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-   -   Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22083)

ChrisHein 12-22-2012 04:11 PM

Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them
 
When I use the word "Aiki" I am describing an ability to understand your attackers mind, physically blend with their physical movement, and letting your attackers spell their own demise. When I saw this video clip, it was a great example of what I would describe as Aiki. Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rroRNqBaF4w

Talk about awareness and a calm mind in the face of real danger- awesome!

MM 12-22-2012 11:20 PM

Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them
 
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=98yRuBkUBGQ

This is my idea of aiki. Ueshiba doesn't evade, he uses power to affect the attacker. There is no evading a tackle here, no attacker spelling his own demise. Ueshiba has power, control, and removes the attackers ability to attack, effectively rendering the attacker powerless. Many of his students talked about his power and their inability to understand what he was doing. I don't understand how evading tackles equates to all that?

Mentally, Ueshiba said he was the Universe and who could overcome that? I don't remember him saying that he evaded his attackers until they created their own demise. Physically and mentally, I think Ueshiba's aiki was something different than a receiver evading tackles. But that's just me. YMMV.

ChrisHein 12-22-2012 11:47 PM

Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them
 
Yes there are all kinds of different ideas out there Mark. I was interested in talking about a different idea then you are describing in this thread though.

Chris Li 12-23-2012 12:29 AM

Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them
 
Quote:

Chris Hein wrote: (Post 320836)
Yes there are all kinds of different ideas out there Mark. I was interested in talking about a different idea then you are describing in this thread though.

Sure, nothing wrong with that - but isn't Mark asking how you justify calling it Aiki?

Best,

Chris

ChrisHein 12-23-2012 12:45 AM

Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them
 
Quote:

Christopher Li wrote: (Post 320837)
Sure, nothing wrong with that - but isn't Mark asking how you justify calling it Aiki?

Best,

Chris

Because I do.

Just like you choose to call whatever it is you call Aiki, Aiki. I'm not sure why I need to "justify" anything. That's not what this thread is about. If you would like to start a thread talking about "justifying" what you call Aiki, feel free.

Tom Verhoeven 12-23-2012 06:45 AM

Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them
 
Quote:

Chris Hein wrote: (Post 320832)
When I use the word "Aiki" I am describing an ability to understand your attackers mind, physically blend with their physical movement, and letting your attackers spell their own demise. When I saw this video clip, it was a great example of what I would describe as Aiki. Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rroRNqBaF4w

Talk about awareness and a calm mind in the face of real danger- awesome!

Very nice ! I do not know much about American football (what is a juke?) and hardly ever get to see it - but I liked this clip!

I think I would give "Aiki" a bit broader meaning, but it would include your definition. So for me too this it is an excellent example of Aiki!

Tom

Mary Eastland 12-23-2012 07:04 AM

Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them
 
Thank Chris...I especially loved when he pulled up and they ran into each other.

Cliff Judge 12-23-2012 07:12 AM

Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them
 
Have we had a conversation recently about how aiki and kiai are different things?

gregstec 12-23-2012 07:55 AM

Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them
 
Nice troll Chris, looks like you hooked a few :)

As Cliff said, did we all not have a similar conversation on this stuff just recently?

Greg

p.s. Nice clip by the way, good football and athleticism - absolutely nothing to do about Ueshiba's aiki though

Chris Li 12-23-2012 10:47 AM

Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them
 
Quote:

Chris Hein wrote: (Post 320838)
Because I do.

Just like you choose to call whatever it is you call Aiki, Aiki. I'm not sure why I need to "justify" anything. That's not what this thread is about. If you would like to start a thread talking about "justifying" what you call Aiki, feel free.

I tend to agree with Greg's opinion of what's going on here, so I'll step out after this post since you started pretty much the same thread previously for pretty much the same reasons.

Anyway Mark and others have laid out quite a bit of historical material in support of their positions, I guess that's what a search engine is for.

Best,

Chris

DH 12-23-2012 11:29 AM

Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them
 
I find it sad when terms are just up for grabs. Worse, when the terms-have a pedagogy and the concepts behind them a rich history spanning generations and cultures, and they are simply mangled by modern practitioners (east and west) who don't have any idea that they existed beyond their teachers uninformed instructions to them.

