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Old 12-24-2012, 06:44 PM   #51
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Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
Um... why would we want to do that?
Mostly because Ueshiba continued to quote taiji classics his entire life. How were they expressed in his art. Oddly he liked to talk about it...a lot!!
He also quoted ancient Japanese texts that...well... often quotes Chinese terms.
Why is it pertinent? Well, obviously neither of you know. So....here we are back to football as aiki.
Dan
 
Old 12-24-2012, 06:44 PM   #52
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Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
I'm out of town, and I only have Budo Renshu with me, but here are a few quick quotes I found from Ueshiba, describing his art.

"Thinking I am in front of him, the enemy raises his sword to attack, but lo I am already standing behind him"

"Drawing out the attack of the perverse enemy, my body stands behind him and cuts."

I also have "Aikido" by Kisshomaru Ueshiba with me. In that there is a story-

" A young naval officer and kendo teacher came to his [Ueshiba's] Dojo. The jujutsu man [Ueshiba] tried to explain the theory of his "Aiki" to the Kendo man but it seems that the visitor had come for a fight. In the end, Ueshiba consented to having a match. The officer dashed forward to attack with his wooden training sword but each time Ueshiba was able to dodge the weapon with ease. Finally the challenger sat down without once touching him."

So here we have two poems where Ueshiba himself describes his art, and how using it means convincing your attacker you are in one place, when in fact you are behind him.

Then we also have a story, recounted by the founders son, where he describes Ueshiba, when pressed to show "Aiki" simply dodges all of the swords mans attacks until the swordman is to tired to continue.

Sounds like what you were asking for, no?
Not really, no, but a couple of points:

1) The top two quotes have everything to do with Aiki in the body and intent, and nothing to do with evasion. This becomes evident when you work with the body of Ueshiba's speech as he defines his method (which I won't go into here, but have touched on in my blogs), and look at it in the context of arts such as Daito-ryu and traditional sword, which the quotes are describing.
2) The story is by Kisshomaru describing the appearance of what happened, and even that is a second hand account - Kisshomaru was four at the time. Mistaking the effect for the cause is one giant reason why things go astray.

Trying to reason these things from the outside in is very difficult - most of the standard assumptions end up wrong.

That being said, "convincing your attacker you are in one place, when in fact you are behind him" is not exactly wrong, so much as it is misleading - enough so that I don't think that it's very useful, except as a description on an extremely crude level, such as pulling a chair out from under somebody so that the fall on the floor. The kind of thing that Dan (and Morihei) is talking about is way beyond that.

Anyway, I'm going to step out here, again.

Best,

Chris

 
Old 12-24-2012, 06:46 PM   #53
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Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

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David
Are you saying that aiki is only getting out of the way? Or is only blending and timing? Does IP/IS play no part in all of this in your world?
Gary
I still haven't gotten over the flip side of that idea. All those warriors and civilian guys with so much experience...come to find out, were defeated and impressed by...getting out of the way?

Of course that's not true, and it replaces thousands of years of body technology for something that...well...any ol athlete would know. Hence certain people thinking they go it...in a year and pro athletes have internal power and now aiki.

The planned approach is simple, since most people don't know and can't do his stuff, redefine his model down to something everyone can do.
Dan
 
Old 12-24-2012, 06:53 PM   #54
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Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

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For whatever its worth, I think that throughout his life, the founder used aiki to describe different aspects of his practice. Given the quote in this thread that included "move your body slightly to avoid his attack, and let him go wherever he wants"
David
Accepting that that might be the case........in your view where does IP/IS fit in the aiki paradigm or does it?

