Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 03-17-2004, 11:13 PM   #1
ikkitosennomusha
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 241
Offline
The Truth about Ki

Aikido and MA fans alike:

Want to know what ki is? I can define exactly what Ki is with one word. Before I do, I would like to hear what some of your interpretations are in a definitional format.

The reason for this post is that most people regard Ki as some sort of mystical/spiritual thing only mastered and ascertainable by some. Some also feel that they walk into a dojo without it and as training progresses they magically appear with it.

While the number of explanations by folks are finite, there sure are alot of myths and misinterpretations. Have at it!

Brad Medling

Last edited by ikkitosennomusha : 03-17-2004 at 11:16 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2004, 11:20 PM   #2
ikkitosennomusha
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 241
Offline
BTW, some will try to reference a MA book or the net and that is ok but, I prefer you answer in your own words to facilitate your own understanding. Thanks!

Brad
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2004, 11:37 PM   #3
Ian Williams
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 136
Offline
For me, and I don't wish to disparage other peoples beliefs, "Ki" is a mystical explanation used to describe or explain the biomechanics of the human skeletal and joint/ligament structure.

ie: what some people explain by "Ki" and merdians of energy etc, can also be explained by the way that joints move, and ligaments/muscles pull-resist etc.

I do not believe mysticism is required for Martial Arts, and strongly believe it actually detracts from it.

Tsutsumi Ryu Jujitsu
Adelaide, South Australia

Te audire no possum. Musa sapientum fixa est in aure
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2004, 12:53 AM   #4
p00kiethebear
 
p00kiethebear's Avatar
Dojo: Tonbo Dojo
Location: Bainbridge Island WA
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 374
United_States
Offline
It doesn't matter what you THINK it is. You could think that ki is urine colored kool aid that is magically produced in the appendix which pushes it through the blood in your body and becomes invisible when it leaves the body and was originally devloped by lizard gods in order to make beer taste real good.

What matters (particularly in a martial art that benifits from it) is that you know how to use whatever you think it is. Whether that means staying centered and thinking about extending or sitting down and thinking about muscles moving correctly. Knowing how to use it is what's important. If you believe it's a mystical force coming from the center, fine, it's illogical, just like love can be. If you believe it has to do with the precision of muscular reflexes, fine, that's logical, just like calculous.

From what i've seen in these forums and other places, no one is ever going to agree on what it is and i'm sick of reading people arguing back and forth about it, shut up and keiko.

No offense to anyone on these forums, i've just read enough arguing about this in other places where everyone just seems hell bent on being right.

With that in mind, let's try to keep replies to saying what you think and not saying that we're the absolute authority on ki please? Pretty please? Let's try to make this a constructive discussion. I find that the more i research the topic the more my thoughts seem to slowly evolve to a conclusion.

Sorry, hope i didn't offend anyone or sound like too much of an asshole, had to get that out of me before i did something crazy... like koshi nage on my physics teacher...

*ahem*

/End rant

"Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity"
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2004, 01:04 AM   #5
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,053
Japan
Online
Quote:
Nathan gidney (p00kiethebear) wrote:
Sorry, hope i didn't offend anyone or sound like too much of an asshole, had to get that out of me before i did something crazy... like koshi nage on my physics teacher...
Not so crazy - never met a Physcis teacher that didn't need a good Koshinage.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2004, 01:42 AM   #6
ikkitosennomusha
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 241
Offline
Ok, guys, it is 2:45 am. I will answer for you tomorrow. Until then, keep the opinions coming while I nap.

Brad
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2004, 02:06 AM   #7
WylMorris
Dojo: Field Aikido Balwyn
Location: Melbourne
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 19
Offline
Ki is something like love. There probably is a scientific explaination, but it doesnt need to be found.

Ki is what you need it to be.

either that, or its a huge joke cooked up by the universe and we're it's continuing punchline.

BadgerBadgerBadgerBadgerBadgerBadgerBadger Badger
MUSHROOM MUSHROOM!
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2004, 02:25 AM   #8
drDalek
 
drDalek's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 155
Offline
I have to agree with p00kie, if you believe ki is some magical mystical force fine, if you believe it is supreme mastery of balance, thats fine too.

