The Truth about Ki

So creatine is, or is not, ki?

Threads like these are like watching a car wreck unfold.

How about:

Midiclorians...

If you'll excuse me reposting this link, I'm tempted to wonder if this is where Brad got his idea from:

http://www.fudebakudo.com/en/aikido_ki.html

Aigluconeogenesisdo. Yup, works for me.

Dave Whiteland (Beholder) wrote: http://www.fudebakudo.com/en/aikido_ki.html

Which begs the question, is beer ki, or is it not ki?

Erik Haselhofer (Erik) wrote: Which begs the question, is beer ki, or is it not ki?

Well Erik, I suspect your experience might be similar to mine: many of the people I have trained with have been preoccupied with that very question. I have, whenever possible, tried to assist them with the investigation. For the benefit of everyone who does aikido, you understand.

No conclusions yet... practice practice practice...

George S. Ledyard wrote: So I don't look at this as an argument with incompatible ideas at war but rather a lot of viewpoints taken from different vantage points (at least the posts from people who have some idea what they are talking about).

Granted. good points.

I have really enjoyed the Systema classes I have taken because in many ways I have found it very compatible with what I have been taught in the Ki Society.

The free form sparring of Systema and slow-mo practice is a nice ki-ful addition

to my practice for me. And of course, I find the connections of no-touch throws interesting as well.

maybe sometime we will get to do the knife sparring exercises together like in Vegas again.

best,

Craig

Houston Ki Society

Thought I would run Mr. Medling's view of ki past my training partner, a board certified toxicologist. His response?

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There are three metabolic pathways that provide the energy for all human endeavors; the phos­phagen pathway, the glycolytic pathway, and the oxidative pathway. The phosphagen pathway largely contributes to the highest-powered activities that typically last less than 10 seconds or so. The glycolytic pathway largely contributes to moderate-powered activities, those that last up to several minutes. The oxidative pathway, largely contributes to low-powered activities, those that last in excess of several minutes. 

To lump what you are calling "ki" into one of these pathways is just silly. That is, the phenomena associated with "ki" are likely to be rooted within a combination of these three pathways (certainly at least two of them) that depend mainly on the situation where the conjuring of "ki" will ensue. 

 

By the way...  the name adrenaline is antiquated.  Now a days, we bona fide science folk call it epinephrine, a wonderfully complex sympathomimetic hormone of delight.



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Congratulations to Mr. Medling for the attempt at linking "ki" with an energy pathway in the body. Never before in the history of science had this been attempted. We, as forum members, should be honored that his noble, yet failed experiment was offered here, for all to see, with the cocksure arrogance that could only come from a young Aikidoka who had "figured it all out."

Mr. Medling, we salute you!!!

apropos of the difficulties inherent in two different conceptions of life, I just read and HIGHLY recommend (to anybody regardless of where they stand on the ki issue...) a book called "The Expressiveness of the Body and the Divergence of Greek and Chinese Medicine" by Shigehisa Kuriyama. It won a medal for Medical History writing a couple of yrs ago, and is a very readable, non-dense comparison of historical medicine tracing things to very different concepts (both across cultures and within cultures across time) of what a body is and what it means to be a person.

Brad Medling (ikkitosennomusha) wrote: I cannot justify everyone's ignorance on the matter. I wrote what many of you may not understand because you don't have the intellect or should I say the proper study to understand such things. Look beyond yourself. Print off this article and go talk to a qualified, acredited Ph.D biochem professor and ask him to spend more time explaining this concept to you because I don't have the time. I was reluctant to share this but I thought some of you would do a personal study on this and discover it for yourself. Brad

Hi Brad,

interesting coincindence...

It just so happens that along with advanced degrees in biochemistry, my doctoral degree from Brandeis University in Boston, MA involved the study of glycolysis (specfically nonlinear enzyme kinetics and control points in this pathway). Some of this work was published on invitation in a chapter in the reference series "Methods in Enzymology". So it might be said that I know a fair bit about these pathways.

in addition, Tohei Sensei has sought fit to declare me a Ki lecturer and award me an advanced rank in Ki development.