Gary
 
Old 12-24-2012, 08:03 PM   #55
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Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

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I agree talking about "true Ueshiba Aikido" is...problematic. And I think we'd all have an easier time if we avoided that issue more. The OP couched the video in terms of his understanding of aiki, which may or may not be right (in terms of "pure" Ueshiba aiki), but I thought the point was less about what aiki is than what he saw as good movement when being pursued by multiple people; I can see how he might have just been referencing the fact that his idea of aiki is different from what is very often mentioned on AikiWeb these days (a version I personally put a lot of stock in...as far as I can understand it, at any rate). I see that as an honest way of framing the basic premise made here that this video is a good example of aiki (aikido-like behavior).
That all said:
A similarity I see between that idea (exemplified by high level athleticism) and the old Asahi film is that O Sensei never stays in the middle of all those people; at some point he moves away from them, finding a safer space to reorganize. If aikido (not necessarily aiki itself) was "always" about engagement I would think he would stay in the thick of it rather than moving away from it. As I currently interpret things, aiki is about how one engages themselves (i.e. a meta-operating system) which then affects how interactions will manifest. Using the intent of the attacker against him is good aikido, even if perhaps it's not sufficient to be called pure internal aiki. So rather than getting caught up in the language, which I would agree is an important topic on its own, I'd just rather see more engaging of the valid points being made that are salient to the common training experience.
No one in the IP/IS group ever said that moving out of the way was not a valid martial movement; it can be done with or without aiki, and in of itself, it really is not aiki; just part of an external jujutsu movement. As said, If that is how one looks at it and likes to keep their Aikido in that frame of perspective, that is fine. What we are saying is that there is much more out there, and for those looking for more, here is something to look into - simple as that.

Greg
 
Old 12-25-2012, 03:30 AM   #56
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Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
"Thinking I am in front of him, the enemy raises his sword to attack, but lo I am already standing behind him"
"Drawing out the attack of the perverse enemy, my body stands behind him and cuts."
I learn from two different shihan that this is not about evading, but going through the attacker. Which means using the body in different way.
Looking at the result is interesting: After evading the attacker has all possibilities to further attack. After going through him you stand behind him and cut. finito
So what the football video shows is a counterexample to what they want us to do.
 
Old 12-25-2012, 03:39 AM   #57
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Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

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David
Accepting that that might be the case........in your view where does IP/IS fit in the aiki paradigm or does it?

Gary
I don't really know how to answer since I haven't seen a definition of IP/IS. I also think that the founder used "Aiki" in wide variety of meanings (e.g. Aiki Budo - a prewar name of his art, Aiki as moving out of the way, Aiki as being solid, etc...) and an attempt to fit that "Aiki" into an "aiki paradigm" seems to me an unnatural one.

One can ask "How important was the 'Tenryu ability' to the founder and in the way he saw his art" - my guess is that not very, but I am nowhere near even trying to prove this.

 
Old 12-25-2012, 10:58 AM   #58
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Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

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I don't really know how to answer since I haven't seen a definition of IP/IS. I also think that the founder used "Aiki" in wide variety of meanings (e.g. Aiki Budo - a prewar name of his art, Aiki as moving out of the way, Aiki as being solid, etc...) and an attempt to fit that "Aiki" into an "aiki paradigm" seems to me an unnatural one.

One can ask "How important was the 'Tenryu ability' to the founder and in the way he saw his art" - my guess is that not very, but I am nowhere near even trying to prove this.
David
I started in the '70s with Tohei Sensei coming to our dojo several times a year just to teach a Wednesday night class for the regulars.....one point, relax completely, weight underside, & extend ki were all part of the normal conversation........ The problem was the depth of the detail available to go along with these terms......there wasn't much, not enough to get a real handle on. The same was true of the aiki taiso.......not much detail. We did all of the ki testing.... Got good enough at it to understand how to bypass them and how to kept anyone from really testing at that level. When I asked folks How do you teach, how do train folks to establish one point, relax completely and the others in the face of attacking intend, moving and under stress? ......there was no answer.

After spending a whole lot of years in my waza phase I went back to asking. I started checking folks out, started paying more attention to a few friends who had some answers and looking outside...... I found Dan. Combining Dan's approach with my friend John's stuff I can see value in what I was shown in the 70's.....the keys to useful learning and application. All we got then was hints, now I can see connections.......

