Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Kevin Leavitt wrote: ... you realize during the seminar that you simply have not even developed your body enough to begin to understand structurally or kinesthetically what they are attempting to communicate.

... and hence you do not have the conceptual tools to look at your own performance later and say "go/nogo" on whether it is uptrend or downtrend for the goal

Kevin Leavitt wrote: All the labeling and documentation cannot help with this process I think. I like the Airplane example you provide Erick. It really drives the point home for me. I personally agree with you that this stuff should and can be described much like how you get an airplane to fly. However, intellectually understanding that, does not mean I can actually fly the 747. ... No, doing this stuff is more like flying a wright flyer in which it is totally seat of the pants by feel.

You are righter than I think you meant. The labelling does not help with the flying -- it helps with building the vehicle. The body is at once the instrument and the object of work. As with the the Wrights, you must not only fly the plane correctly -- but also design, and construct the plane so that it should fly at all, much less fly optimally (and rebuild it after many a crash). That was a process of trial and error to find the correct shapes as well. But we know much more than they did about the parameters of good and bad design and the nature of the things that make it work or not work, so we can name the problems we are trying to fix and therefore more easily find solutions made by others.

Rob Liberti wrote: When I learned such things the lines of intent were not identified and burned in. I had no idea where and how to direct my mental intention, and how to hold it in many opposing directions with the slack out of my body. People said things like "just relax". I sincerely doubt that the people saying and teaching such things had the lines of intent identified and burned in any structured way if at all. I sincerely doubt that the people saying and teaching such things had any idea where and how to direct their mental intentions, and how to hold it in many opposing directions with the slack out of their body to any degree . I admit I did not learn those exercises from Saotome sensei or Gleason initially. But the person I did learn those from did study directly with Tohei sensei for a long time and was very powerful for the standards of the time.

I will ask you a straightforward question about your imagery. Imagery tends to be concrete, and is better guide than not, IMO, because structural intuitions work well on concrete images. If I asked you to envision in an concrete image, what the lines of intent looked like as they relate to the windings in the body that take out the slack -- does it look to you anything like this:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/attach...9&d=1215185239

Erick Mead wrote: But. (And Ark is to be commended for his public approach to matters, so this is in no way critical). Things like this or this or this -- are not in any way surprising to me, nor anything out of my own experience and performance. It is not that I quibble with methods if they work, proof is in the pudding, I suppose. It is just that the results are not materially different. There is nothing in those or in this (which has been presented as another example of IT), that is beyond me. I watch the double "whip-saw" motion of the opponent's head at 00:30-00:36 and I know EXACTLY what is happening to him, and how to do it. Maybe they all have faster, better ways of getting there, I reserve judgment -- but if IT is what Ark does -- IT is not novel nor unknown, though it may be a bit neglected here and there..

I find it very hopeful that there is another person who can do what Ark, Dan, Mike, and Chen Bing are doing. That someone else can work with grapplers, wrestlers, Aikido shihan, karate shihan, and high ranking Chinese martial artists and can replicate not only what is on the videos that you noted, but also what they've written as well.

It is encouraging to a lot of people that there is someone else that they can go to and train with and learn these internal skills that we are all trying to learn. The load on Mike, Dan, and Ark can be split between 4 people instead of 3.

Ark sort of travels on the coasts while Mike makes sporadic workshops. Dan is in the northeast and now you are in the south. I think it's a great coverage of the U.S. I'm sure that a lot of people would come train with you.

If anyone has a chance to train with Erick and is in the area, his dojo information is below.

It will be interesting to see, Erick, how your teaching methodology compares to Dan, Mike, and Ark. We have quite a few people who have posted about comparing/contrasting methodology between Dan, Mike, and Ark; so it's going to be illuminating when we can add yours to the others.

