Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?

Oisin Bourke wrote: Oh credits his success at batsmanship to Kochi Tohei. There's footage of Oh practicing while standing on one leg. Learned from Tohei. I suspect Ichiro learned something interesting from someone. That's all I have to say...

Wouldn't surprise me, either. I was at an M's game Tuesday - Ichiro has a remarkable physical presence at the plate. You can nearly feel his kime in the stands.

Pat

oops. Sorry for getting off track! Should have finished reading the latest in the thread before responding.

Pat

David Skaggs wrote: umm.... Okay when doing ikkyo where do you do "bouncing off the knees" like O'Sensei demonstrated? A video would be helpful. David

Wow...

I haven't used the term troll in quite a few years, but...

David,

In an effort to encourage you to raise the level of discourse I really need to say the following:

Regardless of the sincerity with which you come to the forums, there comes a point in time where just questioning everything in the manner indicated in some/many of your recent posts will cause those interested in meaningful discourse (at least) along with those who may actually provide a positive influence on you to back away from you entirely.

In simple-speak, the way in which your questions come across is that you are either 12 or have a learning disorder, or the like. I am not criticizing you should either be the case. However I simply refuse to believe that you are unable to process the information, so that leaves your motivations up for question.

Seriously man, catch up! If you can't, and even if you don't want to, reach out and find someone who will help you either see the points being made, improve your aikido/martial paradigm so that you can see the points being made, or at the very least persuade you from continuing to devalue the conversation by repeatedly questioning with Why? or How?

Best in training to you and all...

PS - Web_nostalgia=Do_not_feed_the_trolls

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Rob Liberti wrote: The body skills being used to LIFT them up and bounce them off his knee MIGHT just be the same skills that he used to lift people up off their balance when attacking shomen to do his ikkyo. Maybe he wasn't just pushing their arm to the uke's elbow with muscle strength... Look at ANY of his videos. Steve Wonder could see it.

I agree -- obvious, when you see what you are looking at. And so its name is not muscular strength. Then what is its name?

Not a label like "skills" or "internal strength" -- a name that calls it what it is and relates it by name to other things of the same family.

"The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right name."

David Skaggs wrote: I agree. They an are indication of what Tohei called the coordination of mind and body (internal aiki). But the jo trick, head push, etc are not in any techniques that I have practiced or seen practiced in Aikido.

Actually the essence of the jo trick and the head push are exactly the same -- and are contained in the tai no henko. When pushed -- make a tangent.

Erick Mead wrote: "The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right name."

Actually, it pays to point out that the beginning of wisdom, as you call it was the end of knowledge.

Let's face it, no one needs to know the name of kindness or love to know when it is present. Just as surely, one most certainly knows without being told when it is absent. Conversely, one can talk about kindness and love all day long and still not manifest its presence.

Wisdom has its place of importance only among the unwise. Knowledge, however unattainable, transcends wisdom every time.

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Yikes...

Good call Shaun.

Erik...if you call it what it is (ki skills) people roll their eyes and make whoowhoo sounds. At least in my experience.

That (and other parts of this discussion) is why I really am getting to the point of ignoring most of this...

Best,
Ron

Erick Mead wrote: Actually the essence of the jo trick and the head push are exactly the same -- and are contained in the tai no henko. When pushed -- make a tangent.

So how is "make a tangent" a better description than "skills" or "internal strength"? Didn't you just say:

Not a label like "skills" or "internal strength" -- a name that calls it what it is and relates it by name to other things of the same family.

Besides, I don't agree with your analysis. I think you're leaving out something very important.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Ron Tisdale wrote: Yikes... Good call Shaun. Erik...if you call it what it is (ki skills) people roll their eyes and make whoowhoo sounds. At least in my experience.

But I have said my piece on that one: http://www.aikiweb.com/blogs/but-why...dialogue-3404/

I don't disagree that that is a correct name. But only in the context in which it was developed or is used consistently for the same thing. That is where the breakdown has occurred... not everybody uses that terminology for the same thing -- and it has lost its intended concrete reference.

The reason is not nefarious -- we have a different context, and it would make sense to name it in our context -- and a correct name out of context is just another label -- which comes perilously close to becoming a facile marketing-speak ..

"X-power Skill" --- "New and improved! Now with Ki-Enhanced Phosphorene Complex!! -- for Added Strength!". (offernotgoodinNewJerseyorIdaho)

Shaun Ravens wrote: Wisdom has its place of importance only among the unwise. Knowledge, however unattainable, transcends wisdom every time.

Knowledge is being aware that fire can burn;
wisdom is remembering the blister.
A person without wisdom will
always get burned.

David

Mike Sigman wrote: So how is "make a tangent" a better description than "skills" or "internal strength"? Didn't you just say:

As descriptions go -- for one thing it is specific and functional.

Mike Sigman wrote: Besides, I don't agree with your analysis. I think you're leaving out something very important.

Well, that was the question posed, but by all means, let us leave nothing out. "Charlie don't surf."

David Skaggs wrote: Knowledge is being aware that fire can burn; wisdom is remembering the blister. A person without wisdom will always get burned. David

and...