Gary
 
Old 12-25-2012, 11:24 AM   #59
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Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

That is very good but how is this related to the post you quoted?

 
Old 12-25-2012, 11:41 AM   #60
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Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

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No one in the IP/IS group ever said that moving out of the way was not a valid martial movement; it can be done with or without aiki, and in of itself, it really is not aiki; just part of an external jujutsu movement. As said, If that is how one looks at it and likes to keep their Aikido in that frame of perspective, that is fine. What we are saying is that there is much more out there, and for those looking for more, here is something to look into - simple as that.

Greg
Well, that sounds reasonable enough.

But as moving out of the way (I thought the English word for it was evasion) is a valid martial movement that can be done with aiki - what is the objection to talk about it in this thread?

There are a lot of evasive movements that are practiced in Aikido dojo all over the world, what is the objection to comparing these?

What is the objection to look at similar movements in other arts?

What is the objection against looking at examples from for instance predators and prey in nature?

How about looking at choreographed fights in movies - any objections to examples from that?

Tom
 
Old 12-25-2012, 12:04 PM   #61
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Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

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Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
Well, that sounds reasonable enough.

But as moving out of the way (I thought the English word for it was evasion) is a valid martial movement that can be done with aiki - what is the objection to talk about it in this thread?

There are a lot of evasive movements that are practiced in Aikido dojo all over the world, what is the objection to comparing these?

What is the objection to look at similar movements in other arts?

What is the objection against looking at examples from for instance predators and prey in nature?

How about looking at choreographed fights in movies - any objections to examples from that?

Tom
Absolutely no objection as long as they are called what they really are; which is external jujutsu movements and not being implied that they are part of the high level internal aiki that Ueshiba was renowned for.

Greg
 
Old 12-25-2012, 12:21 PM   #62
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Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

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That is very good but how is this related to the post you quoted?
David
Nothing really.......just keeping the connection.

My thought here is just that the individual drills that I have gotten from Dan, as well as from John, have given me insights and ways to look at the stuff I was shown 30 years ago......allows me to utilize what was hinted at then..... Consider that we were only given hints........

Gary
 
Old 12-25-2012, 12:33 PM   #63
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Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

Also, after forty years of Aikido training, revisiting the past with new insights is understandable.

 
Old 12-25-2012, 01:13 PM   #64
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David
There are 'outliers' out there that we can utilize rather than argue over terms or usage...... For me learning what I can and getting it right on my own terms is what is important to me. With Dan, John & others, this is my path.......good journey with yours.......

Gary
 
Old 12-25-2012, 01:56 PM   #65
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Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

Gary, I agree with you completely. That training with a particular teacher improves your Aikido is verifiable and is a good reason to go back for more. That in itself, has nothing to do with historical authenticity.

 
Old 12-25-2012, 02:26 PM   #66
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Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

Hey, don't you guys take Christmas off.....?????

Zazen emptiness
Sitting under the moon
Mosquitoes whine in glee
 
Old 12-25-2012, 02:46 PM   #67
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Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

No rest for the wicked.

 
Old 12-25-2012, 02:48 PM   #68
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Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

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No rest for the wicked.
Guess Santa passed you by then..............

Zazen emptiness
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Mosquitoes whine in glee
 
Old 12-25-2012, 02:50 PM   #69
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Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

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Absolutely no objection as long as they are called what they really are; which is external jujutsu movements and not being implied that they are part of the high level internal aiki that Ueshiba was renowned for.

Greg
You are contradicting yourself here.

This is what you said; "No one in the IP/IS group ever said that moving out of the way was not a valid martial movement; it can be done with or without aiki".

If you seriously mean this, then what could possibly be a valid objection of the IP/IS group against talking about this subject (aiki evasions)?

What you first called a "valid martial movement that can be done with or without Aiki", you now call external jujutsu movements?

