martial arts in general hold so many more rewards. Go through my posts looking for what you can use, not what to pick at. That's Aikido!
Why does everyone who seems to be "spreading the holy word" always complain that they are picked on??
Do the feeling of righteousness, the superiority complex and paranoia go hand in hand?
Quote:
Mr. Hocker, the visiting sensei was interestingly enough looking for new students at his local dojo.
Sad, but a simple reflection of the true world.
Quote:
My sensei does not charge to train (novel eh?).
Not really uncommon or unheard of. You claiming it to be special suggest you havent seen much of the real world yet.
Quote:
Needless to say, he has not come back, nor did any or our students leave. If I see him again, I'll suggest for him to train with us.
This is just another way of saying your right ad we are wrong. Just another way of saying you know best. Just another way of saying your sensei is better than mine (or something similar).

Frankly looking at your post I think I find them annoying and arrogant. Somehow they touch exactly that point in the forum that is to provock lots of responses.

Therefor I will now point my finger at you and shout "TROLL ,BEWARE THERE IS A TROLL IN THE WOODS"

Erik Jurrien Menzel
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Old 05-30-2002, 06:14 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by chadsieger
If you have already decide not to persue the ki aspect of martial arts, than I am sorry and that is your decision. If you are still undecided as to its existence and purpose/usefulness in martial arts and especially Aikido, please feel free to read my posts.
Hmm, first you'll have to define what you mean by the word, since, in my experience, most arguments start by centering around people arguing for (and against) different definitions.

Quote:
My sensei does not charge to train (novel eh?).
I've been actually paid for teaching exactly once, but that was more than 10 years ago, and was for a month long intensive training session (maybe some people can afford to take a month's vacation to teach, but not me...).

At two of the dojo that I train at currently, one dojo with two Aikikai 7th dans and one dojo with 3 shihans from assorted Aikido styles, nobody gets paid that I know of. The third dojo that I go to the instructor is actually paid and the fees are a little higher, but that's how he makes his living, so I don't begrudge him the money (he isn't rich, I've spent time at his house). At both of the dojo that I trained at in the US before I came back to Japan this time the instructors actually ran in the red some times because they ended up subsidizing things like the Christmas parties - so it's really not a very unusual thing.

OTOH, Morihei Ueshiba made his living off of Aikido for years, and so did (and does) Koichi Tohei, Gozo Shioda and many others, including Sokaku Takeda. Nothing wrong with that, as far as I'm concerned - everybody's got to eat, right?

Best,

Chris

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Old 05-30-2002, 07:04 AM   #23
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"Just because someone falls down, it doesn't mean the technique was done correctly. Atemi has often been used to cover up poor execution. "

Actually you missed my subtle point....rather than working with the technique uke decided to lecture me on where my "Ki" was directed. I simply distracted his "Intent" (or Ki or whatever you want to call it) and directed my energy into the throw.

As to the atemi comment, I suppose if one practices Aikido as a dance practice where uke and nage work cooperatively to perfect their "execution" this might be relevant. But I would contend from a martial viewpoint that failure to deliver atemi would consitute poor execution.
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Old 05-30-2002, 07:52 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by aiki_what
"Just because someone falls down, it doesn't mean the technique was done correctly. Atemi has often been used to cover up poor execution. "

Actually you missed my subtle point....rather than working with the technique uke decided to lecture me on where my "Ki" was directed. I simply distracted his "Intent" (or Ki or whatever you want to call it) and directed my energy into the throw.

As to the atemi comment, I suppose if one practices Aikido as a dance practice where uke and nage work cooperatively to perfect their "execution" this might be relevant. But I would contend from a martial viewpoint that failure to deliver atemi would consitute poor execution.
If someone made that comment to me, I would probably stop the technique and ask them to explain themselves. After listening to them, I'd have to decide if they're correct or mistaken. I've always been intensely interested in my mistakes. Perhaps that's just me.

As for doing atemi, I'm not against using it. However, how can anyone say they can do a technique, when uke is already falling down because of a strong atemi? As an experiment, try doing a technique without atemi, then do it with an atemi. Sometimes there is a real difference.

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Old 05-30-2002, 09:05 AM   #25
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Freaky!

"If someone made that comment to me, I would probably stop the technique and ask them to explain themselves. After listening to them, I'd have to decide if they're correct or mistaken. I've always been intensely interested in my mistakes. Perhaps that's just me.

As for doing atemi, I'm not against using it. However, how can anyone say they can do a technique, when uke is already falling down because of a strong atemi? As an experiment, try doing a technique without atemi, then do it with an atemi. Sometimes there is a real difference."

Ted,

Good points. I usually like to examine my mistakes "after" a technique (It drives me crazy to stop in the middle). Even though the way we practice usually deals with a pre-determined outcome I feel the intent during the technique should be one of constant adjustment.

As to the question of atemi, isn't all techinque after the initial disruption/blending of balance/ki/flow just icing on the cake independent of whatever it is you use to take charge of the momentum?

The technique is just the stuff that happens after you have either blended and/or established an advantage.
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