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Bruce Baker 04-20-2002 01:27 PM

Ki ball of energy
 
How many of you have attended a Ki seminar and made the Ki/chi energy ball?

If you didn't, why do you think you didn't?

Jonathan 04-20-2002 08:32 PM

A ki ball? Sounds like something off Dragonball Z. I have never made a ki ball. However, I have made a cheeseball...Does that count? What exactly is a ki ball? :confused:

IrimiTom 04-20-2002 09:27 PM

Bruce, I'm just wondering, since you didn't explain what a "Ki ball" is, how many people who didn't make one (and therefore probably don't know what it is) do you think know why they didn't do one?

Andy 04-20-2002 10:40 PM

Now I fully understand. Bruce was actually present on these boards before when his name was "Tim Greene".

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...&threadid=1313

Amendes 04-21-2002 12:34 AM

I recall certian parts about "The Art Of Kiai" in a recent book I read "Secrets Of The Samaurai" Also I have a real story at the end. Forgive the lengthy post.

"Kiai" is a compound of Ki and Ai.
Ki meaning mind and Ai the contraction of the verb awasu, signifying "to unite", As this combination suggests, it denotes a condition in which two mindes are united into one in such a manner that the stronger controls the weaker.


There is a certian legend regarding a samurai who was walking through the woods. He was surrounded with wolves. But he kept walking so aware, stable and potentialy explosive that the wolves were frozen with fear.

Other episodes recall men lying in ambush only to confront a victim who, simply by gazing at them, terrorized then so effectively that they were immobolized.

So there is an art of Kiai, but very little is known about it.

One real life expample of Ki that I can think of is my own masters story.

One day master was in the market with his grandfater holding his grandfathers hand and in the other hand his cane.

(the grandfather was very well known respected grandmaster martial artist may I add)

there was a comotion. It seemed a man stole a television set and was trying to run away from the shop keeper.

Since this was in the 60s he realized that the television was too big and heavy to make it. So he had to put it down to get away.
However he did not go far. The shop keeper caught up to the television and started to look at it to make sure it was ok.

The theif came up behind the shop keeper and pulled out a knife. The shop keeper was unaware of the thief behind him.

Just before the theif could stab him my master said that he could feel his grandfathers hand tighen around his hand.
And then his grandfather let out a Ki.

Everyone froze. The theif stoped and put away his knife and left immediatly.

PeterR 04-21-2002 01:33 AM

Hi Amendes;

I think a lot of the examples you used could better be described as Zanshin (presence). From wolves to thieves, they thrive on fear. In the cases you mentioned the aggressors (actual or potential) sensed this was not victim.

Prefer to read Ki as spirit in this context but not enough to quibble - mind works ok also.

However I see Kiai as much more explosive than Zanshin and as I am sure either of the Chuck's will be quick to point out (they've done so before) sound does not have to be involved.

Your story about your sensei's grandfather comes closest to kiai but even there the shout probably just brought attention to a man with a reputation. Zanshin once again.

As per Ki balls - please someone name a respected Budo (not Japanese manga) that actually refers to this concept. My Japanese sensei doesn't cut it - there are a lot of fools and charletons here also. I would want to know what he practices.

Erik 04-21-2002 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by PeterR
As per Ki balls - please someone name a respected Budo (not Japanese manga) that actually refers to this concept. My Japanese sensei doesn't cut it - there are a lot of fools and charletons here also. I would want to know what he practices.
There's this rockin' fellow:

http://www.ryokukai.com/Images/ki%20pics/image9.jpg

He can cure cancer too.

Ghost Fox 04-21-2002 01:21 PM

Re: Ki ball of energy
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Bruce Baker
How many of you have attended a Ki seminar and made the Ki/chi energy ball?

If you didn't, why do you think you didn't?

I have seen the exercise before, and I have practice the exercise a few times. I don't know what the official name is but I understand what you are trying to say.

My aikijitsu sensei had me sit in a horse stance with my hands in front (like holding a barrell) and imagine a ball of energy there. He also made me bring my hands together (but not touching) then move them apart. Imagining a ball of ki expanding a contracting.

I have heard of the exercise done in tai chi chuan, and some African martial arts.

It is also a practice in Hermetic Sciences.

Keep posting Bruce. I'll try my best to harmonize with your intentions.