So just maybe, just possibly, I have an idea or two about what Ki is.

that said, and only said, because you seem to be taking the road that if we don't agree it must be because we don't have the intellect or expertise to appreciate what you said.

So....

I hope you are simply joking or persih the thought simply trolling, because otherwise,

if you really believe any of this makes any sense, it is a very sad day in higher education. Your concept of ki as gluconeogensis is just about the silliest thing I have heard in a while and your arguement to back it up is what I would call hand waving (no substance, no facts, no experiemental results, etc.).

to be fair, you can throw it out there as a hypothesis. Just don't say people don't understand and should run to an expert when they disagree with you.

well the first problem of many is defining ki as only "We all know ki as quick internal energy summoned for a punch, a throw, etc." We do ????

How about when I am simply standing there extending my arm for five

minutes ?

you could talk about ki in terms that would fit a discussion of increasing the recruitment of muscle fibers. Talk about the role of postural alignment, etc. with an expert in biomechanics.

you could talk about situations of ki in which the ideas refer to mental processes and then discussions with psychologists would be very fruitful. It could be even very appropriate to say that ki is mind, and go about discussing how the mind operates with neuroscientists.

etc.

since Ki has been a meta-physical term for a long time, trying to say it is one limited example of a burst of energy and then saying aha! it must then be gluconeogenesis, does not solve anything because ki was never thought of in any tradition that I am aware of by such a limited idea.

Craig

HKS

Erik Haselhofer (Erik) wrote: Which begs the question, is beer ki, or is it not ki?

No, of course not.

Single Malt is ki.

Craig

I have not posted much but this caught my attention. I have not been training very long in Aikido, but I have been training in Science for 6 years and specifically in biochemistry for 3 of those years. I have been working with the ideas of how biochemistry and my spirituality combine to come to a conclusion. The only way this can be accomplished is not to believe everything from both sides. Otherwise a person ends up with two concepts of reality. This is difficult for the a persons mind to understand without extensive thought.

So for Mr. Medling to come to this conclusion is valid, it is his concept of the world and he has a right to that no matter what others think. However, I can also choose to disagree and come up with my idea of reality. I do not agree with Mr. Medling, but I also do not have a good definition of Ki. The best I have come up with is Ki is energy. Everything has energy because there is always movement of electrons around the nucleus of an atom. Some people can intuitively tap into this energy others need practice on the mat to tap this energy. I guess the main idea is to get on the mat and practice. If your intellectual understanding of Ki manifest on the mat, your sensei will notice and help you progress.

Yours in Aikido,

Dustin Bunch

Erik Haselhofer (Erik) wrote: So creatine is, or is not, ki?

I will regard this as a serious question. Creatine is a substance dervived from meat. Bodybuilders use it because it helps to retain more water by volume in skeletal muscle cells.

Gluconeogenesis is a pathway/process that involves glucose. Maybe I should give all the complete chemical mechanism for the reaction. Creatine is not the main source for this metabolic pathway.

In fact, for those on a carnivourous (meat eating) diet, creatine will not work and none of the bodybuilding effect can be noticed because the person already has a substantial level in their body.

Hope answers your question.

Brad

Craig, I don't have the scientific creds, but thank you for everything you said in your posting.