You can even alternate, every Monday, Wednesday and Friday its mystical martini-mix that my bile duct produces for the fairies in my stomach who make my muscles move.

On Tuesdays and Thursdays its the unconcious calculus of movement, force, physics and balance.

As long as you dont continually try and hard-sell whatever you believe in to your students or peers you can believe whatever you want.

The important thing is that the phenomenon stays "internal" to you, my magical drunken stomach fairies dont have influence beyond my fingertips and toes.

So to summarise, believe what you will, just dont try and no-touch-knockout someone 2 meters away using your ki, or argue with someone who does not believe the same thing you believe in, if you strain too hard you might stink up the dojo.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2004, 06:35 AM   #9
ross_l
Dojo: Genyokan
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 37
Offline
Thank goodness! Someone's finally going to tell us exactly what Ki is. Something that people haven't quite been able to put their finger on for centuries! I'm waiting for the answer with bated breath.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2004, 06:51 AM   #10
cbrf4zr2
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 114
Offline
I always thought Ki was something most people can't sing in.

************************
...then again, that's just me.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2004, 07:49 AM   #11
Eric Joyce
Dojo: Budoshingikan
Location: Gilbert, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 179
United_States
Offline
Quote:
Nathan gidney (p00kiethebear) wrote:
From what i've seen in these forums and other places, no one is ever going to agree on what it is and i'm sick of reading people arguing back and forth about it, shut up and keiko.

/End rant
Now, now...that isn't vey KI like.

I agree with Ian on this one.

Eric Joyce
Otake Han Doshin Ryu Jujutsu
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2004, 11:32 AM   #12
kironin
 
kironin's Avatar
Dojo: Houston Ki Aikido
Location: Houston,TX
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,033
United_States
Offline
Quote:
Nathan gidney (p00kiethebear) wrote:
What matters (particularly in a martial art that benifits from it) is that you know how to use whatever you think it is. Whether that means staying centered and thinking about extending or sitting down and thinking about muscles moving correctly. Knowing how to use it is what's important. If you believe it's a mystical force coming from the center, fine, it's illogical, just like love can be. If you believe it has to do with the precision of muscular reflexes, fine, that's logical, just like calculous.

From what i've seen in these forums and other places, no one is ever going to agree on what it is and i'm sick of reading people arguing back and forth about it, shut up and keiko.
Excellent response !!!

I loved it. spot on.

knowing about it and using it in practice is one thing - a non-verbal experience.

talking about the experience or use in words is always going to differ through how we with our own personalities see and interact with the world.

Craig

Houston Ki Society
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2004, 11:59 AM   #13
George S. Ledyard
 
George S. Ledyard's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,633
Offline
Ki

Quote:
Craig Hocker (kironin) wrote:
Excellent response !!!

I loved it. spot on.

knowing about it and using it in practice is one thing - a non-verbal experience.

talking about the experience or use in words is always going to differ through how we with our own personalities see and interact with the world.

Craig

Houston Ki Society
I've written a fair amount on this in the past so i won't redo it. It's all in the archives I think.

I did want to say that I have never taken the ki thing to be too argumentative (or maybe I just ignored the zealots). Most of the discussions have shown just how difficult a topic this is and just how misunderstood it is. I enjoy reading the better posts because they don't necessarily agree with the way in which I look at this and frankly, I am not yet precise in my own mind about what I think on this topic. I have a practical way in which I think about it which I got from Gleason Sensei and it suffices as a model for technical purposes but I am having some interesting exposure, most recently through the Systema folks, that makes me believe that I will eventually need to expand my ideas on this.

So I don't look at this as an argument with incompatible ideas at war but rather a lot of viewpoints taken from different vantage points (at least the posts from people who have some idea what they are talking about).

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2004, 12:09 PM   #14
ikkitosennomusha
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 241
Offline
Ok My aiki-friends the wait is over:

First, let me say that this has previously been a debate of the ages because you have too many layman in the MA that can't exlain it so they theoreticize about it and thats how these stories spread; kinda like the one where you supposedly can't throw rice at a wedding because it might kill the birds which is a myth. This myth was started by an error in a newspaper column!

