Ki ball of energy

We started with making chi-balls... now we're talking about excluding the philosophy... what a wonderful thing these forums are.

I guess noone really gets what anyone wants to say here (mr. Baker has pointed that out already in couple of previous threads)

And about America being not there - to Europeans it wasn't therefore they couldn't take much advatage of it and guess what... the native's didn't know Europe was there either... maybe "energy" doesn't know we are here... oh this is getting way tooo weird already.

One thing is philosophy anonother is metaphysics alright?

The thing with I meant with the quote of Saito sensei wasn't so much about excluding philosophy but about learning everything through what is already VERY there. The non-violence philosophy, the unity, the Aiki - it's in the techniques isn't it?

And about any biochemist telling me about generating large amounts of energy - sure... we eat and we s*** and we build our body cells etc etc. And we generate heat when moving. And there are small electrical charges in the nervesystem.

AND AGAIN - (please read this then you actually might get me - those who want of course) I DIDN'T WANT to point out chi wasn't there I DIDN'T WANT to point out that we should replace this concept with rationalist terms. WHAT I WANTED TO POINT OUT was that it would be more efficient if we considered these rational terms FIRST and THEN move to the "uncharted territories". Especially this goes for the ones who begin. Their progress will be way faster when they can use concepts they already know.

ANOTHER THING I wanted to point out (I didn't say mr. Baker had this attitude but I've seen it so much elsewhere) is that so many who put an emphasis on the spiritual and mystical part they can get lost very easily (look, I can make Chi-balls!, look I can Chi my unbendable arm, I feel the unity with the Universe when I do mokuso!). I've seen such attitudes - and I think this is as far from the real philosophy and real mysticism in Aikido as it gets.

Use the things which are already natural to you. Use the knowledge you already have.

Jorgen
Estonian Aikikai
Riveta Sportsclub

It is my understanding ...

Saito sensei is the protector of Iwama, while

Hikitsuchi sensei is the spiritual head of Iwama.

Could one of you fellows in Japan confirm this, please?
-------------------------------------------
Meanwhile....

I am thinking of taking up the flat earth credo, like many of the crowd.

If you can't see it, it don't exist!

Yep'ers, them thar things just ain't so.

Even that thar Aikido is hype-no-tyzim.

YEP-yep-yep.
________________________________________________________________________________

Ouch! That kind of thinking hurts my head.

Back to real Aikido.

Stop using KI! This ain't Dragon Ball Z!

Eight out of ten posts say it doesn't exist, so it must be true!

(If we could just figure out how to light this energy so the human eye could see it, we could make a fortune! Talk shows! World tour! Baby! Maybe even them far away lands. Holland, Estonia, Arizonia, Kansas, Andy Russoland, even Hollywood!)

Humor ... another trait of good Aikido.

There is nothing so dangerous as a sensei who starts you laughing then sends you into a throw?

Jorgen: Isnt this fairy tale wonderful that you wouldn't want it to end?

I wrote the following a little bit over a year ago in these Forums:

I remember a story told by George Simcox sensei who was at the dinner table with Koichi Tohei sensei when a reporter asked Tohei sensei if he could move (if I remember correctly) a salt shaker across the table with his "ki." Tohei sensei smiled and said, "Why, of course!" Tohei sensei then reached out with his hand, picked up the salt shaker, and put it down across the table.

-- Jun

IMHO, i think ki is not that mystical as it sounds. It's only the many wonderful things it can do that makes it sound so mystical and amazing. I believe(i might be wrong), we all have our ki when we 1st have our 1st breath when we were borned. And we somehow 'lost touch' with it as we grow up. And now we are merely finding it back and finding what we can do with it(we were juz using it to cry when we were borned).

Hope everyone gets what i mean.

Its juz what i think from what i have learnt.

I was training with a long time tai chi chuan practitioner (thirty years) at an aikido seminar who told me that I had strong chi. I laughed in surprise and told her that I was just a strong guy (I used to do a lot of weightlifting) and that was what she was feeling. She stared at me with a peculiar look on her face and then smiled and said, "I have been doing tai chi long enough to know chi when I feel it." Until that moment I'd had no idea that I had "strong chi" (and I'm still somewhat doubtful), but apparently it was evidenced in my aikido. And I didn't have to make a single chi ball.