Erick, I just gotta say, thanks for stepping up and stating that these things are not beyond you, not out of your 24 years of experience, that you know exactly what's going on, and are not outside your performance. There are loads of people out there trying to get training with Mike, Dan, and Ark. Now that we have a fourth person, I'm pretty sure those in your area will look you up. Probably people outside your area, too, since a few from California came to Dan's seminar.

Info:

http://www.aikidowestflorida.com

2447 Executive Plaza, Suite 5, Pensacola, Florida 32504

Class Schedule is:
Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday from 6:30pm until 8pm
Saturday from 10am-11:30am (Weapons Class using Bokken and Jo)

This is all very normal. H.A.F.E. Don't panic.

Rob Liberti wrote: Mary, I'm absolutely clear that you are satisfied with your level of IT, with the speed at which you have developed your level of IT, and with the speed at which you have developed a level of IT in your students. What I was attempting to say was that the amount/depth of IT has been dramatically increased and the speed to develop such a significant level of IT has been dramatically reduced making a much more deep level of IT possible within a lifetime - to the absurd point that compared to that level, I can say that pretty much everyone - including 1.5 million members of aikido - do not have IT.

Hi Rob -

Please correct me if I'm wrong, this is how I read what you have written above:

You seem to be saying that while IT may be experienced by any number of Aikido practitioners, the amount/depth of their/our experience of IT is so insignificant when compared to, say, Dan that we can pretty much agree that it can't even be measured on the same scale. Also, there are training methodologies out there that allow for a quicker and much deeper development of IT than exist within the Aikido paradigm.

I'm totally ok with accepting your conclusions at face value. Between the lines your statement gives rise to some other interesting deductions. First your acknowledgement that within Aikido there are people who do indeed have IT although at a relatively insignificant level of development. Second, this leads to the idea that within Aikido there must already exist methods of teaching IT, albeit methods that require long periods of study on the part of the student; long periods that on average yield results that pale when compared to the methods you have been introduced to while studying with Dan.

So while, when speaking in a relative sense, IT may not be present in modern day Aikido due to differences of orders of magnitude in demonstrable results, I don't think that IT is missing in Aikido in any absolute sense. I think it's pretty much a matter of choice as to where the student wants to focus his/her training, a focus mind you, which is apt to change over the course of the students Aikido life.

I don't see IT as being an endstate of my Aikido study; nor is it the primary focus of my efforts. The development of IT has been an integral part of my Aikido, but only a part, not the whole. In the past you have written that you'd like the power of Superman and while you may have been writing somewhat tongue in cheek I can understand your desire to possess that kind of power. It's very seductive.

All the best in your training.

Ron

David Skaggs wrote: Rob, Your sensei is William Gleason Sensei. He learned from an impressive list of respected sensei: Doshu Kisshomaru Ueshiba Yamaguchi Seigo Sensei. Takeda Sensei Osawa Sensei, Watanabe Sensei, Koichi Tohei Sensei, Sasaki Sensei, Endo Sensei, Saotome Sensei. I do not intend any disrespect to you Rob or the sensei in your lineage so with all due respect to your sensei and his sensei; Is there anyone on the above list you think did not have aiki? Where do you think the disconnect was in the transmission of aiki in your lineage? David :

Perhaps I am just getting dumber watching this thread go round and round, but I simply can't see how having the answer to your questions in any way helps you understand anything about how to improve your Aikido. It is almost like you are trying to prove some point to yourself, and in the process somehow help Rob, in this case, improve his own Aikido, or better understand yours. Again, seeking any of those results makes no sense to me whatsoever. What I can definitely say at this point is that your whole approach exhibited in this thread does not seem to be moving you forward one inch. Of course you might just reply that you don't feel like you need to move forward one inch, to which I can only wonder, "then what is your point?." This is not an example of Aiki in terms of approach, methodology or result. Therefore I judge thee un-aiki, at least in those terms.

Truly, until you come together in the real world and feel for yourself what it is that someone of Mike or Dan's caliber is exhibiting, how can you expect anyone to accept your motivations, regardless of whatever intentions with which you manifest them, be seen as anything worthy of serious engagement?