:triangle: :circle: :square:

Ghost Fox 04-21-2002 01:26 PM

P.S. I was never too good at making ki balls. I know some people who have a lot more psychic potential than I do and find it quite easy.

I guess I just have to practice harder at it.

Kat.C 04-21-2002 01:40 PM

O.K. I don't even really know what ki is but I'm curious as to the point of making a ki ball. What is the purpose of doing this?

guest1234 04-21-2002 01:42 PM

I think some of this may be sensing either heat or (perhaps) some other form of energy from your hands, for instance, if you relax and close your eyes, you can bring your fingers almost to touching, or come close to touching someone else's hand, without touching. William Reed Sensei, in one of his books on Ki, (or I think, they are at work and I am at home) describes how you can make a cat purr by stroking near her body, but not actually touching her (I love doing this with my cats to amaze my friends :D ).

Anyway, I think perhaps one would get better at it not so much by trying harder, but by relaxing more and letting yourself be sensitive to what you are feeling.

Jorx 04-21-2002 03:33 PM

This is WAAAAYYYY too much of Mortal Kombat for me again. Am I the only one who is yet quite satisfied with the usual train-train-train thing? With the saying of Saito sensei that "Don't worry much about the philosophy. Train daily with bokken and morotetori kokyo-nage and you will understand the secrets Aikido." Am I the only one who thinks that at first I must master all the things QUITE REAL to my mind and then maybe I should move into another territories such as making ki-balls or ki-healing? Isn't this what Aikido is about? Isn't this WHY we start with slow and boring ai-hanmi grab attacks not with flashy roundhouse kicks and punches? What will we do next? Start teaching levitation to beginners? Turning invisible? Some claim that O'Sensei mastered those two things but I don't think one should pay attention to KI-BALLS if he doesn't feel that he is the perfect master of timing and skill. And I don't think that even mr. Baker is content enough to think he is.
Many of You folks like to babble about development and research of chi, pressure points etc etc. Why do we wan't to be magicians? We western ppl haven't grown up in that culture! Maybe we would get a glimpse into that after doing and researching the art for 30-40-more years. But I think that in the beginning we would be much more successful if we didn't want learn "magic" but proper angles, REAL anatomy, gravity, reaction times, physiology, autosuggestion, distances etc etc etc. PHYSICS and PSYCHOLOGY as in the way as they are strong and understandable in OUR culture. If we master those, maybe then peek into other possibilities. But nooo... most of us want to chi our unbendable arms into the faces of admirers forgetting that it's quite impossible to overcome the strength of mass and triceps only with biceps muscle.:grr:

Jorgen
Estonian Aikikai
Riveta Sportsclub

P.S. I'm sorry... that was quite an angry post. I think it is interesting to peek into these mystical things but putting an ephasis to these is rather a handicap I think. And somehow I have the feeling that many MA authorities dead and alive from different cultures would agree with me on that. I'm not a chi-sceptic, no. But I think one might get lost very easily when walking that way.

P.P.S.
Quote:

(I love doing this with my cats to amaze my friends ).
Colleen - Purring is a sign of irritation positive OR negative. And it is psychological. So there's nothing amazing in cats purring when you just put their hand close to them.

Napoleon 04-21-2002 05:09 PM

I'm not sure if it counts, but I can shoot fire from my fists at will. No, really. I just cry 'Haduken!' and out it comes.

guest1234 04-21-2002 06:02 PM

Hi Jorgen,

Don't get so excitable! I think if you try to remember the conversations on pressure points, you'll recall I am not a believer in them:D I am, however, trying to show what the people who 'feel' ki may be experiencing, and that it has nothing to do with psychic ability. Surely you have 'felt' someone standing close behind you before? I am relating what is seen as magic to what is real in our lives. It sounds like you are in an Iwama dojo, so I am not surprised about the intensity of your response, but turn it down a notch or two, OK?

Cats purr for a variety of reasons, and it can be anticipation of pleasure (or actual pleasure if they are sitting in your lap when you stroke the air above them). But even if they cannot see what your hand is doing, nor are then in your lap, they purr as you stroke the air above them. Since they don't normally purr with a breeze I don't think it is the movement of air that causes the purr, so it more likely is they feel the warmth from your hand somehow. Again, I don't have scientific research behind it, but it may be the warmth (as I said in my earlier post) that folks are sensing with their hands. You do need some sensitivity to feel this, more easily felt if you are relaxed vs tense, and so not necessarily easy to get from an Iwama viewpoint, which is fine. Perhaps one reason Saito Sensei says not to worry about it now, it will come later, is eventually in Iwama-style, as you learn the angles and stop using so much muscle, you relax more and hence feel more. I don't know, I've only done a little Iwama-style Aikido.