Scars speak for themselves, David

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Erick Mead wrote: As descriptions go -- for one thing it is specific and functional.

So, if someone asked (according to your theory) Ueshiba how he did the head trick or jo trick, an answer of "make a tangent" would be specific and functional enough for someone to learn from? Frankly, I don't think it would shed much light specifically or functionally. Using terms like "tangent", "angular momentum", "shear", and so on are actually broadly general terminology, not specific or explicative in any helpful sense.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Shaun Ravens wrote: Wisdom has its place of importance only among the unwise. Knowledge, however unattainable, transcends wisdom every time.

I wonder, is it wise to try to transcend even a weak wisdom using an unattainable knowledge?

THey don't help me. I always have to go pull out a physics book to remember the definitiions. Then I have to apply it in the context of alot of other things going on at the same time..you know...the phsyciality of the exercise. That is breathing, weight shift, balance, timing, intent and all that stuff that makes up the totality of the situation we are trying to reproduce.

Stan Baker wrote: How to develope Aiki in a step by step process is what is missing in Aikido, this is the main point. stan

Ki development practiced with technique provides the step by step process right along with aikido training.
Mary

Mike Sigman wrote: So, if someone asked (according to your theory) Ueshiba how he did the head trick or jo trick, an answer of "make a tangent" would be specific and functional enough for someone to learn from? Frankly, I don't think it would shed much light specifically or functionally. Using terms like "tangent", "angular momentum", "shear", and so on are actually broadly general terminology, not specific or explicative in any helpful sense.

I see... It plainly lacks the clarity and dead-on, recipe quality of the terms: "internal strength" and "skills."

And no, I suspect Ueshiba would slap him, for asking. On the other hand, he advocated others doing just this sort of thing, though it was not his cup of tea, so there's my imprimatur.

It is descriptive with a precise, physically applicable, concrete meaning -- it describes functionally and points directly to several large bodies of applicable concepts, freely available -- even if does not in itself exhaust the topic.

I can come a good bit closer to the latter -- if you really wish.

Kevin Leavitt wrote: THey don't help me. I always have to go pull out a physics book to remember the definitions. Then I have to apply it in the context of alot of other things going on at the same time..you know...the phsyciality of the exercise. That is breathing, weight shift, balance, timing, intent and all that stuff that makes up the totality of the situation we are trying to reproduce.

I am not supplanting rigorous practice with book-learning or dragging an engineering handbook on the mat. This is contemplative stuff, to do before and after to see the relationships dimly felt more objectively and hopefully more clearly. There are definable relationships in structure and dynamic that have names and precisely definable actions. They are in those books and will aid your visualization/proprioception and planning for more training.

Here I do this, on the mat I train. But they are not separate, even so. The mountain is the mountain whether in the plane looking down or in the valley looking up. The plane will help you see some routes better, though.

Oisin Bourke wrote: Oh credits his success at batsmanship to Kochi Tohei. There's footage of Oh practicing while standing on one leg. Learned from Tohei. I suspect Ichiro learned something interesting from someone. That's all I have to say...

Yasuo Kobayashi Shihan writes a bit about Sadaharu Oh and his coach, Hiroshi Arakawa in his biography: "Aikido: My Way"

Part 5 Unforgettable Folks Section 3 Giants Coach Hiroshi Arakawa It was about 1955, Kisshomaru Sensei introduced me to Hiroshi Arakawa saying "this man is a famous pro baseball player -- give him private lessons." He was a player who had batted over 300 in his day for the Orions. In addition to that, he was famous for having scouted Sadaharu Oh's talent when he was at Waseda. He passionately practiced Aikido everyday looking for he could take to baseball. At that time, O Sensei said "would someone bring me two bokken?" I brought him two and we went to O Sensei's 12 mat room where he gave Mr. Arakawa one of the bokken. "Mr. Arakawa, where does the ball come from?" From O Sensei's martial arts perspective, the ball could come from the side or the rear. "From the front only," replied Mr. Arakawa, who was brandishing a bat. Then in front of my eyes, O Sensei thrust the bokken in past the bat. If the bokken had been a ball you would have been hit, he said. It was in the room and O Sensei was holding back. He was lightly brandishing the bat; the bokken was steady. "Don't hold back," O Sensei said and this time, Arakawa Sensei swung with a lot of power at the bokken that had hit him and struck the bokken but the bokken didn't budge. He hit his hand and stumbled down. After that he practiced seriously until he got his first dan and wanted to introduce Aikido theory to baseball so brought along Mr. Hiraoka, Mr. Nagashima, Mr. Oh and many others to watch practice. It's well-known that Sadaharu Oh's one-legged batting style was developed by Mr. Arakawa. Neither Mr. Oh nor Mr. Nagashima ever practiced Aikido, but Mr. Hiraoka practiced once or twice a week in the off-season with us uchideshi. Since I didn't have any interest in baseball, the fact that Mr. Oh and Mr. Nagashima were coming didn't impress me much. One day after practice I got a ride in a car from Mr. Oh to Shinjuku station. I was surprised when we were surrounded by many people who recognized him. Among my present deshi there is a woman who was a classmate of Oh's in junior high school. At a class reunion, she was talking with Mr. Oh about Aikido, he recalled me and wrote me a short note later.

http://www.cup.com/kobayashi-dojo/en...book/2_5_3.htm

Erick Mead wrote: I am not supplanting rigorous practice with book-learning or dragging an engineering handbook on the mat. This is contemplative stuff, to do before and after to see the relationships dimly felt more objectively and hopefully more clearly. There are definable relationships in structure and dynamic that have names and precisely definable actions. They are in those books and will aid your visualization/proprioception and planning for more training. Here I do this, on the mat I train. But they are not separate, even so. The mountain is the mountain whether in the plane looking down or in the valley looking up. The plane will help you see some routes better, though.