Practice, practice, practice.

Originally posted by akiy I remember a story told by George Simcox sensei who was at the dinner table with Koichi Tohei sensei when a reporter asked Tohei sensei if he could move (if I remember correctly) a salt shaker across the table with his "ki." Tohei sensei smiled and said, "Why, of course!" Tohei sensei then reached out with his hand, picked up the salt shaker, and put it down across the table.

Yes, but Tohei is also the same guy who is part of the heavy duty warpage of the unbendable arm. Then there are the stories in his books about him massaging winning slot machines, standing up in the trenches during the war and the "ki healing" work he's doing. It may be that Tohei is very pragmatic but when you add all of that together it's not hard to see why people take the leap to Dragon Z balls.

Originally posted by William As for Ki Balls,I was making those before I ever started Aikido. If the word Ki gives you issues, simply call it a more western, rationalist term, Energy. Any biochemist will tell you that we generate large amounts of biochemical energy, and that many of the basic Ki techniques are just training yourself to discern this more clearly (much like training someone as a wine taster).

Hi William. A biochemist wanted me to ask you a couple of questions. Which textbooks talk about ki or about being aware of biomechanical energy. Any references as to who documented your assertion, particularly in regards to being aware of biochemical energy. He was also curious if you knew who the leading researchers were in the field regarding your assertion (which admittedly you might be able to glean off the net). For my own sake, I would be curious to hear your working definition of biochemical energy.

Changing the term and adding a rationalist explanation doesn't change the facts though, and does make you appear a little shallow. Its like claiming that America didn't really exist until Europeans 'discovered' it.

You are quite correct, adding big words doesn't change the facts. It's a little bit like claiming that bigfoot exists because we found the skeleton of a Neanderthal. One doesn't lead to the other, and it can leave some folks appearing a little bit shallow.

"Hi William. A biochemist wanted me to ask you a couple of questions. Which textbooks talk about ki or about being aware of biomechanical energy."

I must admit, no text book, but rather a friend of mine who is currently studying for his Doctorate in BioChemistry. When I posed him the question and asked if Ki was explicable in terms of Western Science he responded in the affirmative, and explained it in terms of most efficient utilisation of mechanical energy, heightened states of neurological awareness, and the body's own bioelectrical fields. I may not have 100% understood everything he was saying, but the western science can explain most of the common usages of Ki (e.g. seemingly supernatural awareness of attackers, ability to move seemingly impossibly large loads easily, and so forth).

I have confidence that in time Western science will be able to explain many other of the seemingly impossible feats that Ki facilitates.

What vexes me is that there are vidoes out there, and many people have even been priviliged enough to witness (or even experience) the application of Ki techniques first hand, and they still persist in claiming that it doesn't exist.

Ki is just as mystical as our ability to think rationally, or our ability to move our limbs by the power of thought. Everything is mystical, but with the triumph of rationalism in Western society the wonderful and mystical has been rationalised.

Now we come across Aikido, which has preserved that sense of the mystical and wonderful in the mundane world, and some people feel obliged to go about tearing it down until they feel comforitable (and some would argue, ultimately unhappy) again.

"WHAT I WANTED TO POINT OUT was that it would be more efficient if we considered these rational terms FIRST and THEN move to the "uncharted territories". Especially this goes for the ones who begin. Their progress will be way faster when they can use concepts they already know."

Ouch! Ouch! Enough caps already . I can see where you are going, but I must disagree. To use a very simple example, when you were in grade 1 your teacher told you, There are NO negative numbers. Some would argue it was necessary to simplify and limit the model in order to teach, but I know that to this day I feel that I my teacher betrayed my trust by not admitting the model was incorrect. This has occurred many time, particularly at university, where models were simplified to the point of Untruth, and I always felt annoyed. Dump me in the deep end any day of the week, allow me to be humble and admit, I don't understand, but don't lie to me.