Should you simply get out there and feel things for yourself, your words would carry a weight that is simply missing from them at this juncture. Imagine you came back and feel the same way you now do, at least then you could talk from experience. That alone would server you well. More importantly, your ability to speak to the subject would carry you far to helping the Aikido community as a whole, which is what you seem to want to do today.

Best in training (and Aiki) to you and all...

.

Ummm, FWIW, I will be in over at Hurlburt Field doing some work over near Fort Walton Beach for the next two weeks! Right outside of Pensacola!

Ron, I believe you re-expressed what I believe very well. Our only point of divergence is that in comparison to the IT that is now available, I feel that an infinitesimal amount of IT doesn't even count as IT. In much the same way that I don't think of even a strong gust of wind as a hurricane.

For just one example of many: IT is the only way I can see an aikidoka having any real chance of doing minimum damage to an attacker that is say attacking someone you care about near you.

I agree that the power of IT is seductive. I feel it is positive seduction. I *personally* would feel it to be negative seduction if I paid good money for AIKIdo and only got an infinitesimal amount of aiki -do when highly developed AIKI was readily available (which is going to be the case more and more). But that's just me, and for the record I'd ALSO like the power of green lantern.

Rob

Ron Ragusa Wrote:

So while, when speaking in a relative sense, IT may not be present in modern day Aikido due to differences of orders of magnitude in demonstrable results, I don't think that IT is missing in Aikido in any absolute sense. I think it's pretty much a matter of choice as to where the student wants to focus his/her training, a focus mind you, which is apt to change over the course of the students Aikido life. I don't see IT as being an endstate of my Aikido study; nor is it the primary focus of my efforts. The development of IT has been an integral part of my Aikido, but only a part, not the whole. In the past you have written that you'd like the power of Superman and while you may have been writing somewhat tongue in cheek I can understand your desire to possess that kind of power. It's very seductive.

I agree whole heartedly Ron! I think it is important to not become over obsessed with this.

However, I also see great value i concentrating my practice on some thing that have not been emphasized in my training.

It gets frustrating training for years and years and then hitting a plateau where you really don't progress much.

The big eye opener for me in training especially with Ark is that I have not been doing alot of simple things that were holding me back.

The big thing for me was basically getting my body in better shape and conditioning it. That was a start for me.

I do agree though that everything needs to be done in moderation, and this is not the only thing that needs to be focused on or valued in what we do. BUT it shouldn't also be an excuse not to put in the hard work. (No Whiners please!...that is my motto!)

Rob Liberti wrote: For just one example of many: IT is the only way I can see an aikidoka having any real chance of doing minimum damage to an attacker that is say attacking someone you care about near you. I agree that the power of IT is seductive. I feel it is positive seduction. I *personally* would feel it to be negative seduction if I paid good money for AIKIdo and only got an infinitesimal amount of aiki -do when highly developed AIKI was readily available (which is going to be the case more and more). But that's just me, and for the record I'd ALSO like the power of green lantern.

Exactly. There's nothing wrong with Aikido nor is Aikido "missing" anything... except what so many people missed because the information wasn't laid out for every casual observer. Aikido doesn't need other arts to complement it, it just needs a little bit more knowledge about what ki actually/functionally is. And BTW... I think people are just chipping at the surface. Does anyone think that so much of Asia was enamored of a simple overlay to martial-arts, qigong, etc., .. or was it much deeper than that?

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Erick Mead wrote: I will ask you a straightforward question about your imagery. Imagery tends to be concrete, and is better guide than not, IMO, because structural intuitions work well on concrete images. If I asked you to envision in an concrete image, what the lines of intent looked like as they relate to the windings in the body that take out the slack -- does it look to you anything like this: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/attach...9&d=1215185239

Of course that is an aspect of it. But it's limited in many ways that I continue to encourage you to go feel IT and describe/model it yourself. This approach kind of reminds me of when I did EE. I tried to start every single problem from f=ma, and it can be done. In this case, it is not that easy - for me anyway. Erick, I am so consistently impressed with your mind. Please go feel this and stop trying to get me to model IT for you... I can't do it. I don't think anyone can, but I believe you need to experience that for yourself.

