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Old 10-28-2008, 04:30 AM   #1
feck
Join Date: Apr 2005
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Advice on Knee Support

Hi people,

havent posted in a while. Probably since i ripped my cruciate ligament during practice.

Anyway I started again on sunday, at the same dojo on a 10 week beginners course, going to keep it at a bare minimum for awhile, just once a week.

Although my knee is healed fairly well after about 2 years or so, seiza is crippling me, as well as the constant picking myself off of the floor.
Maybe most of its just gettting back into the swing of things, but I would like some advice on a knee guard, support guard type of deal.

What should i be actually looking for?, or even links to appropriate products. Ideally anyone with a similiar injury, who uses these knee supports, what have you found to be the best products?

Thanks

feck

"Men occasionally stumble across the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."
Winston Churchill
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Old 10-28-2008, 07:35 AM   #2
mickeygelum
 
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Re: Advice on Knee Support

Hello Mr. Paul,

Hope these help...Personally, I use a Mueller Hg80.

http://www.braceshop.com/

http://www.kneeshop.com/

Train well,

Mickey
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Old 10-28-2008, 07:47 AM   #3
feck
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Re: Advice on Knee Support

Thanks for responding mickey,

Does this restrict you in anyway in seiza, ie: make it more uncomfortable?

"Men occasionally stumble across the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."
Winston Churchill
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Old 10-28-2008, 08:48 AM   #4
Keith Larman
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Re: Advice on Knee Support

As a guy who has suffered through a couple injuries... Yeah, I can sympathize. People often ask me if the falls are what hurts. No, it's the getting up over and over again.

So my free advice -- all worth what you paid. Braces can help, but they're more about preventing more damage. If the problem is your knees getting sore when getting up you may really need to strengthen the legs. After my injuries I've had problems keeping my legs strong enough. That translated into lots of problems later with fatigue, soreness, etc. But it was really more about having lost strength due to the layoff and the injury. Not to mention all those things you do to "favor" or protect the injured area. So ideally spend some time with a sports phsyical therapist and get some exercises appropriate for both what you need and that won't cause more problems with the tender joints.

Another point is that if you are carrying extra weight... Well, the next sentence should be obvious. Dropping weight makes it easier to stand up. Something I need to work on some more...

Just fwiw.

And I used a very high end custom made Thompson Derotational brace for one knee for a long time. It was great -- carbon fiber, super strong hinges, it felt great. The problem was that sometimes I'd clip someone... Oops, sorry about that. But you can get over-reliant on the braces when the real problem is more about the rehab of the knee itself and the muscles around it.

Anyway, get thee to a good therapist or else listen to the one you have. It takes time to get flexibility back but it sounds more like you need to regain strength than so much need more support. Doing both would probably be a good idea, however...

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Old 10-28-2008, 09:18 AM   #5
Janet Rosen
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Re: Advice on Knee Support

You might want to check with your orthopedist, physical therapist, and a good local athletic trainer, and see if perhaps their advice is don't sit in seiza.
I've made it a point to avoid seiza and have adapted how I fall and how I get up since my knee surgeries.
I agree w/ Keith's warning about the use and limitations of braces.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 10-30-2008, 12:19 AM   #6
Abasan
Dojo: Aiki Shoshinkan, Aiki Kenkyukai
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Re: Advice on Knee Support

Hi, I used to wear knee supports. Problem didn't originate there though, more from flat feet. This will affect back and knee.

I know its not similar to your more localised injury.

Just wanted to support the post above. I dropped 20kgs and I don't wear the supports anymore. Also, forget seiza. It'll just screw your knees up in the long run.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 02-14-2013, 05:42 PM   #7
barron
Dojo: Calgary Aikikai
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Advice on Knee Support ( Fusion XT OA Knee Brace)

Starting Aikido at 49, and practicing for the past 13 years, I have been lucky enough to have suffered only two or three minor injuries. My first incident came after my first month when I did a roll into the dojo wall and sprained my big toe to discover how important the big toe was for walking and balance! My other injuries were a sore shoulder from a new student who thought ikkyo was a break verses a persuasion. My previous being a rather aggressive senior student who hyper extended my arm beyond where it wanted to go, and where he decided to take it.

Now am faced with simple wear a tear on my right knee probably caused by my half century of endurance sports. Osteoarthritis is not a nice repercussion of doing what one loves, and really gets in the way my aikido. (sawari waza and hamihandachi are definitely a thing of the past).

