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Old 11-15-2013, 05:54 PM   #76
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

Quote:
Jean Hardy wrote: View Post
Even in a suit up exercise you cannot do the real thing because the suit up guy will not really feel the hits or almost not so he will not stop attacking, pain or shock not being present to stop him.
Use the minimum amount of protective equipment.

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Old 11-15-2013, 11:21 PM   #77
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

I have two old knife holes in me already and have met my quota of stitches. But I have learned some things along the way. My first priority in a knife assault would be getting my two hands on their one knife hand/arm and grounding that point somewhere. Everything else can be dealt with after that.

Break the knife if you can, or at least kick/throw it away. You want it out of the picture, asap. Because if the tables turn it can come back to haunt you. Until it's out of action, you can't use chokes or anything that's not immobilizing the knife and going for debilitating damage. IMO.
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Old 11-16-2013, 04:45 AM   #78
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Re: How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

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Jean Hardy wrote: View Post
Kevin I understand what your are saying, the best way to find out what you can do or not is to suit up and try to approch the real thing even if possible with the emotions unleached during a real attack . I just would want to see some video where the instructor prones the role of atemi during the first seconds of the encounter, a punch to the nose, a kick to the knee... anything and see what would happen not just do a technique supposed to work.
Even in a suit up exercise you cannot do the real thing because the suit up guy will not really feel the hits or almost not so he will not stop attacking, pain or shock not being present to stop him.
Spear suits are not too bad for doing this kinda training. Redman suits are too padded as you mention, and you will not get an appropriate response. The Spear Suits (we also called them Blauer suits), transmit force and pain fairly well and you get decent responses without much risk to serious injury.

Here is a video of a training segment I did with some of my guys in Afghanistan a few years back. It is not weapons, but we were training the ground fighting aspect of a fight. You can pretty much go all out, but we limit full on kicks to the head from standing because they are simply too dangerous. The idea is to keep your feet between your opponent and your head, which the guy on the ground does a good job of doing. Keep in mind that he is not simply laying there trying to pull guard, but stand back up if he can. The guy standing doesn't want him back up so engages to keep him on the ground.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-rZAR6DH20

I don't have any video of knife work, but we would do the same type of training with a knife and they are a game changer when introduced into the fight.

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Old 11-16-2013, 04:47 AM   #79
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Re: How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

The thing with reality training is you have to employ constraints in training. You simply cannot train all out NHB. You have to have constraints and limitations.

If you do them correctly though, you can train safely, while encouraging the development of the skills/reactions that are desired.

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Old 11-16-2013, 04:59 AM   #80
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Re: How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

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Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
I have two old knife holes in me already and have met my quota of stitches. But I have learned some things along the way. My first priority in a knife assault would be getting my two hands on their one knife hand/arm and grounding that point somewhere. Everything else can be dealt with after that.

Break the knife if you can, or at least kick/throw it away. You want it out of the picture, asap. Because if the tables turn it can come back to haunt you. Until it's out of action, you can't use chokes or anything that's not immobilizing the knife and going for debilitating damage. IMO.
I agree your priority is to gain control of the knife. However, I think the dynamics of training require you to break this down into a smaller subset of problems that need to be solved. Gaining control of the knife requires that you have control of yourself and your opponent in some way. In my experiences, you need to disrupt the attack and then work to gain control of the knife.

There are a number of things in this dynamic from you pre-emptively entering to off balance and disrupt, to you in a very bad postion and then disrupting, orienting on the knife, and gaining control of it.

I think this portion of training is left out way too often and we just "let it go" and say "priority is to gain control of the knife"...and only practice that phase.

Not sure I'd spend much time on breaking a knife...not sure how you'd do that, your not gonna break my Cold Steel. Also even if you did, it is still a weapon and can inflict damage. I'd rather focus on the control.

I would simply ask you to consider about the small details you need to do that lead to control of the knife...that is all I am really saying. Again, I agree, getting it out of the picture as fast as possible is paramount.

Agree also, I am not too worried about chokes or other restraints until the knife is under control an in my possession.