Thanks. I do understand what you are trying to do, and support it. I just don't personally find it helpful. FWIW, I am taking a Personal Trainer Certification program right now, studying Kinseology and Exercise Physiology....the science of movement and exercise, hoping to maybe better understand some things. So I do agree that there should be some level of guys like you looking hard at this in this way. I learn alot from the discourse here.

Just commenting that I don't find it very helpful in understanding this when I am doing it or trying to.

Shaun Ravens wrote: Let's face it, no one needs to know the name of kindness or love to know when it is present. Just as surely, one most certainly knows without being told when it is absent. Conversely, one can talk about kindness and love all day long and still not manifest its presence.

Of course talk about something is not the thing itself. However, an interesting relate might be found in a buddy of mine who once described his reaction to a feeling he got sometimes; the feeling was somewhat bewildering to him until one time he was reading about anxiety and it dawned on him that was what it was he was feeling. Sometimes having a name to call something detracts from the thing and sometimes it can help the mind connect to it in a better way. I think it depends on the person and situation.

As usual, I know this reflects more on me than anything else, but what I've taken away from this thread is that whatever It is, don't try to use physics to describe it, because unless you've got the formula complete, it's not useful to anyone (even someone who likes to think in those terms, apparently); other uncertain terms are ok though. Am I wrong in perceiving this? How so?
My feeling is that if Erick says something wrong, folks should be able to pinpoint the exact phrases and restate those phrases correctly. If the phrases aren't conclusive enough, then that's where the debate should end.

Aside:

Wisdom has its place of importance only among the unwise. Knowledge, however unattainable, transcends wisdom every time.

I presume this means you're wise and knowledgeable?
So, wisdom is unwise to pursue and/or the wise hold wisdom to be non-important? Wisdom, the application of knowledge to live the good life, is itself always transcended by knowledge? So the componant parts of wisdom always reach past the limitations of wisdom? Am I applying the wrong definitions? Shaun, if you have the time and desire, please PM me and fill me in on how that is so. If anything it seems to me they can transcend each other at one point or another.

Mary Eastland wrote: Ki development practiced with technique provides the step by step process right along with aikido training. Mary

A while back, I enjoyed working out with a shodan from your dojo at my Yale dojo. His name was Joel and I really liked him. I'm just saying that people training 6 months with Dan generate much much MUCH more power and have much MUCH more stability than what I felt in my friend Joel- and I'm not denigrating Joel or your school's teaching in any way. I found him to be an excellent shodan and a very good person.

So I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm just saying that there is a whole different level of IT achievable in a much shorter amount of time. The step by step approach Dan is teaching is skipping people years and years of time to develop such skills compared to what is taught at the best ki aikido schools I've encountered.

It's that whole different level of IT that is missing in aikido. I gave a bunch of examples of achievable skills. Who after training under 6 years with no prior martial skills in any aikido dojo can achieve that? None. Which is why many ho have some experience with IT are saying IT is missing in aikido.

I know you all (this is not to just Mary) have felt people with more structure and intent than average new people off the street and some elite few with more structure and intent than many muscly aikidoka. And I suspect that you think that is IT. I used to think so too. I have found that IT goes very far beyond that. What Dan shows is far far far beyond that. Dan tells us that he is just learning it, and Mike keeps reminding us that what we are experiencing (which Dan openly admits) is the tip of the iceberg. It's just that what most people think is the IT that IS in aikido is a much much much smaller tip of that iceberg at even most of the elite levels of ability within aikido.

Hope that clears it up.

Rob

Just to be overly clear, people training a short time with Dan surpass anything I have felt from anyone in my own dojos too (before I met Dan and started teaching IT much more effectively myself of course)

Rob Liberti wrote: Just to be overly clear, people training a short time with Dan surpass anything I have felt from anyone in my own dojos too (before I met Dan and started teaching IT much more effectively myself of course)

Wonderful. Then it ought to be simple to describe. Shall I assume there is no lack of willingness to share perspectives? If it should be spread more widely it would be good to be able to describe it. It doesn't require physics-speak. Just think concretely, describe what you do and what happens in doing it.

Kevin Leavitt wrote: Thanks. I do understand what you are trying to do, and support it. I just don't personally find it helpful. ... So I do agree that there should be some level of guys like you looking hard at this in this way. I learn alot from the discourse here. Just commenting that I don't find it very helpful in understanding this when I am doing it or trying to.

Cool. Takes all kinds to have full knowledge -- or wisdom, for that matter.