Rob

Shaun Ravens wrote: Perhaps I am just getting dumber watching this thread go round and round,but I simply can't see how having the answer to your questions in any way helps you understand anything about how to improve your Aikido.

I am not surprised Shaun, I don't think you understand what this entire thread is about.

David

David Skaggs wrote: I am not surprised Shaun, I don't think you understand what this entire thread is about. David

Yes David,

You are right, once again... It should have been ever so clear to me given the strength of logic found within your posts

OK, then... if we start off with where you are now, it is just as evident that if you work hard enough you can come back as Bruce Baker in your next life

...and now you are officially a troll.

Enjoy!

Mike Sigman wrote: And BTW... I think people are just chipping at the surface.

Agreed. I actually said that too:

Rob Liberti wrote: Dan tells us that he is just learning it, and Mike keeps reminding us that what we are experiencing (which Dan openly admits) is the tip of the iceberg.

It's just that I'm a lot more interested in discovering that iceberg from Dan's approach because it serves my other goals quite well.

David, I know you wrote the original post, but I do not believe that an entire thread has to be "defined" by the original post. The thread just starts there, and then it kind of takes on a life of its own with many many POINTS that are just connected in some way. Otherwise, it wouldn't be a thread. The initial point of the thread was three things IIRC:
1) presupposing that the members of aikikai felt that IT was not present (which I do not agree they will typically agree with)
2) stating you did not feel IT was missing - which seemed to be a way of saying your approach was just fine, and
3) further questioning if other aikido organizations felt that they missed out on IT - which I took as you looking for some kind of support that either everyone else missed IT but your lineage OR if some other people felt their lineage had IT.

In this case, however, I think Shaun's assessment it quite in line with the OP.

Rob

Shaun Ravens wrote: ...and now you are officially a troll.[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)
In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional or disciplinary response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

Shaun I started this thread and have contributed to it throughout the entire thread. You are a late comer to the discussion who does not understand what the thread is about.

David

Rob Liberti wrote: In this case, however, I think Shaun's assessment it quite in line with the OP. Rob

Hi Rob,

Are you suggesting with your above statement that my opinion regarding if Aikido is missing it is in line with David's?

Interestingly, and I don't want to speak for David on this, my ideas on the subject have both developed anew on certain issues as well as have remained the same in some regards. I have learned quite a bit about what others (those whose approaches/methods/ideas have value to me) are thinking (from what they have said here). I have also refined my own rebuttal to certain aspects of arguments those same individuals try to pass off using flimsy evidence to restate conclusions that tend to put them at the top of the heap, so to speak. At the same time, I am certainly more comfortable stating that I believe people like David and Erick go and train with people outside their own comfort zones, as I know they will not have any real understanding until they do, but more importantly because of how they will help others once they do. Again, I am not speaking for David, as to whether or not he has moved far forward from where he was at when he made the original post. I know that i am. However, from what I can tell David and other posters, too, seem to be asking the same questions, making the same assumptions and coming to the same conclusions as they always have and that is that they already have everything they need and are completely comfortable with the path they are on and have no intention of deviating from it.

I can unequivocally state that is the absolute antithesis to my own approach, as I know if that were my attitude, I would never reach my own goals.

Best in training to you and all...

.

David Skaggs wrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet) In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional or disciplinary response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion. Shaun I started this thread and have contributed to it throughout the entire thread. You are a late comer to the discussion who does not understand what the thread is about. David

Yes David,

You are right, once again... It should have been ever so clear to me given the strength of logic found within your posts. I mean I am absolutely clueless with regards to things found within Aikido. I can't imagine why I have been wasting my time here on Aikiweb and should immediately stop posting and wasting countless bytes on the internet.