A little about me. I am a chemist studying the M.D. Being an aikidoka, I was able to discover exactly what ki was when I was in my biochemistry course. The prossor doesn't know it as ki because he is not in the MA and I previously did not know what he sees it as becuase I was not in biochemistry! I will know leave you with a special gift. I will put this as simple as possible.

Ki is gluconeogenesis. Gluconeogenesis is the reverse metabolic pathway of glycolysis. To understand what gluconeogenesis is, we must frist discuss glycolysis.

Glycolysis converts glucose to glycogen. The brain's fuel source is glucose but the brain cannot store this for a reserve, so when you eat, nutrients are absorbed in the upper intestine. Sonn after is when glucose gets converted to glycogen which is the stored form of fat. (I can list all molecules of these pathways if anybody wants). When the brain/body need energy, gluconeogenesis occurs which is the process to convert glycogen back to glucose to make fuel readily available.

We all know the hormone adrenaline. This is the "fight or flight" hormone. This hormone is responsible for signaling glucose into production when the body needs some very quick energy. This is why the energy experienced is short lived. This hormone adrenaline, signals gluconeogensis to occur rapidly as this burns energy rapidly so that the fuel is readily available for that "quick emergency"or "quick burst of energy".

This is ki. The rapid production of glycogen to glucose for the "fight or flight". We all know ki as quick internal energy summoned for a punch, a throw, etc. Well, gluconeogenesis is what makes it happen and therefore, goluconeogenesis is ki.

Brad Medling

Last edited by ikkitosennomusha : 03-18-2004 at 12:16 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2004, 12:47 PM   #15
aikidocapecod
Dojo: Shobu Aikido Cape Cod
Location: Cape Cod, Massachusetts
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 152
United_States
Offline
I have been studying Aikido for a while. And I have heard many explanations of Ki. But to liken Ki with "Fight or Flight" is a new one on me.

Gleason Sensei has thrown me around his mat many many times. And I am quite certain that not once...not even for a tiny minuscule moment did he feel "Fight or Flight" .

But I can tell you from first hand experience, his key was definately flowing.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2004, 12:48 PM   #16
aikidocapecod
Dojo: Shobu Aikido Cape Cod
Location: Cape Cod, Massachusetts
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 152
United_States
Offline
Unless of course Brad, you were just teasing us all
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2004, 12:52 PM   #17
aikidocapecod
Dojo: Shobu Aikido Cape Cod
Location: Cape Cod, Massachusetts
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 152
United_States
Offline
OK OK OK.....ya.....my spell checked brain typed key instead of Ki......
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2004, 01:04 PM   #18
ikkitosennomusha
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 241
Offline
I could throw you around flowingly all day as well. I have done many aikidoka that way thats just because I let the principles of aikido work for me. Ki is often described as the feits of strength/energy to do seemingly impossible things. I hardly think it is impossible to throw you around all afternoon! You have heard of someone lifting up the side of a car because someone was trapped underneath, etc, etc. This is real ki. Taking you down with aikido techniques is more tammed and controlled. When karate people break boards (which I think is silly), this is ki. If I used the true nature of ki on you, you would have brokem ligaments as result. In class, you are just letting your energy flow smoothly and expending it. Like I said, I don't think you can let ki loose on someone in practice because it would be too brutal.

I cannot justify everyone's ignorance on the matter. I wrote what many of you may not understand because you don't have the intellect or should I say the proper study to understand such things. Look beyond yourself. Print off this article and go talk to a qualified, acredited Ph.D biochem professor and ask him to spend more time explaining this concept to you because I don't have the time. I was reluctant to share this but I thought some of you would do a personal study on this and discover it for yourself.

Brad

Last edited by ikkitosennomusha : 03-18-2004 at 01:10 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2004, 01:25 PM   #19
aikidocapecod
Dojo: Shobu Aikido Cape Cod
Location: Cape Cod, Massachusetts
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 152
United_States
Offline
Perhaps some of us may not have the mental capacity to understand something that you obviously seem to know better than most. Maybe we are challenged intellectually. Maybe we are just (to use your term ) ignorant.

Speaking for myself, I am blessedly ignorant of what physiological and chemical processes are taking place that may give me a moment or two of Ki power.

