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Old 07-22-2014, 06:46 AM   #76
Asou
 
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Re: Irimi Nage

When do you guys rise your hand to prepare for the throw in ura? While spinning? or while moving forward to throw? If I want to make my uke go lower, How do I lower my center? By bending my knee? Or drop my shoulders?

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
a few issues would like to point out. being sempai, assuming your skill is higher than the others, meaning you are in a teaching position when you are uke. the good way to train those lower than you in skills is to give them just enough resistance for them to work "through" the puzzle, but not to the point of completely frustrated which accomplished little other than raising frustration level and make you look like an ass. then there is resistance and there is stupidity. being stiff and turning your back on someone that can inflict harm on you from behind is stupid. something to think about, when someone is in your dead corner, what are your options? one of the options will get uke into the "face plant" situation, other options will not.

one of my sensei told me that you need to question everything, every assumption, every assertion, even past experiences, even from experts. asking why and figuring out the answers. don't just blindly copy things. you have to think about these stuffs.
I wish everyone knows this. Maybe my dojo is McDojo.
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Old 07-22-2014, 09:34 AM   #77
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Re: Irimi Nage

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Konstantinus Darwin wrote: View Post
When do you guys rise your hand to prepare for the throw in ura? While spinning? or while moving forward to throw? If I want to make my uke go lower, How do I lower my center? By bending my knee? Or drop my shoulders?
.
Hint: your shoulders should always be "dropped" from the moment you bow in, so that you cannot further "drop" them.

Hint number2: People will say "bend your knees" but really it is dropping your center by opening and relaxing your hip/groin and not even thinking about how the knees work in response to that.

Janet Rosen
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Old 07-22-2014, 10:38 AM   #78
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Re: Irimi Nage

Quote:
Konstantinus Darwin wrote: View Post
When do you guys rise your hand to prepare for the throw in ura? While spinning? or while moving forward to throw? If I want to make my uke go lower, How do I lower my center? By bending my knee? Or drop my shoulders?

I wish everyone knows this. Maybe my dojo is McDojo.
Prior to moving forward in the throw. You want to steal uke's balance before trying to throw them, in every technique.

Some people advocate bending the knee. If that works for them, great. You'll never catch me doing that on purpose, as I'm an advocate of not compromising my posture and balance (unless its like a shikodachi type stance). I lower myself by lengthening my stance while keeping upright and centered.

As said, your shoulders should not be 'up' in aikido. Dropping your shoulders can be very tough. Having a seasoned senpai watch over you, and paying attention in mirrors helps.

My basic iriminage is;
-intercept and offbalance uke (uke snugly attached to my body)
-initiate and finish arm movement before uke can regain balance from initial interception - arm finishes around chest level, uke is completely off-balance (katameru)
-while maintaining uke in your center, C-step past uke's centerline then around to the far corner, while cutting arm the rest of the way down to direct where uke falls.
-In this version Iriminage is, in its basic form, a throw done with nage's whole body, not just their arm.

Ichi Go, Ichi Ei!
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Old 07-23-2014, 09:39 AM   #79
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Re: Irimi Nage

judging from today's training, well, I think my dojo need to train more on ukemi and breakfalls. Every nook and cranny of it. Everything.So many healthy shodans (no condition) still afraid of doing breakfalls. Still stiff, still not flowing. I don't think we can improve more if we don't do something about learning to take ukemi.
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Old 07-24-2014, 12:19 PM   #80
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Re: Irimi Nage

Quote:
Konstantinus Darwin wrote: View Post
When do you guys rise your hand to prepare for the throw in ura? While spinning? or while moving forward to throw? If I want to make my uke go lower, How do I lower my center? By bending my knee? Or drop my shoulders?
my hands/arms don't go down. something to consider: it's easy to throw someone down when they are up, than throw them up, when they are down. i don't like the "face plant" approach, because if you run into someone who know how to wrestle/judo/bjj and so on, they will likely drop and go for your legs. i don't want to give them that opening. if you run into a bagua person, you are history too. but then again, if you run into bagua folks, they probably eat you alive. capoera will kick you in the head while they are down. too many openings in the "face plant" approach. i prefer my uke up on their toes the whole time until i drop him/her/it at the end.

"budo is putting on cold, wet, sweat stained gi with a smile and a snarl" - your truly
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Old 07-24-2014, 04:24 PM   #81
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Re: Irimi Nage

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my hands/arms don't go down. something to consider: it's easy to throw someone down when they are up... i prefer my uke up on their toes the whole time until i drop him/her/it at the end.

Janet Rosen
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Old 07-25-2014, 06:59 PM   #82
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Re: Irimi Nage

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Prior to moving forward in the throw. You want to steal uke's balance before trying to throw them, in every technique.

Some people advocate bending the knee. If that works for them, great. You'll never catch me doing that on purpose, as I'm an advocate of not compromising my posture and balance (unless its like a shikodachi type stance). I lower myself by lengthening my stance while keeping upright and centered.