My Aikido Sensei never forced the Ki concept on us, he always explained it in more western or rationalist terms, but when asked directly he never denied that Ki existed, he merely said that he didn't possess sufficient skill to show us examples beyound those he'd already shown. I always admired his honesty, and respected him more for it.

Hi William;

I've had a Ph.D. in Biochemistry for about 15 years and been doing Aikido in Japan and elsewhere for a reasonable stretch. Had some great conversations with everything from acupunturists to neo-shintoist priests.

I too was going through a stage trying to understand Ki in scientific terms and right in the middle of that one of the segments of a Japanese Aikido text I was involved in translating (which is now available) clarified everything.

Kenji Tomiki explained that there were various powers involved in Aikido. Power of strength, power of movement, breath power and the more mystical Ki. The confusion in the western mind, and I may add that of many Japanese, is that Ki is often used to explain the combination of all of these concepts. Now some guy sitting in seiza blowing away an attacker without touching him (I have seen the video) is Ki if you believe what he's doing is for real, but what component of an Aikido technique is Ki? I suggest that Ki is in fact not a force that can be projected.

Ki is life force. As a biochemist we break life down into its component parts but if we consider life as being greater than the sum of its parts - well that little bit extra is Ki. Can we use it, can we manipulate it, maybe. Science has not been able to demonstrate its existance which by the way is as detrimental to the argument fo Ki as it is possibly a shortcoming of science. What science has been able to show is the downright fraud perpetrated in the name of Ki.

To make it short - I don't dismiss Ki but am very careful about what is claimed.

Jorgen,

None of the three Iwama style Aikido dojos I've trained in had 'Iwama' in their name. Two dojos I've trained in had "Aikikai" in their name, but were not actually affiliated with the main Aikikai organization. To me, dojo names don't mean much. I thought you might be from an Iwama dojo based on your quote of Saito Sensei within the first few sentences, and again near the end, and the intensity of your desire that we all cease discussion of ki. (more for you on this in a minute, Greg )

And perhaps my cats are spoiled, but they do not purr when they hear me, or even see me walk near them. They do purr, however, when I run my hand over them without touching them.

Greg,

I have only met a small group of instructors and students from a few Iwama dojos, and admittedly the instructors were all from the same time period in Iwama, but they all had a few things in common: a. within the first few minutes of discussion you would know they traced their lineage directly to O Sensei via Saito Sensei and in how many generations. b. that the ONLY way to good Aikido is via hard static training and that even thinking about ki was a waste of time.

I'm not saying that way of looking at things is wrong, but if ever there seemed to be a group that would turn up the volume immediately at the mention of ki, it was them. To me, it's fine, and I have no doubt there are variations from dojo to dojo, sensei to sensei, but name the following styles from each example:

a. Nage is performing a kokyunage, leads a moving/attacking uke in a circle (so that nage is facing in the same direction and slightly behind uke), places his hand lightly on uke's neck, leads him in a looping motion (which lets his feet move from under his center off balancing uke) and with his leading hand points his finger back directly at ukes face (well, just to the side of the far ear) and down to effect the throw (finger points in the direction ki)

b. Standing still, uke grabs nage full strength. Nage moves behind and facing in the same direction as uke, he firmly grabs the back of uke's collar and uses a 45 degree breakdown angle to offbalance uke, then moves forward to complete the throw. Essential here is correct breakdown angle and maintaining uke off balance after the initial move.

I would say either can be Iwama or Aikikai or Ki Society, etc, but in the early stages, when it seems students are the most vehement that theirs is the correct approach and others are following a fools path, one group would choose one way, and one another. And, in those Iwama students I've met, there is a strong feeling that thinking/talking about ki is wasted energy and there's a quick response to stomp out such discussions early. I think this comes from (at least in part) the Saito Sensei quote Jorgen had in the start of his post. Certainly not wrong, it is one approach, and one that I'd say I've seen in the Iwama dojos I've visited. I like training with Iwama students, they generally are very intense and practice hard, and it does a lot to clean up sloppy footwork (as did a dojo I was at with Yoshinkai roots). But I know better than to use any ki words when I'm there

Originally posted by Jonathan She stared at me with a peculiar look on her face and then smiled and said, "I have been doing tai chi long enough to know chi when I feel it." Until that moment I'd had no idea that I had "strong chi" (and I'm still somewhat doubtful), but apparently it was evidenced in my aikido. And I didn't have to make a single chi ball. Practice, practice, practice.