I am sure that now you will block me, as I have absolutely nothing to offer you...along with anyone else who finds your approach annoying enough to step up and tell you,

Is that how they do it in Ohio? Please tell me you are oh-so-unique!

....................................When



....................................equals



Best in training to you and all others who will never get it...

.

Mike Sigman wrote: Exactly. There's nothing wrong with Aikido nor is Aikido "missing" anything... except what so many people missed because the information wasn't laid out for every casual observer. Aikido doesn't need other arts to complement it, it just needs a little bit more knowledge about what ki actually/functionally is. And BTW... I think people are just chipping at the surface. Does anyone think that so much of Asia was enamored of a simple overlay to martial-arts, qigong, etc., .. or was it much deeper than that? FWIW Mike Sigman

Well, that's one view.
There is more to what is wrong with modern aikido than what ki alone can fix, and more to internal power than just ki. Further, the disconnect between Ueshiba and the rest of modern aikido does not rest soley on ki either. Internal power and internal skills are inexorably intertwined with movement for very good reasons and strengthening the ki paradigm in a modern aikidoka will not begin to cover it.
Nor will it help with an aikidoka who wishes to strengthen his art to handle very stressfull encounters. Ueshiba did not move or carry his body like a modern aikidoka, right from the start and Ki alone will never fix that either. You would have to understand aikido, internal power, and classical movement;with and without weapons in order to see it and teach it. Not everyone is up to the task, that's why it's good to be careful out there.
Cheers
Dan

Rob Liberti wrote: The initial point of the thread was three things IIRC: 1) presupposing that the members of aikikai felt that IT was not present (which I do not agree they will typically agree with) [2) stating you did not feel IT was missing - which seemed to be a way of saying your approach was just fine, and 3) further questioning if other aikido organizations felt that they missed out on IT - which I took as you looking for some kind of support that either everyone else missed IT but your lineage OR if some other people felt their lineage had IT.

Post #1

David Skaggs wrote: Is it just the people who practice Aikikai Aikido who feel that something is missing in their practice ( internal strength, connection, intent, etc) or do the people who practice Yoseikan Aikido, Yoshinkan Aikido, Shodokan Aikido and Korindo Aikido feel that there is something missing also?David

Post #135

David Skaggs wrote: My question was posed to bring out what the people who practice Aikido ( not me) who post on Aikiweb felt was missing in their Aikido to gauge the state of Aikdo today. I have read that there is approaching 1.5 million people practicing Aikido just under the Aikikai umbrella. An additional question would be how representative are the people who post here are to the entire Aikido community.David

Post 352

David Skaggs wrote: . " Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?" thread was started after reading on internet posts from people inside and outside of Aikido that somethings were missing or not taught correctly in todays Aikido. The basics I was taught some 20 years ago when I first started Aikido included what is shown on this website,http://www.iay.org.uk/internal-strength/ and in this video http://video.google.com/videosearch?...en&emb=0&aq=f#. different words but the same thing. Then I read that there were approaching 1.5 million people under the Aikikai umbrella practicing Aikido. Hence the thought is the things these people are saying are missing or not taught (IT) missing in over 1.5 million ( this includes those outside of Aikikai) people's Aikido. David

No Ron the initial point of the thread was to have a discussion just like this thread has turned out to be.

Shaun Ravens wrote: Are you suggesting with your above statement that my opinion regarding if Aikido is missing it is in line with David's?

Sorry, for any confusion. I was responding to this:

David Skaggs wrote: I am not surprised Shaun, I don't think you understand what this entire thread is about.

That I agreed with your assessment in post 531:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=531

The thread moved on a bit before my statement.