As said, your shoulders should not be 'up' in aikido. Dropping your shoulders can be very tough. Having a seasoned senpai watch over you, and paying attention in mirrors helps.

My basic iriminage is;
-intercept and offbalance uke (uke snugly attached to my body)
-initiate and finish arm movement before uke can regain balance from initial interception - arm finishes around chest level, uke is completely off-balance (katameru)
-while maintaining uke in your center, C-step past uke's centerline then around to the far corner, while cutting arm the rest of the way down to direct where uke falls.
-In this version Iriminage is, in its basic form, a throw done with nage's whole body, not just their arm.
I like your fundamentals, especially not losing own's balance. Thank you for the step-by-step basics. I can imagine that. Nice C-steps!

So, where is your position when taking uke's head? 45 degree behind uke? Or on uke's side?

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Hint: your shoulders should always be "dropped" from the moment you bow in, so that you cannot further "drop" them.

Hint number2: People will say "bend your knees" but really it is dropping your center by opening and relaxing your hip/groin and not even thinking about how the knees work in response to that.
do you mean like moving forward in a big step? Because when we do that, our center is lowered slightly then raised up while not compromising own's balance.

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
my hands/arms don't go down. something to consider: it's easy to throw someone down when they are up, than throw them up, when they are down. i don't like the "face plant" approach, because if you run into someone who know how to wrestle/judo/bjj and so on, they will likely drop and go for your legs. i don't want to give them that opening. if you run into a bagua person, you are history too. but then again, if you run into bagua folks, they probably eat you alive. capoera will kick you in the head while they are down. too many openings in the "face plant" approach. i prefer my uke up on their toes the whole time until i drop him/her/it at the end.
but if you can snug your biceps below their chin, you can almost always raise them up by raising your arm. What I mean is, maybe not too low like a faceplant. Just lower it (after a nice snug to the bicep) then up, like a wave, then drop your weight forward.
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Old 07-25-2014, 07:45 PM   #83
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Re: Irimi Nage

It's so frustrating trying to describe this stuff online. Are you ever in Australia? Let me know if you are and let's see if we can do some training together.
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Old 07-25-2014, 08:32 PM   #84
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Re: Irimi Nage

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It's so frustrating trying to describe this stuff online. Are you ever in Australia? Let me know if you are and let's see if we can do some training together.
hahaha, exactly my friend . thanks for the good intention. I'd like to visit queensland or brisbane if I have the time. I heard there are many yoshinkan dojos in australia? Is Morihiro Saito Shihan in Australia and from yoshinkan?
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Old 07-25-2014, 08:53 PM   #85
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Re: Irimi Nage

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Konstantinus Darwin wrote: View Post
hahaha, exactly my friend . thanks for the good intention. I'd like to visit queensland or brisbane if I have the time. I heard there are many yoshinkan dojos in australia? Is Morihiro Saito Shihan in Australia and from yoshinkan?
Morihiro Saito passed away about 10 years ago, and he did not practice Yoshinkan. You might be thinking of Michiharu Mori, who teaches Yoshinkan in Queensland. I think one of the students at our dojo used to train with him.
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Old 07-25-2014, 09:19 PM   #86
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Re: Irimi Nage

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Konstantinus Darwin wrote: View Post
I like your fundamentals, especially not losing own's balance. Thank you for the step-by-step basics. I can imagine that. Nice C-steps!

So, where is your position when taking uke's head? 45 degree behind uke? Or on uke's side?
I'm not exactly sure, it really is different depending on how uke is coming in.

I tend to be more on the side or just behind, like you suggest. But I've even been in front sometimes. So long as uke's balance is compromised and I have their center, I'm happy.

Ichi Go, Ichi Ei!
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Old 07-25-2014, 09:24 PM   #87
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Re: Irimi Nage

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Morihiro Saito passed away about 10 years ago, and he did not practice Yoshinkan. You might be thinking of Michiharu Mori, who teaches Yoshinkan in Queensland. I think one of the students at our dojo used to train with him.
oh right, you are correct! My bad! Because I know only the surname "Mori Shihan" and only that name comes to mind. Sometimes I'm thinking of going abroad to practice. Seeing the other countries way of aikido training. What's that gonna be called? Aikido tourism? Heheh.
Maybe one-two weeks everyday?

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I'm not exactly sure, it really is different depending on how uke is coming in.

I tend to be more on the side or just behind, like you suggest. But I've even been in front sometimes. So long as uke's balance is compromised and I have their center, I'm happy.
right at the basic principles.

All of you can tobi ukemi? And feather falls?
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Old 08-13-2014, 08:45 AM   #88
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Re: Irimi Nage

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oh right, you are correct! My bad! Because I know only the surname "Mori Shihan" and only that name comes to mind. Sometimes I'm thinking of going abroad to practice. Seeing the other countries way of aikido training. What's that gonna be called? Aikido tourism? Heheh.
Maybe one-two weeks everyday?

right at the basic principles.