Sorry Jonathon, but that is the oldest aiki pickup line in the world.......

After reading the response of those who have spent some time in training with some people who have had strong KI ... I wonder if the east has come west to rediscover the gut strength we interpret as KI?

Most people who live long enough will see some incredible, unexplainable feat of strength by some other human being who is not physically capable of doing what you saw?

You may do something totally stupid that results in a wrentched back or injury later in your workday, but when you picked up or moved that object it was difficult to do at all?

KI / Chi? Or was it will power, gut strength?

I have seen some pretty weird stuff that eventually had scientific explanations ... maybe that is coming with our understanding of Iron Body verses Hypnotizing ourselves, and our own electrical energy or bio-force of life?

In either case ... back to the question.

Have you ever worked on projecting your Ki/chi/electrical bioforce into a ball of energy?

You can add to this by telling me if you use visualization in projecting your energy in techniques too ... does it make a measured difference when you don't?

Originally posted by Bruce Baker Have you ever worked on projecting your Ki/chi/electrical bioforce into a ball of energy?

No. We use "polishing the ball" as a metaphor for proper mechanics. We do not believe in ki as a usable "bio electrical" force.

We believe in ki as a heuristic for the many, many variables, physical and psychological that contribute to optimal performance.

You can add to this by telling me if you use visualization in projecting your energy in techniques too ... does it make a measured difference when you don't?

As explained above, we certainly do visualize projecting energy, balls, streams of water, etc. to aid in correct mechanics.

Yes, in an anecdotal sense, it does seem to make a difference.

No, I can't say it's ever been measured. That would be very difficult. It would require sensors, a statistially significant sample, crafting double-blind tests, etc.

I, personally, find it much easier to keep my own council and, as my instructor puts it "Don't talk...DO".

Best Regards,

Originally posted by ca Greg, I have only met a small group of instructors and students from a few Iwama dojos, and admittedly the instructors were all from the same time period in Iwama, but they all had a few things in common: a. within the first few minutes of discussion you would know they traced their lineage directly to O Sensei via Saito Sensei and in how many generations. b. that the ONLY way to good Aikido is via hard static training and that even thinking about ki was a waste of time.

Well, that pretty much tells me what I wanted to know!

Sincerely,

Originally posted by Bruce Baker You can add to this by telling me if you use visualization in projecting your energy in techniques too ... does it make a measured difference when you don't?

The unbendable arm works with the visualization, however, it also works without it, IF, you know how it works. However, like most people, I was never told the mechanics. It was ki, ki and more ki which did it. I've probably done that technique a hundred times in a class setting.

If someone had simply told me the truth, which is that it's a function of how the muscles work I could have done it once, been able to do it more effectively, been able to apply the concept usefully, and never had to waste any more time with the practice.

So much of this stuff is simple not complex. But we want the complex, the mystical (ki) or even the scientific (big verbiage) answer and so we screw around looking in all the wrong places. Not only does it waste our time, you often don't even have anything useful when you are done.

Originally posted by William I have confidence that in time Western science will be able to explain many other of the seemingly impossible feats that Ki facilitates. What vexes me is that there are vidoes out there, and many people have even been priviliged enough to witness (or even experience) the application of Ki techniques first hand, and they still persist in claiming that it doesn't exist.

I gladly do so. I think most, probably all of it could be explained with a good engineer handy.

Ki is just as mystical as our ability to think rationally, or our ability to move our limbs by the power of thought. Everything is mystical, but with the triumph of rationalism in Western society the wonderful and mystical has been rationalised. Now we come across Aikido, which has preserved that sense of the mystical and wonderful in the mundane world, and some people feel obliged to go about tearing it down until they feel comforitable (and some would argue, ultimately unhappy) again.