And from this new definition you conclude that the IP/IS group does have objections if on a thread on Aiki web people discuss evations as part of their Aikido curriculum?

It seems to me that it is rather presumptious to deny people the right to talk about a subject that is part of Aikido as it is practiced all over the world.

And yes, evasion is part of the path of Aiki as set out by the founder.

It may not be part of how you or the IP/IS group would like to define Aiki, it is very well possible that you/they have come to a different conclusion.

But it should not interfere with the possibility for others to discuss the variations of evasion in Aikido or to compare these with other arts.

Tom
 
Old 12-25-2012, 04:18 PM   #70
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Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

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You are contradicting yourself here.
No contradiction at all if you understand what we are saying about aiki - as been mentioned elsewhere by others, simply evading an attack was not what Ueshiba was renowned for and was not what gave him his power; anyone can do that. However, there are those that imply aiki is as simple at that; this approach and viewpoint is what is objectionable. As I said before, IMO evasion is not aiki, has nothing to do with aiki, and is nothing really special that can be found in all martial arts and other athletic activities. If others choose to not look at it that way and are not interested in other viewpoints of aiki, that is fine, but if they present evasion as the one and only aiki, then we will feel obligated to disagree (with detail supporting our position) and let others know that there is another viewpoint for their consideration.

Quote:
Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
This is what you said; "No one in the IP/IS group ever said that moving out of the way was not a valid martial movement; it can be done with or without aiki".

If you seriously mean this, then what could possibly be a valid objection of the IP/IS group against talking about this subject (aiki evasions)?
What is 'aiki evasion'? - i thought we were talking about Evasion being Aiki.

Quote:
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What you first called a "valid martial movement that can be done with or without Aiki", you now call external jujutsu movements?
External jujutsu movements are valid martial movements and they can be done with the power of aiki or without; the movement is not the source of aiki.

Quote:
Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
And from this new definition you conclude that the IP/IS group does have objections if on a thread on Aiki web people discuss evations as part of their Aikido curriculum?
Not true, no objection to discussing - evasion and other external movements can be, and should be, part of an Aikido curriculum, but they are just waza.

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It may not be part of how you or the IP/IS group would like to define Aiki, it is very well possible that you/they have come to a different conclusion.
Absolutely agree with that statement - and that is why we are having a difficult time expressing points because each side hears the term Aiki and applies their own meaning to it; which does not provide for common ground

Quote:
Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
But it should not interfere with the possibility for others to discuss the variations of evasion in Aikido or to compare these with other arts.
Never said they could not - a good example of the no common ground for discussion point mentioned previously.

Greg
 
Old 12-25-2012, 08:04 PM   #71
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Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

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No contradiction at all if you understand what we are saying about aiki - as been mentioned elsewhere by others, simply evading an attack was not what Ueshiba was renowned for and was not what gave him his power; anyone can do that. However, there are those that imply aiki is as simple at that; this approach and viewpoint is what is objectionable. As I said before, IMO evasion is not aiki, has nothing to do with aiki, and is nothing really special that can be found in all martial arts and other athletic activities. If others choose to not look at it that way and are not interested in other viewpoints of aiki, that is fine, but if they present evasion as the one and only aiki, then we will feel obligated to disagree (with detail supporting our position) and let others know that there is another viewpoint for their consideration.

What is 'aiki evasion'? - i thought we were talking about Evasion being Aiki.

External jujutsu movements are valid martial movements and they can be done with the power of aiki or without; the movement is not the source of aiki.

Not true, no objection to discussing - evasion and other external movements can be, and should be, part of an Aikido curriculum, but they are just waza.

Absolutely agree with that statement - and that is why we are having a difficult time expressing points because each side hears the term Aiki and applies their own meaning to it; which does not provide for common ground

Never said they could not - a good example of the no common ground for discussion point mentioned previously.