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Old 11-16-2013, 05:50 AM   #81
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I don't have any video of knife work, but we would do the same type of training with a knife and they are a game changer when introduced into the fight.
Here are some:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udwE_C7x3DA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llP1_PB2_JE

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Old 11-16-2013, 06:08 AM   #82
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Re: How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

Dear Demetrio,
Watched the first vid clip.In the scenario its one guy with knife the other withAk 47?
Why did Mr Ak 47 not simply do a Harrison Ford job on the knifeman ala Raiders of the Lost Ark?In a word shoot the guy !!! Cheers, Joe.
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Old 11-16-2013, 07:44 AM   #83
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Re: How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

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Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Demetrio,
Watched the first vid clip.In the scenario its one guy with knife the other withAk 47?
Looks a M4 to me

Quote:
Why did Mr Ak 47 not simply do a Harrison Ford job on the knifeman ala Raiders of the Lost Ark?In a word shoot the guy !!! Cheers, Joe.
Maybe he has run out of ammo, weapon malfunction, jammed round....

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Old 11-16-2013, 08:23 AM   #84
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

In the first video with the M4, I am not really sure what the training objective was....however, I think it does illustrate the concept of aliveness on behalf of the guy with the knife. He attacks in a more realistic way than is seen in many training methodologies. Again, I am just not sure why the guy with the rifle did what he did. Could be that these guys are students and are new at doing this and simple have not figured this out yet. For me, the point is that it is possible to train fairly realistically.

In the second video. It demonstrates a drill we do in MACP. You never know when the knife will become a part of the fight. Again, the level of training of these students is very low...so their responses are not the best example of what to do. However, in our methodology, we provide a framework of failure and then they build success around that. So, while the responses they are choosing are certainly no optimal...the training conditions encourage a paradigm shift and begin to train correct responses through "negative" reinforcement.

I think the videos illustrate that you must gain control of the opponent before you can disarm. Both individuals, fail to gain control of their opponent and therefore, continue to loose until they will do so.

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Old 11-16-2013, 10:17 AM   #85
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Re: How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

In video #1, the guy with the impact weapon (the AR) is wrestling a knife wielder. He needs to create some space and start simulating some bone breaking.
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Old 11-16-2013, 09:44 PM   #86
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Re: How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

The ambush sucks. I played paintball for many years. We KNEW ambushes or hidden attacks were out there. We were ALERT, looking for them. And yet - still you would get whacked out of nowhere. The usual result was you were out, no chance to do anything. Most ambushes are like that. If you get surprised, you lose. Period. End of story.

That being said... If you were lucky and survived the initial attack, you had to MOVE and counterattack immediately - essentially enter and attack hard and fast with everything you had.

Now, over time we developed tactics to counter ambushes. Getting the ambusher to reveal himself (or herself) early and increase the odds of surviving the initial attack was always good. I was influenced by Audie Murphy, the most decorated US soldier in WWII, who stated in his autobiography that he would approach potential sniper positions from afar out in the open and invariably induce the sniper to get impatient and take the shot early and miss.

Another tactic we liked was to guess the most logical ambush positions (by thinking like an ambusher) and essentially flank those positions to dislodge any potential ambusher. Feigning indifference by appearing to be moving straight into the potential ambush but then veering off at the last moment can also cause the ambusher to spring a much lower percentage attack thinking their moment was slipping away.

As far as knives go... My practice with "realistic" knife attacks - ambush or no - leaves me feeling naked and vulnerable. Avoid the knife and strike hard probably would work given the experiments we tried (obviously we didn't actually strike each other hard...). That's what the Systema guys show. It seems like the ONLY thing to try against someone wielding TWO knives... But those only work if you read/see/feel the attack coming...

Good Aiki probably wouldn't hurt of course...

All paths lead to death. I strongly recommend taking one of the scenic routes.
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Old 11-17-2013, 01:16 AM   #87
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Smile Re: How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

Quote:
Robin Johnson wrote: View Post
The ambush sucks. I played paintball for many years. We KNEW ambushes or hidden attacks were out there. We were ALERT, looking for them. And yet - still you would get whacked out of nowhere. The usual result was you were out, no chance to do anything. Most ambushes are like that. If you get surprised, you lose. Period. End of story.

That being said... If you were lucky and survived the initial attack, you had to MOVE and counterattack immediately - essentially enter and attack hard and fast with everything you had.

Now, over time we developed tactics to counter ambushes. Getting the ambusher to reveal himself (or herself) early and increase the odds of surviving the initial attack was always good. I was influenced by Audie Murphy, the most decorated US soldier in WWII, who stated in his autobiography that he would approach potential sniper positions from afar out in the open and invariably induce the sniper to get impatient and take the shot early and miss.

Another tactic we liked was to guess the most logical ambush positions (by thinking like an ambusher) and essentially flank those positions to dislodge any potential ambusher. Feigning indifference by appearing to be moving straight into the potential ambush but then veering off at the last moment can also cause the ambusher to spring a much lower percentage attack thinking their moment was slipping away.