Yea, I'm one of those. I don't think it does anyone any good to believe in something which doesn't exist. Been there, done that to death. Do you need 3 guesses as to where I sit on religion? See my comments on the unbendable arm as to why I think mysticsm is damaging. By the way, the world is anything but mundane. ki doesn't change that.

"WHAT I WANTED TO POINT OUT was that it would be more efficient if we considered these rational terms FIRST and THEN move to the "uncharted territories". Especially this goes for the ones who begin. Their progress will be way faster when they can use concepts they already know."

I agree, it's just that many of us want to stay in uncharted waters. Hence, when a much simpler answer comes along it's not acceptable. I know people who flat out refuse to accept my explanation of the unbendable arm. It has to be ki. This is why I come down so hard on the subject. It's incredibly hard, once you become addicted to the magical, to return to the rational. Teachers teaching this stuff, in this way, are not doing their students any favors.

Originally posted by PeterR I've had a Ph.D. in Biochemistry for about 15 years and been doing Aikido in Japan and elsewhere for a reasonable stretch.

Wish I'd known that. It would have saved me a step. You just never know what's on the other side of the screen.

Drifted away we are

No I haven't tried to make a chi ball. I would like very much to train with some
ki-society ppl but there are none in Estonia

Visualisation (psychology) is one thing chi is another.

I didn't learn that negative numbers where there in 1st grade Anyhow nowadays they say that square root from minus one exists... In school you learned that it's not possible.

Anyhow, I think quite much has been said different sides been represented. End of discussion from me, but I'll be glad to read if others continue.

The little discussion about style - there are only Aikikai dojos in Estonia. Even the creepy REAL-Aikido (I don't know if anyone knows this organisation) belongs under the Aikikai federation. So the name is nothing... at least in Estonia.

Colleen... well some say that cats can see the 8th color of rainbow as well and DEATH in person (Discworld rulz) cats are just cats that's why we keep them

Jorgen
Estonian Aikikai
Riveta Sportsclub

P.S. Bruce - ever heard of the theory that the Earth WAS flat until ppl's imagination started drifting other way?

Originally posted by Jorx Anyhow nowadays they say that square root from minus one exists... In school you learned that it's not possible.

Well, to say that it exists... It is called an imaginary number. But there may be a similarity with ki

Imagine there would exist a number i so that i*i=-1. Why would you imagine that? Because using that imaginary number i, you can greatly simplify some otherwise complex mathematical problems (and raise a few others).

Imagine there would be ki, an energy flowing through your body and the rest of the universe. Why would you imagine that? Because visualizing that energy flow ki, helps your mind to control your body in a more optimal way.

(Yes, I know the views above are a simplification.)

well some say that cats can see the 8th color of rainbow as well and DEATH in person

Well, since cats are nighttime hunters (they are, aren't they?), it would seem logical that their range of vision would be shifted in the direction of the infrared, compared to humans. So, they could indeed see colors we can't.
There are stories about dogs who 'sensed' severe illness or upcoming heart attacks of their owners, haven't heard them about cats. But they can mostly be explained by links as illness -> immune system -> body odor -> dog smell, or other physical warning signals we humans just don't pick up.

Just to say that most things can be explained rationally.

[If this boring stuff isn't enough to kill the discussion, what else will?]

Originally posted by PeterR Kenji Tomiki explained that there were various powers involved in Aikido. Power of strength, power of movement, breath power and the more mystical Ki. The confusion in the western mind, and I may add that of many Japanese, is that Ki is often used to explain the combination of all of these concepts. Now some guy sitting in seiza blowing away an attacker without touching him (I have seen the video) is Ki if you believe what he's doing is for real, but what component of an Aikido technique is Ki? I suggest that Ki is in fact not a force that can be projected.

Well, Tomiki was a rationalist (not a bad thing). I think the confusion lies mainly in the fact that "ki" has many different (and often vague) meanings in Japanese, many of which change due to context. "Ki" is certainly used as you mentioned above, but it's also used in Japanese as a "projectable force" - depends what you're talking about and who you're talking to.