Greg
This is what the OP stated;
"When I use the word "Aiki" I am describing an ability to understand your attackers mind, physically blend with their physical movement, and letting your attackers spell their own demise"
He does not use the word "evasion" or "moving out of the way.
And neither did I in my first comment. The word "evasion" or as you put it "moving out of the way was introduced by proponents of IP/IS.
And after it was introduced, it was the IP/IS group who started to counterargument it.
That answers this point;
"What is 'aiki evasion'? - i thought we were talking about Evasion being Aiki".

The argument was never that evasion is the same as Aiki.

If I would use an evasive move then it could be called for lack of a better word an Aiki evasion (in my previous post I in fact only used the term to make sure we were talking about the same subject).
I disagree that anyone can do this. Learning to evade and to apply a technique takes a long time to learn properly.

As for waza - for the inexperienced waza is mostly form, for the experienced all waza contain / are based on Aiki.

As for differences in interpretation of the term Aiki, some may have a limited understanding of Aiki or mean something very specific with it or seeking only to apply it to a specific goal. Personally I have experienced Aiki over the decades in a much more broader perspective, which have made me look in a different way at other arts, nature-religions like Shinto and nature itself.
If each person tries to come with a clear description of what Aiki to him is, and if each person keeps an open mind then I think it must be possible to discuss it and to inspire each other.

It would therefore be interesting to see more examples of what people view as important or inspiring to them, then just the example that the OP gave.

Tom
 
Old 12-25-2012, 08:33 PM   #72
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Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

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Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
This is what the OP stated;
"When I use the word "Aiki" I am describing an ability to understand your attackers mind, physically blend with their physical movement, and letting your attackers spell their own demise"
He does not use the word "evasion" or "moving out of the way.
And neither did I in my first comment. The word "evasion" or as you put it "moving out of the way was introduced by proponents of IP/IS.
And after it was introduced, it was the IP/IS group who started to counterargument it.
That answers this point;
"What is 'aiki evasion'? - i thought we were talking about Evasion being Aiki".

The argument was never that evasion is the same as Aiki.

If I would use an evasive move then it could be called for lack of a better word an Aiki evasion (in my previous post I in fact only used the term to make sure we were talking about the same subject).
I disagree that anyone can do this. Learning to evade and to apply a technique takes a long time to learn properly.

As for waza - for the inexperienced waza is mostly form, for the experienced all waza contain / are based on Aiki.

As for differences in interpretation of the term Aiki, some may have a limited understanding of Aiki or mean something very specific with it or seeking only to apply it to a specific goal. Personally I have experienced Aiki over the decades in a much more broader perspective, which have made me look in a different way at other arts, nature-religions like Shinto and nature itself.
If each person tries to come with a clear description of what Aiki to him is, and if each person keeps an open mind then I think it must be possible to discuss it and to inspire each other.

It would therefore be interesting to see more examples of what people view as important or inspiring to them, then just the example that the OP gave.

Tom
Tom, the OP used a video of athletes evading other athletes and implied it was high level aiki in his opinion; that is what led to the posts about aiki in this thread.

As mentioned, you and I have very different views on what aiki is and we have no common ground on this subject - it is also appears English is not your first language and a lot of your interpretations of what is being posted here do not comes across as related to the context of what was posted - therefore, I see further discussion on this subject with you useless - have a happy holiday season.

Greg
 
Old 12-26-2012, 05:35 AM   #73
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Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

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Absolutely no objection as long as they are called what they really are; which is external jujutsu movements and not being implied that they are part of the high level internal aiki that Ueshiba was renowned for.
some more "external jujutsu movements":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNDa6gvOoR4#t=01h11m23s (about 1:11:23 time mark)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNDa6gvOoR4#t=01h12m14s (about 1:12:14 time mark)

 
Old 12-26-2012, 06:15 AM   #74
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Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

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This is what the OP stated;
"When I use the word "Aiki" I am describing an ability to understand your attackers mind, physically blend with their physical movement, and letting your attackers spell their own demise"
He does not use the word "evasion" or "moving out of the way.
And neither did I in my first comment. The word "evasion" or as you put it "moving out of the way was introduced by proponents of IP/IS.
OP video link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rroRNqBaF4w

My video link of Ueshiba:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98yRuBkUBGQ

Let's start with OPV (OP Video) at the 0:08-0:10 second mark. Evading. Pure and simple. Receiver is actively and purposefully trying not to get grabbed, trying to break free, and trying to misdirect the "attackers" so that they lunge to grab in a place where the receiver isn't.