So...
1. Sensei what is Aiki?
Ueshiba draws a circle
"Aiki is opposing forces (in you)."
2. Sensei what is Aiki?
"The mysteries of aiki are revealed in dual opposing spirals....cut...in the midst a friction is created. This gives birth to yin and yang."
Others
O-sensei "Why can we not do what you do, Sensei?"
Ueshiba's reply, simple and final, "Because you don't understand in yo ho."
Ueshiba:
"In order to achieve the mysterious workings of ki based upon intent, first realize the appearance of the foundation that is the ki connection (ki musubi) between the left side of the physical body grounded in the martial and the right that receives the universe. If you can achieve this connection between the left and the right then you will be able to move with complete freedom."
(this ties in with more of the taiji classics)
"Manifest yo (yang) in the right hand, change the left hand to in (yin) and guide the opponent."
(though Ueshiba said it and wrote it, this is direct quote from the Tora no maki)
"The way of the mountain echo is intent, standing in the center of the connection between the ki of heaven and the ki of the earth."
(this is ancient example:
1451: "When I left Katori Shrine after two years of esoteric training and learning heaven earth man and six direction theory...my Ken was unstoppable.")

2012:
"Aiki is evading"
"Aiki is crap"

Two opinions offered; one by an aikido-ka, the other by a judo-ka
Both, according to the internet, are equal to the legends....
I think both are simply, wrong. I'm going with the legends!!:cool:

These things are deep and they are seriously difficult, and they deserved to be legendary skills.
I remain convinced that generations of men who struggled and devoted their life's work to learn these higher level, deeper things were not impressed by .....getting out of the way. Interestingly enough we find many others....who were. There are after all "experts" in the martial arts, the world over who really should never be out there teaching these things, or using terms they have no ability to place and define, much less display. I meet them all over. Why are THEY successful? They are demonstrating their stuff and talking their talk, in rooms full of people who have no connection and really don't know any better anyway.
Simple question, put to shihans reveal they really had no idea;
What they are
Where they came from
What they mean to convey
Nor can they themselves demonstrate any unusual power different from your average aikido-ka.
Should we change the meaning of "expert" while we're at changing the meaning of aiki.

It is getting "fixed" a bit at a time, as people meet men who actually do know what they are talking about and display the unusual power, these terms and concepts are meant to impart. This is the way of martial arts and many other pursuits where you find people who, at any level you stop them at and ask.....are convinced they get it....until they meet someone who actually does.

Dan

Gary David 12-23-2012 11:30 AM

Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them
 
Quote:

Chris Hein wrote: (Post 320836)
Yes there are all kinds of different ideas out there Mark. I was interested in talking about a different idea then you are describing in this thread though.

Chris
I have high regard for Dan, what he is doing, and call him friend....I call Mark friend......one of my closest friends is John Clodig.......with whom I have shared what I can of Dan's approach. John finds value in Dan's stuff as well as some parallels........ Even if I couldn't see the value of Dan's solo practice myself, John's views would direct me there........

I am not very far along this path and at my age not sure how far I will get down it.........if you are ever in the area where I live here (maybe 10 miles from your teacher) in Long Beach you are welcome to stop by and we can talk and share......maybe clear some things up.......

Gary

Rob Watson 12-23-2012 12:38 PM

Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them
 
Quote:

Chris Hein wrote: (Post 320832)
When I use the word "Aiki" I am describing an ability to understand your attackers mind, physically blend with their physical movement, and letting your attackers spell their own demise. When I saw this video clip, it was a great example of what I would describe as Aiki. Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rroRNqBaF4w

Talk about awareness and a calm mind in the face of real danger- awesome!

Can he do it regularly? Can he teach others how to do it? How dos it work when folks are trying to kill you instead of just play patty cake with refs and a rigidly structured set of rules?