Rob

David, you mention post 135. but you left out the part that I was thinking about (which I admit I thought was in the OP):

David Skaggs wrote: After a 17 year hiatus I came back to formal practice in Aikido. During the hiatus I practice on my own the things that I was taught. I started practicing again at a dojo and spent a lot of time reading the martial art forums ( no internet 20 years ago) and asking questions here on Aikiweb to find out what I had missed. The talk about what is not present or taught in Aikido confused me. The descriptions of what is missing was present in what I was taught some twenty years ago. My question was posed to bring out what the people who practice Aikido ( not me) who post on Aikiweb felt was missing in their Aikido to gauge the state of Aikdo today. I have read that there is approaching 1.5 million people practicing Aikido just under the Aikikai umbrella.

The part I bolded is where I got the second point I made:
"2) stating you did not feel IT was missing - which seemed to be a way of saying your approach was just fine"

And my response was best stated in post 84:

Rob Liberti wrote: I'm starting to think about what exactly is the difference between a client and a student? What is the difference between a dojo and a McDojo? And, most interestingly, if "aiki" becomes main-stream will that bar be raised for that line between student/client and dojo/McDojo? Something to think about anyway.

Rob

...and now you are officially a troll.

Finally, the truth is told.

Mr. Skaggs does not train, and has misrepresented his experience and skill. I am able to say this due to his short stint at my dojo, approximately three months.

Mr. Skaggs stated that he trained under Charles Cycyk Sensei, at the long defunct Youngstown Aikikai. Cycyk Sensei was a unique individual, and passed away years ago. I was an acquaintance of his, not a student or close friend.
Without going any further, unless Mr. Skaggs pushes the envelope, I will leave it at that being enough said.

Mickey Gelum

Rob Liberti wrote: The part I bolded is where I got the second point I made: "2) stating you did not feel IT was missing - which seemed to be a way of saying your approach was just fine"

During my seventeen years hiatus I read the books that I had, watched the movies that I had and other then a few months in the middle of the hiatus ( where I reinjured my knee) I did not practice in a dojo or have contact with other people practicing Aikido. My practice was mostly solo and some with my son.

When I decided to return to Aikido and started to research on the internet I was surprised by what people were saying what was not in Aikido, the stuff I was taught some twenty years ago. The bolded sentence was my surprise at what was supposedly missing.

David

Michael Gelum wrote: Finally, the truth is told. Mr. Skaggs does not train, and has misrepresented his experience and skill. I am able to say this due to his short stint at my dojo, approximately three months. Mr. Skaggs stated that he trained under Charles Cycyk Sensei, at the long defunct Youngstown Aikikai. Cycyk Sensei was a unique individual, and passed away years ago. I was an acquaintance of his, not a student or close friend. Without going any further, unless Mr. Skaggs pushes the envelope, I will leave it at that being enough said. Mickey Gelum

I was a student of Sensei Cycyk and a friend. I trained with Sensei CyCyk some twenty years ago.
I currently do not practice due to physical problems, mainly my knees, which I have posted on this thread and others.

As far as how long you were my Sensei, I have the attendance records of the Aikido Club at my church , a satellite of your dojo, that you were the sensei at to prove how long I was your student.

From the dojo listing of the JAA/USA website (Shodokan Aikido)
http://www.tomiki.org/members.html

Ohio
Churchill Aikido Club Sensei Michael Gelum 189 Churchill-Hubbard Rd
Liberty, OH
330-219-0146
SenseiArashi@WarrenBudokan.com
http://warrenbudokan.com M-W 6:00-8:00

This video was shot at my church's Aikido Club.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...+aikido+&hl=en

David

David Skaggs wrote: When I decided to return to Aikido and started to research on the internet I was surprised by what people were saying what was not in Aikido, the stuff I was taught some twenty years ago. The bolded sentence was my surprise at what was supposedly missing.

Got it. And Posts:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=530
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=533

...sum up my position about what IS missing.

So I've been saying go check out Dan and Mike, and it turns out that you are not even training regularly. I take it back, please do not go see Dan or Mike.

Rob