With age has taking the next step, I am hobbling and experience pain simply walking. I've had cortisone, acupuncture, leech treatment (yes that's right little blood suckers) and doctors telling me I'm getting old.

I managed, with a large dose of fear and adrenaline, to get through my last test but now need to deal with this if I want to keep playing/practicing.

I meet with my doctor soon to discuss possibilities and am looking for advice from the aikido world on the specialized knee braces ( Fusion XT OA Knee Brace) build to take the pressure off the knee. If any one has any experience, advice or suggestions I would appreciate it as I'd like to play for another 15 to 20 years.

Thanks

Andrew Barron
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Old 02-14-2013, 06:44 PM   #8
Dan Richards
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Re: Advice on Knee Support

I agree with the camp here that's saying forget the brace and forget seiza. I'd even add, that if getting up and down off the floor is causing you pain, then forget doing that - at least for the time being.

There's absolutely no reason why you can't have a good and satisfying training session without ever going down to the mat even once.

Last edited by Dan Richards : 02-14-2013 at 06:46 PM.

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Old 02-14-2013, 07:49 PM   #9
Janet Rosen
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Re: Advice on Knee Support

First thing we all need to understand is how no two of us are alike. I have awful osteo in the knee that was blown out over a dozen years ago, but can get up and down off the mat pretty well within the context of a couple of classes a week - its standing and pivoting that kill me, so weapons work can be hard....
I was one of the original voices for "don't do seiza" and realizing the limitations of braces. Having said that, there ARE now specific high tech braces made specifically for folks who have trouble with simple weightbearing (standing, walking) - like Andrew I'd be interested in hearing any specific feedback on these.
Myself, if it came down to being on the verge of stopping training or not being able to take walks or garden the way I'd like, the next step I'd look into (assuming my insurance covered it) would be one of the hyaline or viscous types of injections and after that joint replacement.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 02-15-2013, 03:51 AM   #10
Aikeway
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Re: Advice on Knee Support

I have found cycling to be excellent for knee problems. I use long bandages for both my knees with "Bike" knee supports over the bandages for serious training. However, sitting in seiza is impossible with this set-up as knee mobility is greatly reduced.
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Old 02-15-2013, 09:44 AM   #11
Brian Beach
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Re: Advice on Knee Support

I had an ACL replacement and I'm in the strengthening group. I use a kettlebell, swimming and also pistol squats. The pistols can be done at various heights. http://youtu.be/GLY1z4Znzuo
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Old 02-15-2013, 11:40 AM   #12
barron
Dojo: Calgary Aikikai
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Re: Advice on Knee Support

Thanks for the replies.

I'm dealing with a purely mechanical problem. Bone on bone with limited padding between. I do cycle without pain which is good (mountain and road) but bipedal movement is getting increasingly difficult and hiking season only a few month away ( I hope only three !) Unfortunately the strengthening does not help the bone on bone contact.

I can cheat when I teach and do all pins standing. I also only demo on my good side if I have any nagare or tenkans involved.

I have modified my practice greatly and was hoping to hear from people who have osteoarthritis and have use an OA brace.

Cheers

Andrew Barron
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Old 02-15-2013, 12:14 PM   #13
Janet Rosen
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Re: Advice on Knee Support

Quote:
Andrew Barron wrote: View Post
Thanks for the replies.

I'm dealing with a purely mechanical problem. Bone on bone with limited padding between. I do cycle without pain which is good (mountain and road) but bipedal movement is getting increasingly difficult and hiking season only a few month away ( I hope only three !) Unfortunately the strengthening does not help the bone on bone contact.

I can cheat when I teach and do all pins standing. I also only demo on my good side if I have any nagare or tenkans involved.

I have modified my practice greatly and was hoping to hear from people who have osteoarthritis and have use an OA brace.

Cheers
Andrew, I am equally curious. I wonder if it would be worth your while taking the post I'm quoting here and spinning it off as a brand new thread topic rather than an old one - some folks may be opening the link, seeing at the OP it's a resurrected thread and clicking away.

Janet Rosen
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Old 02-20-2013, 02:32 PM   #14
dreamborn
 
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Re: Advice on Knee Support

Darren

I also had some knee issues recently. What helped me was to get compression sleeves for my knee. The reason I like them is that they offer some support without being restrictive. Yes I can sit in seiza easily with them. I got mine in Japan but I think you can get them at most sporting goods stores or on-line. Hope you find something that helps.