Does he describes what it is he does in the same or similar terms as you pin on him?

sorokod 12-23-2012 02:37 PM

Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them
 
I think there s a fair bit of this (leading the attacker) here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNDa6gvOoR4, for example around 14:40 time mark.

As to people being upset with you taking liberties with "their Aiki", they are invested in it (emotionally, financially, in terms of their training etc...) and so do not take kindly to people threatening the investment.

DH 12-23-2012 02:46 PM

Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them
 
Quote:

David Soroko wrote: (Post 320849)
I think there s a fair bit of this (leading the attacker) here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNDa6gvOoR4, for example around 14:40 time mark.

As to people being upset with you taking liberties with "their Aiki", they are invested in it (emotionally, financially, in terms of their training etc...) and so do not take kindly to people threatening the investment.

What does "their aiki" really mean?
I see it as just another way modern hobbyists have redefined what Yoga is, along with many other pastimes they have only ....invested....in a casual hobby like manner. As one Indian yogi said upon his return from abroad...."There is no yoga in the west....it's only housewives exercising."
Where are our legends of Aiki?
Dan

sorokod 12-23-2012 03:13 PM

Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them
 
Regarding historical evidence and how an argument based on that evidence can be presented, Prof. Goldsbury sets a high standard in his "Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation" series - definitely worth striving too.

Quote:

Christopher Li wrote: (Post 320844)
...
Anyway Mark and others have laid out quite a bit of historical material in support of their positions, I guess that's what a search engine is for.

This comes nowhere near, and neither does this.

Off course that the thing that is being proven, and the position that is being held is never fully and succinctly stated allows multiple supporters to happily coexist without a need for any evidence whatsoever.

sorokod 12-23-2012 04:46 PM

Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them
 
To be constructive I respectfully offer that an internet forum is not a good format to stage supporting evidence, state a position and argue it from the evidence. At this day and age it should cost about 0.0$ to establish a small web site to host all that, and it seems that there is enough cognitive firepower to create the content. There will be less ambiguities and passive aggressive "I did my research, now you do yours".

Aikiweb then can be used to openly discuss the evidence and the arguments.

Chris Li 12-23-2012 05:07 PM

Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them
 
Quote:

David Soroko wrote: (Post 320851)
Regarding historical evidence and how an argument based on that evidence can be presented, Prof. Goldsbury sets a high standard in his "Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation" series - definitely worth striving too.

This comes nowhere near, and neither does this.

Off course that the thing that is being proven, and the position that is being held is never fully and succinctly stated allows multiple supporters to happily coexist without a need for any evidence whatsoever.

Hmm, got sucked back in...

I'm not talking about proving something beyond a reasonable doubt on an internet forum. What I'm asking for is that if someone says "this is what I'm calling Aiki" then they at least show some evidence of a link to what Ueshiba stated as Aiki. Absent that they can just say that they made it up, it's their own opnion, or whatever, and people can draw their own conclusions.

FWIW, the "investment" (emotionally, financially, in terms of their training etc...) that you talked about is, in my experience, mainly an obstacle among the conventional Aikido folks - the other guys tend to be more open minded and investigative about what may or may not be working and why.

Also, in my experience, Dan is much clearer and succinct about stating what he is and what he is about then most conventional folks (although it may not all happen on an internet forum), or is it them that you're talking about?

Best,

Chris

MM 12-23-2012 05:25 PM

Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them
 
Quote:

David Soroko wrote: (Post 320852)
To be constructive I respectfully offer that an internet forum is not a good format to stage supporting evidence, state a position and argue it from the evidence. At this day and age it should cost about 0.0$ to establish a small web site to host all that, and it seems that there is enough cognitive firepower to create the content. There will be less ambiguities and passive aggressive "I did my research, now you do yours".

Aikiweb then can be used to openly discuss the evidence and the arguments.

I disagree. There is a ton of information here on Aikiweb. Just because people don't want to do the research to find it doesn't invalidate its presence here on Aikiweb. I and others have laid out quite a lot of research pointing to what Ueshiba meant about aiki. Other people just state that this is their definition and when asked for any research ... Well, historically, the discussion gets turned to personalities, word definition, and them asking for spoon fed research.