All of you can tobi ukemi? And feather falls?
Not sure on what you mean with that last question. Tobi = jump, so I am guessing you are asking if people can do a soft jump break fall? I land softly from those falls, but the way I do iriminage doesn't allow for a jump break fall to make much sense, or be possible, out of it. I don't throw someone until their head is well behind their hips - which would make tobi ukemi not a good idea unless I changed use's orientation as I threw.

Ichi Go, Ichi Ei!
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Old 08-28-2014, 08:21 PM   #89
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Re: Irimi Nage

guys, where do you usually cut? Are you looking for the throat/neck when cutting with iriminage? You put your biceps in the throat, then raise it, and drop forward?

well, because last night some small guy said iriminage is clearly a technique to be used in such disadvantageous position for a small guy like him
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Old 08-28-2014, 09:51 PM   #90
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Re: Irimi Nage

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Konstantinus Darwin wrote: View Post
guys, where do you usually cut? Are you looking for the throat/neck when cutting with iriminage? You put your biceps in the throat, then raise it, and drop forward?

well, because last night some small guy said iriminage is clearly a technique to be used in such disadvantageous position for a small guy like him
None of the above. after his center has passed mine, I either do a kokyu wave coming up uke's front and breaking over/behind his head or I come straight up his center line with my hand. Relative heights of no consequence because if I haven't brought uke to my level well before this then there is no finish.
Then again, I'm not a guys

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Old 08-28-2014, 11:43 PM   #91
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Re: Irimi Nage

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Konstantinus Darwin wrote: View Post
guys, where do you usually cut? Are you looking for the throat/neck when cutting with iriminage? You put your biceps in the throat, then raise it, and drop forward?

well, because last night some small guy said iriminage is clearly a technique to be used in such disadvantageous position for a small guy like him
Which cut? Irimi nage contains as many as three, depending on the variation.

Why would I want my bicep anywhere near uke's throat?

I'm shorter than most of my training partners. If I'm going to do irimi nage, ideally the initial turn will bring his head down to the level of my chest or lower. If I manage that, why on earth would I want to raise him back up?

Katherine
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Old 08-29-2014, 12:54 AM   #92
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Re: Irimi Nage

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Konstantinus Darwin wrote: View Post
guys, where do you usually cut? Are you looking for the throat/neck when cutting with iriminage? You put your biceps in the throat, then raise it, and drop forward?

well, because last night some small guy said iriminage is clearly a technique to be used in such disadvantageous position for a small guy like him
What both Katherine and Janet said is absolutely correct.

Just to add to that, if you are talking about the last cut, which I assume you are, then I cut an imaginary space beyond where uke is standing.
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Old 09-11-2014, 08:01 PM   #93
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Re: Irimi Nage

It's impossible to move people in a static and balanced position. I think the initial rotation is generated by the attacker when the nage move inside to the attacker as a response. From then, nage simply grab the head/neck,collar, whatever, to secure the rotation, unbalance attacker, and cut down

oh well

the more I study irimi nage, the less I understand

I'm lost

But that does not mean I'm giving up on this technique
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Old 09-11-2014, 08:49 PM   #94
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Re: Irimi Nage

Nope. That's what I thought for the first 8 or 9 years of my Aikido study, but it's wrong.
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Old 09-12-2014, 02:18 AM   #95
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Re: Irimi Nage

Irimi nage
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Old 09-12-2014, 02:42 AM   #96
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Re: Irimi Nage

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Nope. That's what I thought for the first 8 or 9 years of my Aikido study, but it's wrong.
How so?? Or more to the point balance has to be taken some how for any technique to work and someone who is static and well-balanced (even more so when his name is Mongo) makes that very difficult. Of course then he is no threat but really please expand on your point.

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Old 09-12-2014, 03:04 AM   #97
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Re: Irimi Nage

I believe Okamoto sensei demonstrates wonderfully in the link that Carsten posted.
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Old 09-12-2014, 03:40 AM   #98
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Re: Irimi Nage

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I believe Okamoto sensei demonstrates wonderfully in the link that Carsten posted.
Wonderful movement, graceful but no where does it demonstrate irimi nage against a static well balanced uke. Perhaps by well-balance I mean someone who does not wish their balance taken which was not the case here - there was a clear uke/nage dynamic.

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Old 09-12-2014, 04:02 AM   #99
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Re: Irimi Nage

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETEXGiQcTEA

Best I can do...
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Old 09-12-2014, 04:29 AM   #100
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Re: Irimi Nage

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That video tells me that perhaps we are talking cross-purposes - it demonstrates much more clearly what your are talking about and allows me to clarify my point.

Pat - in my view - clearly takes uke's balance before applying iriminage. You may be seeing one technique but I see a beautiful rendition of Shodokan dogma. Kuzushi proceeds technique. In this case kuzushi is applied through ushiro-ate and irimi nage is applied to an unbalanced uke.

To add fuel to the fire - uke being static is a disadvantage. I would say that a well balanced uke is even harder to throw if he is allowed to move.

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