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Old 08-22-2015, 11:50 PM   #15
Petrus
Dojo: Enso Dojo in Perth,Australia
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Re: Advice on Knee Support

Look up Zhang Zhuang.
An ancient Qi Gong practice which is great for whole body and for centering. Gradually increase time to 30min minimum
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Old 08-23-2015, 06:48 AM   #16
rugwithlegs
Dojo: Open Sky Aikikai
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Re: Advice on Knee Support

I have to second Janet's recommendation for a new thread.

Zhang zhuang (power standing/standing meditation) is a good idea, but my teacher recommended starting at 10 minutes. If you are already missing much of your meniscus, this can accelerate the damage being done, and it can also be a problem if you are having circulation problems (less than seiza though). I benefited greatly from a teacher and regular feedback.

While I was shown meditating mostly in seiza, it is documented that O Sensei did misogi in a waterfall in Iwama and other practices that could be called standing meditation. I was shown standing by my teacher, and we did a standing bow with Jo practice.

For the adaptations: when I was testing up through the ranks, I had to learn a wide variety of pinning movements including standing pins. I was almost to Shodan before I met someone from another lineage who told me that only seiza and up on the toes was correct and that this was most "traditional" Ned anything else was wrong. My teacher was a pretty traditional guy, so I didn't take kindly to the implication but I didn't have any proof who was wrong.

Do what the examiner wants, or teach to the test, but Daito Ryu has many interesting pins with Nage standing or going to one knee, Yoshinkan makes use of a one knee up pin where I was told to do kneeling and doesn't shy away from standing pins for Kotegaeshi, Shodokan/Tomiki has a some interesting standing pins in their Koryu no Kata. I watched a video the other day of Ikeda Sensei doing suwari Waza and ai have a book of Saotome's showing one knee up variations. There is video particularly Rendezvous with Adventure where O Sensei is doing some standing pins I have not seen elsewhere, and some one knee up pins in Budo. In other words, O Sensei was not confined to one kneeling pin, the primary art he studied did not, and neither do the major prewar systems that he taught, nor do some of the more modern lineages. Not only are these great references for people wanting to work on pins but cannot kneel comfortably, but I recommend it for people who really want to explore the history and full utility of our ground/control game. Besides, it's healthier for everyone. I have decided I will not tell any student going forward that this is cheating, it's historically and bio mechanically valid even if it is something the examiner might not be looking for during a test.

OTOH Mr Barron, you mention only doing a demo on the good side when there is a tenkan or a flowing movement involved, and exclusively doing standing pins. You make it sound like there is significant joint damage? I assume you cannot fall either? Are you only teaching or are you able to train? Have you been evaluated by a physical therapist or physician? I was once told I had arthritis, I eventually demanded a referral to a rheumatologist who then did the MRI - and with the referral, found a torn meniscus had left a loose floating body in my knee joint. I would have less pain and joint damage today if I had been diagnosed correctly early on.
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Old 08-23-2015, 12:14 PM   #17
Janet Rosen
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Re: Advice on Knee Support

Quote:
John Hillson wrote: View Post
OTOH Mr Barron, you mention only doing a demo on the good side when there is a tenkan or a flowing movement involved, and exclusively doing standing pins. You make it sound like there is significant joint damage? I assume you cannot fall either? Are you only teaching or are you able to train? Have you been evaluated by a physical therapist or physician? I was once told I had arthritis, I eventually demanded a referral to a rheumatologist who then did the MRI - and with the referral, found a torn meniscus had left a loose floating body in my knee joint. I would have less pain and joint damage today if I had been diagnosed correctly early on.
(sigh) folks, this is an OLD thread, already resurrected once by the OP, and I recommend reading it thoroughly. He DID address this (yes he knows exactly what his problem is and yes he is asking specifically about the type of custom brace for osteo).
Also to the person talking about sleeve type OTC products: the one and only thing they offer is COMPRESSION, along with related warmth. They have no effect on bone-on-bone issues within the leg, no effect on actual joint stability or structure.

Janet Rosen
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"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 08-23-2015, 08:11 PM   #18
rugwithlegs
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Re: Advice on Knee Support

Sorry Janet
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Old 08-24-2015, 08:18 PM   #19
lbb
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Re: Advice on Knee Support

Quote:
Darren Paul wrote: View Post
Hi people,
Hi,

I know this is completely irrelevant to the subject of this thread, but did you actually choose "feck" as your username?
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