But...to say that one could throw another around all afternoon is perhaps a bit of a boast. If one attempts to throw another around all afternoon without the use of Ki, then that Nage will surely be exhausted and dripping with sweat. When I see Saotome Sensei or Ikeda Sensei or Gleason Sensei intruct for a couple hours they are using Ki.

Uke know better than to falsely attack any of those three Sensei. And Sensei are not using a lot of muscle to "throw around all afternoon"

Their Ki is flowing....trust me...and also trust me when I say they are not feeling "fight or flight".....

So, please accept my disagreement with the definition of Ki you provided.....

Though I cannot give a good correct definition of Ki, I have difficulty accepting yours...

Unless of course you are still teasing those of us who are ignorant...
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2004, 01:27 PM   #20
Chris Birke
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 258
Offline
That's the funniest shit I've heard in a long time. I'll bite.

The theory that ki is caused by a single molecular process is akin to saying love is the sole result of oxytocin. It's a myopic argument that desperately falls short of embracing the whole issue.

Ki is absolutely not the result of gluconeogenesis.

Since you asked;

I would say Ki is about dissolving the difference between the external world and the world within you. In fact, it may be about ending all duality.

You don't even have to be throwing someone for it to occur!

I'm rather sure there's at least one person out there who would tend to agree with me.

How does gluconeogenesis fit in here?
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2004, 01:32 PM   #21
aikidocapecod
Dojo: Shobu Aikido Cape Cod
Location: Cape Cod, Massachusetts
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 152
United_States
Offline
gluconeogenesis

OK...let us all make a solemn pact.....no more words with 15 letters in this forum!!!

And Chris...I really am very disappointed in you.....(he said tongue in cheek) But I am sure that there is a 15 letter word you could have used instead of S__T!!!!!!!!
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2004, 01:34 PM   #22
cbrf4zr2
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 114
Offline
Interesting theory Brad. I'm more likely to buy into Ki being something physiological than it is to being metaphysical. Then again, it might be a mind over matter issue as well.

************************
...then again, that's just me.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2004, 01:35 PM   #23
ikkitosennomusha
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 241
Offline
Yes Larry I aggree, you can expend your ki just like eating a cup cake. You can cram the whole thing in or take a little bite at a time. With ki, you can use it sparringly to flow and last as along as possible or in casses of extremity, you can burn it for your emergency.

I will make one more point and then the lesson will be yours. Ki is what the chinese refer to as chi, an internal living force. That force is fueled by gluconeogenesis. When Bruce lee would tense up and his muscular striations would appear, he was harnessing his ki. Do you think he could keep that posture for very long? No. In my explanation of ki, I was trying to focus on the extreme uses of it. Throwing someone around all day is relative to the persons endurance and ki if you will but I am trying to stay clear of discussing that because it is easier to define ki to someone when it is obvious they are using it. Make sense?

To clarify, ignorance means "not knowing". I did not mean to be offensive in using that word. Many of you are obviously intelligent. I am ignorant of alot of things as well so, lets stick to the issue and not use this for a distraction.
Brad

Last edited by ikkitosennomusha : 03-18-2004 at 01:40 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2004, 01:39 PM   #24
Jason Mudd
Dojo: Suffolk Institute for Eastern Studies
Location: Bohemia, NY
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 10
Offline
Quote:
Brad Medling (ikkitosennomusha) wrote:
I cannot justify everyone's ignorance on the matter. I wrote what many of you may not understand because you don't have the intellect or should I say the proper study to understand such things. Look beyond yourself. Print off this article and go talk to a qualified, acredited Ph.D biochem professor and ask him to spend more time explaining this concept to you because I don't have the time. I was reluctant to share this but I thought some of you would do a personal study on this and discover it for yourself.
Uh... thanks?
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2004, 01:48 PM   #25
ross_l
Dojo: Genyokan
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 37
Offline
I've got a good 16 letter word:

Superciliousness.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Ki energy defined Guest_779 General 111 08-16-2013 09:50 AM
Poll: If you could be uke for yourself, would you be able to throw yourself? AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 72 08-07-2013 05:16 PM
Stanislavsky and Ki DaveO General 11 01-20-2006 10:11 AM
Ki is Extended. tedehara Spiritual 5 11-15-2004 10:12 PM
Train In Ki And Why chadsieger Training 54 06-15-2002 10:26 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:27 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate