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Old 04-17-2013, 08:48 AM   #26
Cliff Judge
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Re: Bokken, Jo, Sword?

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
i was thinking what if in the pictures there were meat cleaver, would that mean we have aikido cleaver too? would love to learn aikido cleaver. i am more comfortable with the cleaver than the sword. i can giving life with the cleaver, but seem to have a hard time giving life with the sword.
MMMmmm....cubed meat. STOP PHI you are making me hungry!
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Old 04-17-2013, 05:54 PM   #27
Gerardo Torres
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Re: Bokken, Jo, Sword?

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
Probably out of context again...
http://pinterest.com/pin/70720656620911659/
I hope O Sensei didn't cut his thumb that day

(He's doing a sort of thing often told not to do... in sword arts).
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Old 04-18-2013, 02:01 AM   #28
JJF
 
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Re: Bokken, Jo, Sword?

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Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
Do you see something in these pictures that you can identify as the defining characteristics of an "Aikido sword" though, as opposed to some other type of sword?
Yes sure.. it's right there don't you see it?

- Jųrgen Jakob Friis

Inspiration - Aspiration - Perspiration
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Old 04-18-2013, 07:23 AM   #29
Carl Thompson
 
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Re: Bokken, Jo, Sword?

Are there any pictures of Osensei actually training with (or at least holding) a real sword rather than a bokken? (Note: I mean more than just the ceremonial photos shown so far).

Carl
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Old 04-18-2013, 08:19 AM   #30
hughrbeyer
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Re: Bokken, Jo, Sword?

There's video of O-Sensei practicing with a "real" (metal) sword on the Aikido Journal DVDs. As I recall, he's showing techniques where uke is trying to prevent nage from drawing the sword.

Evolution doesn't prove God doesn't exist, any more than hammers prove carpenters don't exist.
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Old 04-18-2013, 01:22 PM   #31
Marie Noelle Fequiere
 
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Re: Bokken, Jo, Sword?

My instructor recommends that the jo be as long as the distance between the floor and one's solar plexus. It makes sense to me that one's weapon be adapted to their height.
As for the sword, how long have you been training? It's a very important question. You might want to use a bokken for a few months before trying a live blade.
Maybe two years ago, I started a thread, it was called "Need help to choose a katana", or something like that. I received a lot of extremely precious advice. Read it if you manage to find it.
Now, from my experience, I suggest that you try to draw a sword before buying it. Some are for displaying only. Still, I tried my chance and ordered one on amazon.com, the "Classic Crane Tsuba Handmade Samurai Katana Sword". It has some flaws, but I can draw it without any problem, and I can train with it. And it's cheap. I just avoid trying to actually cutting something with it, as I have been advised.
Ask Sensei if you are ready to train with a sharp blade.
I shall resurrect my old tread, as I have some updates to share with all those who contributed with their advice. If I can find the time to look for it.
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Old 04-18-2013, 02:54 PM   #32
Carl Thompson
 
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Re: Bokken, Jo, Sword?

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
There's video of O-Sensei practicing with a "real" (metal) sword on the Aikido Journal DVDs. As I recall, he's showing techniques where uke is trying to prevent nage from drawing the sword.
Thanks Hugh. Are there any stills available online rather than DVD? Then we could all see and discuss them a bit more easily. Also, I'd really like to know if there are any photos of Osensei actually wielding a katana (not just posing with or drawing one).

Carl
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Old 04-18-2013, 05:34 PM   #33
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Re: Bokken, Jo, Sword?

Quote:
Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
Thanks Hugh. Are there any stills available online rather than DVD? Then we could all see and discuss them a bit more easily. Also, I'd really like to know if there are any photos of Osensei actually wielding a katana (not just posing with or drawing one).

Carl
Does it really matter whether we see Ueshiba actually fighting with a live blade. Anyone who knows the least bit about Aiki-do, understands that the sword is in the spirit of the fighters, in their minds their bodies their actions so on and so forth. Don't idolize the inventor. Sure don't get me wrong, he was a great guy and all. Damn it he invented this martial art, and so hats off to him. But as has been noted on another thread, there may well now be Aikidoka who can wield this form more subtlely or even effectively than the master did, so does that make them better than him? No, it just makes them different. Equally if you want to see good weapon work, buy a gi and join an aikido dojo. Maybe one day when you are good enough, they will even get the bokkens out. As far as training with a sharp piece of metal goes, what is the thing with this? Goto the above mentioned school, give the sensei a back hander, buy a cutting sword from the internet and give it to him, and bob's your uncle you have your sword. O sensei taught us the way of peace. The fact that we can see him with his Kantana should be regarded as a bonus more than anything else imo!
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Old 04-19-2013, 06:02 AM   #34
Carl Thompson
 
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Re: Bokken, Jo, Sword?

Quote:
John Robinson wrote: View Post
Does it really matter whether we see Ueshiba actually fighting with a live blade. Anyone who knows the least bit about Aiki-do, understands that the sword is in the spirit of the fighters, in their minds their bodies their actions so on and so forth. Don't idolize the inventor. Sure don't get me wrong, he was a great guy and all.
(snip)
Hello John. I'm not interested in whether it "matters" at this stage nor in idolizing anyone. I just want to see how he holds a sword compared to a bokken.

Regards

Carl
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Old 04-19-2013, 08:13 AM   #35
sakumeikan
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Re: Bokken, Jo, Sword?

Quote:
Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
Hello John. I'm not interested in whether it "matters" at this stage nor in idolizing anyone. I just want to see how he holds a sword compared to a bokken.

Regards

Carl
Dear Carl,
I would suggest that O Sensei would hold the real sword /bokken in the same manner. Check out some Batto ho stuff on Youtube.[not O Sensei ]Possibly Biran Online may have some clips. Hope you are well, Cheers, Joe.
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Old 04-19-2013, 08:17 AM   #36
sakumeikan
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Re: Bokken, Jo, Sword?

Quote:
Jųrgen Jakob Friis wrote: View Post
Yes sure.. it's right there don't you see it?
Hi Jorgen,
Be a nice lad and tell our avid readers what YOU see. I must need a new pair of glasses or I have missed something somewhere.
Cheers, Joe.
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Old 04-19-2013, 09:12 AM   #37
grondahl
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Re: Bokken, Jo, Sword?

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Carl,
I would suggest that O Sensei would hold the real sword /bokken in the same manner. Check out some Batto ho stuff on Youtube.[not O Sensei ]Possibly Biran Online may have some clips. Hope you are well, Cheers, Joe.
Is Muso Shinden ryu aikido? Does it share the same principles? Do you have riai between your batto-ho and your taijutsu-practice?
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Old 04-19-2013, 11:09 AM   #38
Cliff Judge
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Re: Bokken, Jo, Sword?

Yep...many sword arts have unique nuances in how they hold the sword.

I do expect Osensei would hold a shinken or iaito in a very similar grip to how he has been photographed holding a bokken, though.
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Old 04-19-2013, 07:38 PM   #39
Carl Thompson
 
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Re: Bokken, Jo, Sword?

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Carl,
I would suggest that O Sensei would hold the real sword /bokken in the same manner. Check out some Batto ho stuff on Youtube.[not O Sensei ]Possibly Biran Online may have some clips. Hope you are well, Cheers, Joe.
Thank you Joe Sensei

I had a look at Biran Online
. I also have a friend who does the Chiba weapons and every once in a while we get someone who does batto-ho etc here. I once visited a Nishio - lineage school where I was specifically told to hold the bokken without the "wringing out" to accommodate the tsuba.

In any case, it seems Osensei didn't teach aikido much with a live blade. I wonder if his opinion on how one has to be held might have influenced this (apart from the obvious reasons, like tanren uchi with a blade would be over-with really quickly).

Carl
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Old 04-20-2013, 02:37 AM   #40
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Bokken, Jo, Sword?

Quote:
Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
In any case, it seems Osensei didn't teach aikido much with a live blade.
I was told that he did, until an lethal accident happened during a demonstration.
But I can't verify this.

There where/are teacher who use live blades in context of their aikidō.
Asai Katsuaki and Noro Masamichi are known for using shinken during practice.
Christian Tissier used a iaito for the batto jutsu as far as I know. There is a video of this somewhere out there .
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Old 04-22-2013, 01:44 PM   #41
Marie Noelle Fequiere
 
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Re: Bokken, Jo, Sword?

I found that when I train with a live blade, I am more careful with my technique. This is why I think that after a few months of training, one needs to try a live blade. Also, when I tried to draw a sword for the first time, I found that drawing the bokken from my belt did not prepare me for that.
This is why even though I cannot afford a good sword and have to settle for something cheap, I think that handling a real sword is necessary for mastering the art.
Of course, if O Sensei had such a terrible experience, I would not blame him for hanging his real sword, I would probably do the same.
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Old 04-22-2013, 02:22 PM   #42
Cliff Judge
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Re: Bokken, Jo, Sword?

Quote:
Marie Noelle Fequiere wrote: View Post
I found that when I train with a live blade, I am more careful with my technique. This is why I think that after a few months of training, one needs to try a live blade. Also, when I tried to draw a sword for the first time, I found that drawing the bokken from my belt did not prepare me for that.
This is why even though I cannot afford a good sword and have to settle for something cheap, I think that handling a real sword is necessary for mastering the art.
Of course, if O Sensei had such a terrible experience, I would not blame him for hanging his real sword, I would probably do the same.
May I ask what it is that you do when you handle a live sword?
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Old 04-23-2013, 02:59 PM   #43
Robert Cowham
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Re: Bokken, Jo, Sword?

I have studied Kashima no Tachi with Inaba sensei for quite some time. He encourages practicing with a live blade as you need to work carefully. It also challenges you and requires a strong tanden. Working with an iaito can teach you bad habits - a shinken keeps you honest.