Some schools teach angles early, sensitivity late. Others sensitivity early, angles late. But eventually, it all gets taught. I know reversals are often a big deal to the Iwama folks I know, I've never seen Saito Sensei teach them, but I am betting it is the same as the techniques themselves: if person does 'A' then you do 'B'. If he does 'C' then you do 'D'... eventually, you will need to be able to feel what your partner is doing, be sensitive to his intentions early if your reversal is to be done cleanly and most easily (I think).

Jorx 04-22-2002 04:20 AM

Hello.. hello...

I try not to get so exited next time. And Colleen I wasn't in none of the points I made referring specifically to You:)

Anyhow - just for the record... if You had finished my post You could've read that ESTONIAN AIKIKAI stands under my name. Which is I don't train Iwama style but Aikikai.

And I think You got me a bit wrong. I will try to explain what I meant for You and others.

I just wanted to point out that things that many of you speak of as you are putting a great emphasis on that those things are beyond your comprehension. So you don't know EXACTLY WHAT you are doing. Therefore one should at first master the things which are understandable by ppl in this culture - as I was pointing out a strong side of science. It seems quite pointless to me when one does speak of chi as a great master but hasn't researched the points of physics and psychology (so mine is not the usual train-train-train Iwama viewpoint;) ). We can always ADD the mystical aspect of chi but we shouldn't start from it.

Have you ever considered the fact that best yonkyo circle radius is the length of uke's forearm? Ever considered the fact that the more far is one's point in one's body from his mass center (which surprise-surprise is generally the same spot as hara) the easier is to take the balance? Do you know how high one's heart rate and adrenaline flow must go before getting "tunnel vision"? Have you thought on the fact that "Two physical bodies cannot exist in the same confined space in the same time-space continuum." Sounds very Aiki to me.

I just wanted to point out that many questions asked in Aikido have very logical answers. And I just think that it is more efficient to be familiar with those logical answers before moving into what maybe be called as an uncharted area for us western ppl. Be the master of your five senses before using and depending on 6th, 7th etc. Master the study of launching plain simple kinethic energy on someones jaw and sitting on someones joints (crack) in proper angles and THEN try hurling chi balls wherever you want to hurl them. I think your progress in both sides will be way faster.

Jorgen
Estonian Aikikai
Riveta Sportsclub

P.S. To Colleen - as I said - positive or negative irritation. And ever considered the fact that they might HEAR you being there:)?

Magnus 04-22-2002 05:25 AM

Hi,
thanx for a very interesting thread. I think Jorgen is making some important points here. As a 6th kyu I admit that I sometimes long for "the secret knowledge of ki" (whatever it is) and "discovering a 6th sense" (partly because I'm interested in philosophy and Zen) rather than making sure that the steps are correct while performing irimi-nage, and I really have to struggle to have patience and practice "crawling" when my legs are eager to walk.

Before I attended some sessions with the superb aikidoka Mutsuko Minegishi (6th dan - one of the highest graded women in the world) I thought O-senseis talk about "becoming a universe" was rather esoteric. As she demonstrated a technique based on this principle however, I realized that this can be interpreted as a physical description about how you use centrifugal force to spin uke around your own static center.

And still, at the final session (for mostly beginners, and even some youngsters) she talked a lot about energy, and how the flow of energy concentrated in the palm even could have healing qualities (!). I do not understand what she meant by everything she said, but doesn't just the fact that she was talking about energy flow (which I see related to "ki" and as something "unwestern" and "unscientific" - PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong!) suggest that "ki" is and should be something we should try to be aware of all the way along the road (not just after shodan and higher)?

Just wanted to share some thoughts...:)

/Magnus

aiki_what 04-22-2002 06:21 AM

KI Balls
 
Never made Ki Balls. But I have a great recipe for Swedish Meat Balls.

Greg Jennings 04-22-2002 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ca
It sounds like you are in an Iwama dojo, so I am not surprised about the intensity of your response, but turn it down a notch or two, OK?