Where did Chris get his definition of aiki?

Mark

sorokod 12-23-2012 05:28 PM

Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them
 
Quote:

Christopher Li wrote: (Post 320853)
Hmm, got sucked back in...

I'm not talking about proving something beyond a reasonable doubt on an internet forum. What I'm asking for is that if someone says "this is what I'm calling Aiki" then they at least show some evidence of a link to what Ueshiba stated as Aiki. Absent that they can just say that they made it up, it's their own opnion, or whatever, and people can draw their own conclusions.

FWIW, the "investment" (emotionally, financially, in terms of their training etc...) that you talked about is, in my experience, mainly an obstacle among the conventional Aikido folks - the other guys tend to be more open minded and investigative about what may or may not be working and why.

Also, in my experience, Dan is much clearer and succinct about stating what he is and what he is about then most conventional folks (although it may not all happen on an internet forum), or is it them that you're talking about?

Best,

Chris

This is not about "proving something", this is about presenting a structured argument for a well defined statement supported by historic evidence such that one can read and form an opinion. So far I haven't seen anything like this and I suspect that this is because such structure will bear close scrutiny.

stan baker 12-23-2012 05:37 PM

Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them
 
There is a difference between football
And aiki you should at least know that

Stan

sorokod 12-23-2012 05:38 PM

Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them
 
Quote:

Mark Murray wrote: (Post 320854)
I disagree. There is a ton of information here on Aikiweb. Just because people don't want to do the research to find it doesn't invalidate its presence here on Aikiweb. I and others have laid out quite a lot of research pointing to what Ueshiba meant about aiki. Other people just state that this is their definition and when asked for any research ... Well, historically, the discussion gets turned to personalities, word definition, and them asking for spoon fed research.

Where did Chris get his definition of aiki?

Mark

I think you confuse information with evidence.

If you have relevant evidence please lay it out in a coherent manner in support of a clearly defined proposition. Surely its in your interest to present your case in the most clear and unambiguous way possible, why let the uninitiated wade through years and megabytes worth of information with uncertain results?

Keith Larman 12-23-2012 06:08 PM

Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them
 
Quote:

'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less.'
Words have meaning that can vary tremendously. So it is usually a good starting point to be more specific about what something means by pointing to examples. Chris does exactly that. Of course that just shows what Chris understands it to mean. That understanding can be spot on to what someone else may have meant when they used the word. I suppose the issue that most would be concerned with in context of Aikido is what Ueshiba Morihei meant when he used it. But that said, most of us are limited to understanding it in terms of our understandings of what our specific teachers meant. And so it goes, eh?

In the end we can use words to simplify, ignore, gloss over, or whatever we choose for that matter. So they can be liberating or they can shackle any chance of greater understanding with every other option in between.

Honestly that video contains aspects of what I was taught over the years. But just aspects and misses many more other meanings. So saying it is aiki or isn't aiki seems kind of silly to me since aiki has come to mean so many things to so many people. And so many things even within different contexts. But that said, I suppose I'm more interested in two things. One is what Ueshiba Morihei meant when he said it. The other is what I can understand and make work in my own practice hoping to instantiate what I suspect the first one was all about... Or at least my understanding of it.

Tis a pleasant puzzle, neh? But then again I find myself suffering from physical disability that prevents me from exploring as much as I'd like. I might have to find a way to take a long drive in a few weeks to work on things more...

Please carry on...

Dazzler 12-24-2012 05:29 AM

Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them
 
Heck....people could call this aiki if you like....some of you are calling it football.....I mean theres a guy with a peanut under his arm dancing around a bit ....running past the goal that the groundsmen havent even put a net on....and then starting to dance gangam stylee....What bit of that is football?:crazy:

Personally its closer to Pacman than what I think of as Aiki

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVH1mCc5EvU

sorokod 12-24-2012 05:50 AM

Re: Multiple attackers, using their idea of what is happening against them
 
More action from the Pacman :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNDa6gvOoR4#t=43m13s (about 43:13 time mark)


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