Look at UV (Ueshiba video) at the 3:10-3:35 mark. Ueshiba enters, Ueshiba wants the attacker to grab him, Ueshiba doesn't evade. The attackers go in various directions because Ueshiba completely controls them through physical contact. Ueshiba does not use misdirection at all.

Now, look at 6:03-6:24. Do you see Ueshiba trying to misdirect his attackers so that they fall into each other? Instead, Ueshiba tosses them left and right through power and control.

I think you should have a conversation with Chis Hein over what he meant by the posted video. Look at what Mary posted:
Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Thank Chris...I especially loved when he pulled up and they ran into each other.
and Chris replied
Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Yeah, I was pretty impressed by that myself!! What a great idea, using their force against them, all the ball carrier had to do was to understand what the attackers wanted to do, and he used their minds against them, effortlessly! This is the kind of thing that makes Aiki, and Aikido so interesting to me!!
So, deceiving someone and evading their attack is "aiki". The receiver used timing to step out of the way from being grabbed and let the two "attackers" run into each other. He deceived them by not being where they expected him to be and evaded their attack. Go back to the Ueshiba video and point out where Ueshiba actually does anything like this.

Quote:
Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
As for differences in interpretation of the term Aiki, some may have a limited understanding of Aiki or mean something very specific with it or seeking only to apply it to a specific goal. Personally I have experienced Aiki over the decades in a much more broader perspective, which have made me look in a different way at other arts, nature-religions like Shinto and nature itself.
If each person tries to come with a clear description of what Aiki to him is, and if each person keeps an open mind then I think it must be possible to discuss it and to inspire each other.

It would therefore be interesting to see more examples of what people view as important or inspiring to them, then just the example that the OP gave.

Tom
About the only two valid arguments in relation to this thread subject would be:

1. Ueshiba in 1935 was still doing Daito ryu and it wasn't aikido.
or
2. Kisshomaru changed the definition of "aiki" and that is what is being discussed.

Now, neither of those will stand up to close scrutiny, but at least they would be valid counter arguments. Otherwise, Morihei Ueshiba had very specific, defined definitions for aiki. It wasn't in a broader perspective.
 
Old 12-26-2012, 06:20 AM   #75
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Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
some more "external jujutsu movements":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNDa6gvOoR4#t=01h11m23s (about 1:11:23 time mark)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNDa6gvOoR4#t=01h12m14s (about 1:12:14 time mark)
Great googly moogly. You're trying to equate not being stabbed/cut from a weapon with "evading" in football? Really?

Or is this just another example of "cherry picking". You seem to be in a habit of doing that in this thread and then denying it and saying it isn't important to your usage of cherry picking.

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
I think that me agreeing or disagreeing is not important. The important thing is that your work has integrity. More to the point, will you revisit your take on what is and isn't aiki in the light the quote?

Here it is again

The source is Aikido Journal, article is titled "Interview with Morihei Ueshiba published in Shukan Yomiuri in 1956". I believe that you need to be a member to view it on http://members.aikidojournal.com/pri...hei-ueshiba-2/
How about doing the research and actually coming up with valid points regarding Ueshiba's aiki as compared to Hein's "aiki". I say Hein's "aiki" because he has yet to explain where he came up with his definition. There are tons of information out there on Ueshiba's aiki and how Ueshiba defined it. The two do not match.
 

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