Colleen, could you elaborate on this?

Best Regards,

Bruce Baker 04-22-2002 07:57 AM

Focus energy into ...
 
Although I try to keep abreast of Dragon Ball Z so I have something to talk about with my kids as to what is fantasy and what is fact or reality, sometimes my comments to those fantastic responses in threads comes to a very old thought ...

Who is your doctor?

I want to get some of those drugs you are on?

Just kidding ... 1960s humor from long ago.

Anyway.

There are a number of massage and healing people who are able to generate heat from their hands, and that heat can be generated between the hands in the form of a ball.

When I went to a seminar last year, and we worked on various forms of rooting, energy exchange in techniques because of positive and negative energy in men and women, we also tried to form projection of this energy into a ball.

NOT unlike the magic of Static electricity to stick a baloon on the ceiling, some people did get enough energy going to create a very warm feeling between their hands. What was very neat was .... the teacher, couple of students (including myself because of some experience with this in the 1970s) were able to take this energy out from between the hands so there was almost no warmth, then put it back?

Hypnotism? Maybe, but too many skeptics from different karate dojos were in the room for that.

How does this affect basic Aikido training or what you learn to advance in Aikido ?

Those of you who are beginning, it might be too much. Those of you who are trying to figure out where scientific truth begins and a cartoons steal truth to turn it into fantasy (so you can teach your children from knowledge) ... maybe it brings you just a little closer to finding that ki/chi is not a myth, a fantasy or a miracle but it has parameters within science and the construction of the human bodys abilitys all along?
*********************************************
(there does a line help those of you stuck in on single frame of mind?)

Anger? Some anger in reaction to question ... interesting response? What is the thought process behind that anger? Find out.

I thought this was an open forum for questions and postulation of answers?

Believe me when I say, I know all about false messiah's and the blind faith of followers ... I have rained on too many parades by following a different path and saying "I told you so .." to blind angry Transcendental Meditation, Hari Krishna, and other types organizations which fell apart after a few years?

So, when I bring something to your attention, it is not by something that magically happened last month or last year, but over a lifetime of searching and bits of evidence pointing to a particular solution?
********************************************
KI/Chi ball?

Well, this is not something that happens without meditation, getting used to using your inner energy, or even with only studying the physical aspect of martial arts?

It comes with time, practice, and teacher or teachers who can give you pointers how to control projection and how to seal these points when you are done.

Believe it or not, it also relates to pressure points, even though you may never have the need to study or use this with your style of Aikido, there it is. Sealing the chi/ki points is almost the same as reviving pressure points ... never mind those of you with skeptical responses ... I was just trying to make you aware why you rub a strike or hit to your body to relieve the pain, even though it does a bit more than that.

******************************************

In closing:

You know ... I have never seen another continent or been to other countries besides the USA, Canada, or some resort islands, but I know there are other people, and other countries with people that somehow travel to the New York/Philadelphia area? I have met too many of them, learned as much if not more about their countrys from them as in books, or history/learning channel specials?

Also, I know first hand from charlatans, because I have watched more than my share fall from popularity to obscurity over time?

The Chi/Ki ball is not a new idea. Although bringing to notice to some of you, it might be new? As Far AS THROWING IT ... get real!

You would have to be able to move object with your mind to create that kind of energy, and no one has yet to come forward with a hint to that claim?

So please respond if you have tried this, or seen it with someone else, or talked about it with you teachers.

Although we have our normal Aikido practice in class, I think this forum should go beyond that into areas of interest, question, and maybe it will enlighten some of the dull repetition of Aikido class with new insight? There is lot of depth to MA's?

Believe it or not, we are leaving the industrial age to enter the scientific age of humanity? How about using some of that science to get into these strange things of Martial arts to see if they are a magicians trick, or indeed, a scientific phenonmenon?

:cool:

Andy 04-22-2002 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jorx
Anyhow - just for the record... if You had finished my post You could've read that ESTONIAN AIKIKAI stands under my name. Which is I don't train Iwama style but Aikikai.
Saito sensei is directly aligned with Aikikai Hombu Dojo, making his style Aikikai.

As for the rest of the thread, this stuff is right up there with reiki and magnetic healing as far as bunk goes.

Erik 04-22-2002 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Andy
Saito sensei is directly aligned with Aikikai Hombu Dojo, making his style Aikikai.