In terms of actual instruction I had only a few hours direct teaching, before working with my own shinken and taking the time to "get comfortable" with it and with practice (primarily battojutsu). That said, I had lots of training on tanden and working in fairly intensive way with bokken previously - it really helps.

Note that Inaba sensei is big on safety. It's about judging when someone is ready to do it, but it doesn't take long to get them going subsequently. And they can learn a lot on their own (as long as they don't act stupidly!)
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Old 04-23-2013, 03:23 PM   #44
Robert Cowham
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Re: Bokken, Jo, Sword?

p.s. treat shinken with care - you don't want to end up like this guy:

http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...PHOTOS-ON-P-2/

And if you are squeamish don't look at the attachments on page 2.
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Old 05-20-2013, 01:04 PM   #45
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Bokken, Jo, Sword?

Ok... Here's my take:
The jo we use are proportional to your size, unlike the ones used in Jodo which have a standardized. Ours fit under the armpit when you have your arm stretched stright out to the side.

Bokken... well, there are a lot of choices. To my mind most cheap bokken have handles that are too short for a proper grip. I buy my bokken at Kingfisher where I can get an 11" handle rather than the nine inch that most cheapos have.

Unless you intend to have a real sword teacher, do not listen to the folks who are advising you to get a live blade... It's just like the statements in A Christmas Story... "You'll shoot your eye out kid". One miss on a draw and you can be minus a finger or two easily. Get proper instruction. I'd stay with a good practice blade. You usually have to get into the four hundred dollar range to have much choice about handle length and fittings. The really cheap ones are more dangerous than they are worth. Absolute minimum ioutlay would be $200 from Tozand or E-Bogu, some reputable place that doesn't sell crap. I had a student who didn;t listen on this and showed up with a $50 piec of garbage that I wouldn't even let him use in the dojo because it was to dangerous.

Unless you are in a dojo which does a lot of weapons work, I doubt you'll need a metal blade anyway. My students do have them. I wanted them to know at least the basics of how to use a sword. Several have live balades and we do some cutting once in a while just to see how our technique is. But this isn;t standard for most Aikido dojos.

That's my take on it.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 05-21-2013, 08:09 AM   #46
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Re: Bokken, Jo, Sword?

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
Probably out of context again...

Sorry, couldn't help but have these two pictures pop into my head.

http://blog.aikidojournal.com/2011/1...sei-from-1922/

http://pinterest.com/pin/70720656620911659/
These are completely irrelevant. Ueshiba lived in a time when family of samurai lineage would have had swords as family heirlooms. The fact he has a sword stand with metal swords means absolutely zilch about what he was teaching.

クリス の 合気ブログ Kyoto Kenshusei
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Old 05-21-2013, 08:15 AM   #47
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Re: Bokken, Jo, Sword?

Quote:
Allan Davis wrote: View Post
What length Jo staff is most popular for Aikido practice? Also, what to look for if looking at buying a metal sword? All around, to display, maybe practice some.. etc. Not a real high dollar one, something mid range.
Unless you are laying out big money, you can't get a metal sword that won't be a waste of your money. The lowest quality ones that are worth having are still very expensive.

You are much better off spending money on a really good bokuto. Forget the metal sword and invest a very good quality bokuto that will stand up to training. If you have display issues, you can display the wooden bokuto and jo on a sword stand. That will impress most people as much as a metal sword.

クリス の 合気ブログ Kyoto Kenshusei
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Old 05-21-2013, 12:22 PM   #48
Phil Van Treese
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Re: Bokken, Jo, Sword?

Funny how we all talk about Bo, Jo and Sword but there is never a mention of the Tanto, and for sure the double tanto. While the B,J,and S are important, the Tanto is more practical for me so I am teaching my students double tanto, including defense against the B, J, and S. Interesting how they like it.
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Old 05-21-2013, 01:05 PM   #49
Conrad Gus
 
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Re: Bokken, Jo, Sword?

Quote:
Christian Mikkelson wrote: View Post
Unless you are laying out big money, you can't get a metal sword that won't be a waste of your money. The lowest quality ones that are worth having are still very expensive.

You are much better off spending money on a really good bokuto. Forget the metal sword and invest a very good quality bokuto that will stand up to training. If you have display issues, you can display the wooden bokuto and jo on a sword stand. That will impress most people as much as a metal sword.
I'm not sure what would qualify as a "really good bokuto". I've only ever bought white oak ones which work great and stand up to lots of use. Spending a whole bunch of money on some rare wood version seems like a waste to me in terms of utility. If you want something nice to look at though, I'm sure there are a million great options.

I'd love to see pictures and hear descriptions of people's really good bokutos. Maybe I've been missing out?
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Old 05-21-2013, 02:05 PM   #50
Cliff Judge
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Re: Bokken, Jo, Sword?

Quote:
Conrad Gustafson wrote: View Post
ISpending a whole bunch of money on some rare wood version seems like a waste to me in terms of utility.
What utility is wasted with an expensive rare wood bokken? it sounds like you are saying it is like, sooooo much more useful than it needs to be, and there are starving kids in Livonia, etc.
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