Craig Hocker (kironin) wrote: Hi Brad, interesting coincindence... It just so happens that along with advanced degrees in biochemistry, my doctoral degree from Brandeis University in Boston, MA involved the study of glycolysis (specfically nonlinear enzyme kinetics and control points in this pathway). Some of this work was published on invitation in a chapter in the reference series "Methods in Enzymology". So it might be said that I know a fair bit about these pathways. in addition, Tohei Sensei has sought fit to declare me a Ki lecturer and award me an advanced rank in Ki development. So just maybe, just possibly, I have an idea or two about what Ki is. that said, and only said, because you seem to be taking the road that if we don't agree it must be because we don't have the intellect or expertise to appreciate what you said. So.... I hope you are simply joking or persih the thought simply trolling, because otherwise, if you really believe any of this makes any sense, it is a very sad day in higher education. Your concept of ki as gluconeogensis is just about the silliest thing I have heard in a while and your arguement to back it up is what I would call hand waving (no substance, no facts, no experiemental results, etc.). to be fair, you can throw it out there as a hypothesis. Just don't say people don't understand and should run to an expert when they disagree with you. well the first problem of many is defining ki as only "We all know ki as quick internal energy summoned for a punch, a throw, etc." We do ???? How about when I am simply standing there extending my arm for five minutes ? you could talk about ki in terms that would fit a discussion of increasing the recruitment of muscle fibers. Talk about the role of postural alignment, etc. with an expert in biomechanics. you could talk about situations of ki in which the ideas refer to mental processes and then discussions with psychologists would be very fruitful. It could be even very appropriate to say that ki is mind, and go about discussing how the mind operates with neuroscientists. etc. since Ki has been a meta-physical term for a long time, trying to say it is one limited example of a burst of energy and then saying aha! it must then be gluconeogenesis, does not solve anything because ki was never thought of in any tradition that I am aware of by such a limited idea. Craig HKS

Craig:

I actually question your "higher education" because a literate person could have read in one of my posts the controlled factor I was focussing on which does not involve all possible scenarios.

Yes, scientific evidence has been presented and you don't need to be in an doctoral program to learn of it. Pick up a good old copy of voet & voet biochem book for undergrads. A free library card will grant you the knowledge.

Stick you arm out for five minuites? What does that prove? At the end of the five minuites? Why not 15 mins? At the end of that you probably couldn't lift a wet noodle. My focus is on concepts such as the 2" punch, etc.

I don;t know how many times I have to remind people of what my focus is. Again, I am not concerned with power across time. I am concerned with instantaneous power,this aspect of ki. Ki has different aspects and Craig, if you cannot understand the particular aspect I am conveying, you should be made to perform 2000 titrations for punishemnt, followed by centrifugation so that I don't have to.

Brad

Wyl Morris (WylMorris) wrote: Ki is what you need it to be.

I see

Dustin Bunch (Dustin R Bunch) wrote: I have not posted much but this caught my attention. I have not been training very long in Aikido, but I have been training in Science for 6 years and specifically in biochemistry for 3 of those years. I have been working with the ideas of how biochemistry and my spirituality combine to come to a conclusion. The only way this can be accomplished is not to believe everything from both sides. Otherwise a person ends up with two concepts of reality. This is difficult for the a persons mind to understand without extensive thought. So for Mr. Medling to come to this conclusion is valid, it is his concept of the world and he has a right to that no matter what others think. However, I can also choose to disagree and come up with my idea of reality. I do not agree with Mr. Medling, but I also do not have a good definition of Ki. The best I have come up with is Ki is energy. Everything has energy because there is always movement of electrons around the nucleus of an atom. Some people can intuitively tap into this energy others need practice on the mat to tap this energy. I guess the main idea is to get on the mat and practice. If your intellectual understanding of Ki manifest on the mat, your sensei will notice and help you progress. Yours in Aikido, Dustin Bunch

Dustin:

Very good. You are starting out with an open mind. Everythng in the body requires energy as you said. Even electrons have the orbital spins n to the trillon power when the bump and collide into each other.

The type of ki required for an explosive burst of energy is similar to that when someone jumps out and scares you. You can feel the rush internally and if you were to direct this internal power outward, this is ki. As I said earlier, the hormone adrenaline is secreted activating the pathway of this topic thus giving you that quick burst of energy.