Best,

Chris

Hello,

Well, since cats are nighttime hunters (they are, aren't they?), it would seem logical that their range of vision would be shifted in the direction of the infrared, compared to humans. So, they could indeed see colors we can't.

Umm, cats do not see colors that humans cannot see. This is because cats do not see in color, but rather shades of gray.

However, honey bees can see into the infrared spectrum.

Hi Chris - well so am I which is probably the reason I have found my Aikido niche at the Shodokan.

Originally posted by Chris Li Well, Tomiki was a rationalist (not a bad thing). I think the confusion lies mainly in the fact that "ki" has many different (and often vague) meanings in Japanese, many of which change due to context. "Ki" is certainly used as you mentioned above, but it's also used in Japanese as a "projectable force" - depends what you're talking about and who you're talking to.

Originally posted by PeterR Hi Chris - well so am I which is probably the reason I have found my Aikido niche at the Shodokan.

So am I, I think, in terms of technical practice. Still, there's something wonderful in the philosophy of practice that M. Ueshiba espoused. Well worth working your way through the texts of his speeches (if you have the time!), if you want to examine not only the how of practice, but the why. FWIW, my impression is that he used the word "ki" primarily in a philosophical and technical sense, rather than in the sense of magical rays emerging from your fingertips.

Best,

Chris

" once you become addicted to the magical, to return to the rational. Teachers teaching this stuff, in this way, are not doing their students any favors. "

Okay, sorry, going slightly off topic here, but I have one word for you, Montessori. Its a teaching technique where the child discovers the answers for themselves. The teacher merely facilitates, each pupil moving at their own pace. Its bloody brilliant, but unfortunately not popular. No lies, and arguably better than mainline teaching (but it needs much better trained teachers).

" I've had a Ph.D. in Biochemistry for about 15 years and been doing Aikido in Japan and elsewhere for a reasonable stretch. Had some great conversations with everything from acupunturists to neo-shintoist priests. "

Technical qualifications lose validity after roughly three years . No wait, that was just pure nastyness . Point taken though Doctor.

" Science has not been able to demonstrate its existance which by the way is as detrimental to the argument fo Ki as it is possibly a shortcoming of science "

As someone put it extremely succinctly, 'Absence of proof is not proof of absence'. But your statement above is not entirely accurate. Psychometrics measure immaterial mental constructs, by carefully defining the construct and using statistical methods to correlate its existance to a measurable phenomenon. The first step would be to operationally define Ki, develop an instrument, and link it to a series of likely measurable phenomenon, then validate the results through statistical method. I'm not aware of anyone having done this yet, but I am open to correction. If this is done according to scientific method, then Science will have quantified Ki.

As for asking Science to demonstrate the existance of Ki, thats laughable. Thats like asking Scientists to demonstrate the existance of Life. It already exists, it doesn't need to be demonstrated, merely defined and quantified.

" As a biochemist we break life down into its component parts but if we consider life as being greater than the sum of its parts - well that little bit extra is Ki. "

Yes, no, maybe.

And personally I like it that way.

Originally posted by William but I have one word for you, Montessori. Its a teaching technique where the child discovers the answers for themselves. The teacher merely facilitates, each pupil moving at their own pace.

Great system - had my kid in same while in Canada but they still had their text books and never really strayed to far from the straight and narrow.

Technical qualifications lose validity after roughly three years

If of course you leave the field.

As for asking Science to demonstrate the existance of Ki, thats laughable. Thats like asking Scientists to demonstrate the existance of Life. It already exists, it doesn't need to be demonstrated, merely defined and quantified.

Everything science measures exists - what's your point? As I said in previous posts I don't dismiss the existance of ki entirely (absence of proof thingy) but I do dismiss many of the claims made in its name and of course as soon as some school girl demonstrates that one aspect is pure bunk the goal posts are moved.

I had my Ki measured this summer at a Ki no onsen near Tokyo - the dial jumped and everything. The man I am sure believed it - I kept my mouth shut.