As far as knives go... My practice with "realistic" knife attacks - ambush or no - leaves me feeling naked and vulnerable. Avoid the knife and strike hard probably would work given the experiments we tried (obviously we didn't actually strike each other hard...). That's what the Systema guys show. It seems like the ONLY thing to try against someone wielding TWO knives... But those only work if you read/see/feel the attack coming...

Good Aiki probably wouldn't hurt of course...
Dear Robin,
I digress here from the subject matter.You mention Audie Murphy, one of my childhood heroes.He was a great cowboy actor especially when he co starred with Dan Duryea .Audie's biography should be mandatory reading by everyone.He was dirt poor , joined the army,and became the highest decorated soldier ever.He made Rambo look like a big girl's blouse.Audie died in a plane crash and he is buried in Arlington Cemetery. Cheers, Joe.

Ps In Glasgow he was nick named the 24hr cowboy [a play on his Christian name Audie ie Audie/all day.Glasgow venacular say AW DAY instead of All day while jawing.
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Old 11-17-2013, 07:12 AM   #88
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Re: How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

Audie was definitely an amazing guy.

All paths lead to death. I strongly recommend taking one of the scenic routes.
AWA - Shodan - Started Aikido training in 2008
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Old 11-17-2013, 10:18 AM   #89
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Re: How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

I said the attacks in the video I posted were more realistic. They still telegraph and Uke is way too compliant in my opinion BUT I do believe they are headed in the right directions throwing hooks, haymakers, more straights to the face, etc. All technique aside, I think they are a good example of how many, if considering self-defense, should be changing some of their training methods.

As far as knife defense, I consider it to be completely theoretical. I don't believe in 'catching the arm'. wielding the knife. In my own training, even with no adrenaline altering my motor skills, I get cut almost every time and many times, in a deadly spot. Imagine someone wields a shiny knife with and you can see the intention in their eyes. I don't think you're gonna get a kotegaeshi as easy as you think. It's more than likely going to turn into a scrappy blood fest. Here, like someone else mentioned, atemi is more than likely necessary.

Great video on this subject. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E61jnJe_1SI
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Old 11-17-2013, 01:59 PM   #90
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Re: How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

Good video, the guy talks reality but yet another video where the expert does not show or teach atemi. Why is that ?
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Old 11-17-2013, 02:00 PM   #91
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Re: How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

Quote:
Logan Light wrote: View Post
Great video on this subject. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E61jnJe_1SI
I really like his point about how some folks will close that space; often trying to touch nerves to overwhelm the judgment processes (even though they're not always explicitly aware of this). For me (and my personally low-level of training), the biggest issue I keep trying to wrap my mind around is the fact that many people will try and get in your face as if that weren't an invitation to get popped. I don't want to escalate first unless I'm convinced I'm going to be attacked because it's hard to dial the situation back at that point. On the other hand, I don't want to let anyone inside my "fight interval" (maai); I have kids and I'm not going to let someone potentially take me away from them. This is a big reason why I place so much weight on the mental/perception side of things and try to read as much about a person through how they behave, as well as finding ways to create distraction. After that it's all about the physical training we put into our body; how we go about resolving that connection we've been forced into. This is why it's important to train from all possible points and circumstances in the timeline; from slight advantage, to equal footing, to various states of disadvantage. Focusing on any one of those at the expense of the others would seem to create the potential for imbalance. On some level we can address these in standard keiko, but it requires a degree of spontaneity allowed. In the Shodokan method, this starts with the use of feints in randori/jiyuwaza. In other sytems it's addressed differently, if at all...which is why it's important to explore different schools/approaches at some point.
Quote:
Jean wrote:
Good video, the guy talks reality but yet another video where the expert does not show or teach atemi. Why is that ?
Who knows, probably have to ask him. Emphasizing something else, perhaps?

Last edited by mathewjgano : 11-17-2013 at 02:03 PM.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 11-17-2013, 02:10 PM   #92
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

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Jean Hardy wrote: View Post
Good video, the guy talks reality but yet another video where the expert does not show or teach atemi. Why is that ?
I'd suggest Dog Brothers "Die Less Often" series or Karl Tanswell's "STAB" for a more atemi based approach to sensible knife defense.

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Old 01-12-2014, 11:10 AM   #93
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Re: How to deal with aggressive, non-compliant attackers? And discussion on atemi.

attackers are usually aggressive and very seldom compliant... but atemi does help deal with both those conditions.

Blair Presson
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