As for the rest of the thread, this stuff is right up there with reiki and magnetic healing as far as bunk goes.
Don't forget polarity therapy.

Steve 04-22-2002 01:46 PM

Re: Focus energy into ...
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Bruce Baker
SNIP

NOT unlike the magic of Static electricity to stick a baloon on the ceiling, some people did get enough energy going to create a very warm feeling between their hands. What was very neat was .... the teacher, couple of students (including myself because of some experience with this in the 1970s) were able to take this energy out from between the hands so there was almost no warmth, then put it back?
SNIP
:cool:

What do you mean by "take this energy out from between the hands ... then put it back"? Did you make a visible object that you placed on the mat -- or maybe suspended in mid air -- in front of you? Was this energy something that the others could see? A ball of light? Flames? A 9 volt battery? What? Or are you saying that your hands were warm, then cold, then warm again? Perhaps you could post a picture.

Jorx 04-22-2002 03:13 PM

Couple of short notices, I'll make a longer post later.

1. I didn't want to say that things as pressure points, reiki, ki in general was magic. I wanted to point out that many of those "westeners" who are so eager to learn those want to BE magicians and LEARN magical things.

2. Saito is still the head of Iwama isn't he? Anyhow that doesn't matter. If you would know the current state of Aikido in Estonia you would laugh over such question as "what kind of style of Aikido you train?"

3. Creating a ball of heat with hands - at least thinking on this metaphore, no, not possible.

4. Positive and negative energy? What KIND of energy is it?

5. Chi has parameters of science. Good. Then let's keep this concept in these parameters. Physiology, timing, reaction, psychology, physics etc - they cover this concept from various aspects. Yet there's no proof for the mystical ENERGY. (Of course as I said we didn't know electricity was there or magnetic fields couple of hundreds of years ago.)

6. I don't consider myself a chi-sceptic, nor very narrow minded:P (who would) Another thing what I wanted to point out is that these kinds of ideas turn Aikido into some sort of fairy tale in eyes of ppl who know nothing about it and who are yet beginners/haven't thought on these things. Back to wanting to BE magicians.

7. Just a nice explanation one of my fellow sempai gave about the universe and doing techniques: Consider the size of the Universe. Now consider the size of yourself and the length and effort of the movement you have to do to sucessfully make the throw. Ridiculously small and easy that is.

So is our discussion... but who cares... let's continue.

Jorgen
Estonian Whateverthatstyleis
Riveta Sportsclub

P.S. - Anger - not exactly but why anyway? Of course because someone rocks my cozy point of view that's why;)

William 04-23-2002 01:43 AM

Ki Balls
 
I was a bit surprised to see the comment, 'the saying of Saito sensei that "Don't worry much about the philosophy. Train daily with bokken and morotetori kokyo-nage and you will understand the secrets Aikido."' being read IMHO as, Don't pay any attention to the philosophy.

To my mind the philosophy of Aikido is central to my practice of Aikido. I think that people are all to quick to forget that O'Sensei was also a famous philosopher, and that at the core of Aikido is a very profound philosophy. You can practice Aikido without the philosophy and still benefit, and if the philosophy bothers you don't stress it (which is my reading of the above quote), but I don't think that O'Sensei ever meant Aikido to be just another form of combat.

As for Ki Balls,I was making those before I ever started Aikido. If the word Ki gives you issues, simply call it a more western, rationalist term, Energy. Any biochemist will tell you that we generate large amounts of biochemical energy, and that many of the basic Ki techniques are just training yourself to discern this more clearly (much like training someone as a wine taster).

Changing the term and adding a rationalist explanation doesn't change the facts though, and does make you appear a little shallow. Its like claiming that America didn't really exist until Europeans 'discovered' it :)

PeterR 04-23-2002 03:38 AM

Re: Ki Balls
 
Quote:

Originally posted by William
I was a bit surprised to see the comment, 'the saying of Saito sensei that "Don't worry much about the philosophy. Train daily with bokken and morotetori kokyo-nage and you will understand the secrets Aikido."' being read IMHO as, Don't pay any attention to the philosophy.
Well lets just say famous amoung those who practice Aikido. Still you are right that it is doubtful Saito sensei was talking about a total exclusion of philosophy.

What he probably was discouraging was an over emphasis on same to the detriment of hard training. The whole point of Budo is that the physical training brings you to self realization.


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