The thing is, you don't have to have someone to jump out and scare you to activate this power. That is the secret; learning to tap into this naturally and not by a response to something else. Good reply

Brad

"I don;t know how many times I have to remind people of what my focus is"

Brad, the pattern across various forum threads seems to be that you select a topic and ask people to discuss it from on high, as if you were running an academy, then deign to speak the Truth. Do you not realize that you have wandered into a community of disparate folks with their own particular talents, education, styles, etc, that we are not here for your sole amusement or to be edified by you? That you can suggest a topic but have no control over where folks want to go with it?

You probably do not intend to come across as a self-selected know it all, but that is the tone you consistently take, and its quite offputting.

This will be the one and only time I will comment; I will be declining to participate in your threads or in threads you are participating on.

Best of luck.

Again, I will leave this to the rest of you. I have stated what I have found. A simple study of enzyme kinetics and reactions rates might prove to be useful to some of you.

The professor I learned all this from got his Ph.D from the university of florida I believe and has been reseraching for 27 years. So, I have spent ample time with him for this to be justified whereas this thread will simply not do it. I will take his understanding over some of yours, no offense. To understand, I need about 3 weeks of everyones time to cover all possibilities and conclusions. Have fun!

Brad

Brad Medling (ikkitosennomusha) wrote: Dustin: Very good. You are starting out with an open mind. .... Good reply Brad

Hi Brad

I was just wondering if the teachers you name in your profile had replaced their use of the mysterious word ki with your more informed word gluconeogenesis since you explained it to them? They are open minded, right?

Yours

Dave

PS you can ignore me, we're not really supposed to feed the trolls

Janet:

Great! Some people have childish replies to mock that which they don't understand. If you don't know, be sincere and don't try to act otherwise. I am simply quoting what I have found through reserach. There is no way I will post all of that because of the length and the keypads don't have all the symbols I need.

I am sorry that my posts are not sugar coated enough for you but I try to squeeze these replies in between my prior obligations. Now if you don't appreciate it, ignore it.

To the rest, this is an area I am confortable with and that is why I offer strong opinions. This is afteral a forum so have fun. I do enjoy the humor. Personally, I could care less is Janet feels that ki comes from urethral secrestions projected by weak muscles in the interstitial tissue of the bladder in which case injections of botox in the interstitial space of the bladder through the vaginal canal will control the need for frequent urination!!!

See, I have a sense of humor also (by the way, all that is true; it is a new techniique by ureology surgeons).

Brad

Hi Dave

No they have not. I don't even talk about this with them because it is difficult to grasp and some things are better left unsaid. I still call it ki but now I understand some of where it is derived from and thought some of you might relate>??? obviously not.

Brad

Larry Murray wrote: Uke know better than to falsely attack any of those three Sensei. And Sensei are not using a lot of muscle to "throw around all afternoon"

Mechanical Advantage means not having to use excessive muscle power. If your using proper technique then why should you be as tired as someone who is relying on brute force and strength?

I can push a wheelbarrow around all day full of rocks but if I had to lift them manually, I'd be knackered in an hour.

I do not agree with the poster before that Ki is soley an andrenal response, although I do believe that there is some truth in it.

Janet, I don't know it all and never claim to. It is hard tell one's demeanor on the computer screen, agree? I am acutally a nice person (if you can believe that) that goes out of my way to help just about anyone.

I know this topic so well because I had to know it intimately for reserach and a comprehensive exam so, I was drilled and drilled on it until I was sick! Some profs focusing certain topics and while other profs focus on others. This was one topic mine focused on.

Tell you what, just for you, I will not post anymore on this thread so it can go away if this will make you happy? Afterall, this was never for my benefit! Alsong as you know what ki is to you and can use it, who cares anyway, right???

Brad Medling (ikkitosennomusha) wrote: This is afteral a forum so have fun. I do enjoy the humor. Personally, I could care less is Janet feels that ki comes from urethral secrestions projected by weak muscles in the interstitial tissue of the bladder in which case injections of botox in the interstitial space of the bladder through the vaginal canal will control the need for frequent urination!!! See, I have a sense of humor also

Your desire to learn the human sense of humor is quite endearing, Data, but I do think you could benefit from more rehearsals before exposing it to the general public.