Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Training

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-23-2012, 08:16 AM   #226
HL1978
Dojo: Aunkai
Location: Fairfax, VA
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 424
United_States
Offline
Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
Another thing, you have had success with discovering these methods and teaching others, right? Well Ueshiba didn't. Therefore you cannot be doing what he was doing.
Is your position that what Ueshiba was doing was unique and thus can't be taught? If that's the case why study aikido if no one can ever become like Ueshiba?

Or is your position, that if Ueshiba was unable to teach others to do what he is doing, no one else can either? That would seem contradictory, if these skills were taught to him by others, but perhaps could be the case if they were unique to him. If it was that Ueshiba was unable to teach them, then it would be an interesting conversation to discuss why he couldn't. Was it his teaching model, his teaching ability, his curriculum, was it deliberate obfuscation, was it difficulty of the subject matter, was it a mismatch of background knowledge, was it poor students or other reasons? I'm sure there is scholarly material on the subject.

I don't want to be putting word into your mouth, could you explain your statement a bit more?
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2012, 08:25 AM   #227
Tengu859
Dojo: Yushinkan NYC
Location: New York
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 75
United_States
Offline
Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
You are using translations of certain excerpts of his words, exercises that you believe to be cognate, and your concept of the context is entirely your own. So what you are teaching is your own invention that has been heavily inspired by Ueshiba.

I still do not understand what is wrong with being honest about that.

Another thing, you have had success with discovering these methods and teaching others, right? Well Ueshiba didn't. Therefore you cannot be doing what he was doing.
Hey Cliff,

I think that what some people here are trying to say is that Ueshiba's training methods have deep roots in the Daito-ryu he learned from Sokaku Takeda. It would seem that Takeda taught Ueshiba a certain way to use his body. If I understand this correctly, this kind of body training has its roots in China and before that in India. This kind of training has been around for ages. But it is so different from the way we normally move that it is difficult to learn and apply. Ueshiba was one of those people with a gift and drive to embrace it and be able to apply it to his MA of choice, Daito-ryu.
For example, the book Hidden in Plain Sight and Mr Li's blogs, Mark M's posts give evidence of this. I find this an interesting study. Accept it or not. You make up your own mind. Does it really matter? No. Train in a vibrant and joyful manner... :0)

Take Care,

ChrisW

PS My aunt Sally really loves this thread!!! Thanks.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2012, 08:30 AM   #228
gregstec
Dojo: Aiki Kurabu
Location: Elizabethtown, PA
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,110
United_States
Offline
Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
So Ueshiba wrote in Chinese, then?
I am not sure if your comment is simply some form of sophomoric push back or a honest question. However, giving you the benefit of doubt this time, i will look at it as the latter.

It is pretty common knowledge that Ueshiba was a student of the Chinese classics - does that mean he could read and write in Chinese, don't know, but that does not mean he could not quote them if he could not.

Greg
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2012, 08:33 AM   #229
Cliff Judge
Dojo: Aikido Shobukan Dojo
Location: Columbia, MD
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 973
United_States
Offline
Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Quote:
Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
Is your position that what Ueshiba was doing was unique and thus can't be taught? If that's the case why study aikido if no one can ever become like Ueshiba?

Or is your position, that if Ueshiba was unable to teach others to do what he is doing, no one else can either? That would seem contradictory, if these skills were taught to him by others, but perhaps could be the case if they were unique to him. If it was that Ueshiba was unable to teach them, then it would be an interesting conversation to discuss why he couldn't. Was it his teaching model, his teaching ability, his curriculum, was it deliberate obfuscation, was it difficulty of the subject matter, was it a mismatch of background knowledge, was it poor students or other reasons? I'm sure there is scholarly material on the subject.

I don't want to be putting word into your mouth, could you explain your statement a bit more?
My point is that translated original documents, interviews with direct students, and a smattering of footage and photographs are completely insufficient to know what it was that Ueshiba was doing.

It you therefore go to internal Chinese martial arts to develop material that looks like it might be similar to what is suggested by these translations, films, and photos, it is a misrepresentation to say you are teaching "Ueshiba's aiki."
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2012, 08:39 AM   #230
Cliff Judge
Dojo: Aikido Shobukan Dojo
Location: Columbia, MD
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 973
United_States
Offline
Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
I am not sure if your comment is simply some form of sophomoric push back or a honest question. However, giving you the benefit of doubt this time, i will look at it as the latter.

It is pretty common knowledge that Ueshiba was a student of the Chinese classics - does that mean he could read and write in Chinese, don't know, but that does not mean he could not quote them if he could not.

Greg
Just sayin', you claimed he used the exact same words. In point of fact, both Japanese and Chinese are not the type of languages that are typically "exact" at anything.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2012, 08:42 AM   #231
Marc Abrams
Dojo: Aikido Arts of Shin Budo Kai/ Bedford Hills, New York
Location: New York
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,302
United_States
Offline
Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
So Ueshiba wrote in Chinese, then?
Cliff:

O'Sensei received the formal education of that time period, which just so happened to be studying the Chinese classics. The Meiji restoration period brought in an western-style education system where the Chinese classics were no longer taught.

Marc Abrams
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2012, 08:45 AM   #232
Cliff Judge
Dojo: Aikido Shobukan Dojo
Location: Columbia, MD
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 973
United_States
Offline
Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Quote:
Chris Western wrote: View Post
Hey Cliff,

I think that what some people here are trying to say is that Ueshiba's training methods have deep roots in the Daito-ryu he learned from Sokaku Takeda. It would seem that Takeda taught Ueshiba a certain way to use his body. If I understand this correctly, this kind of body training has its roots in China and before that in India. This kind of training has been around for ages. But it is so different from the way we normally move that it is difficult to learn and apply. Ueshiba was one of those people with a gift and drive to embrace it and be able to apply it to his MA of choice, Daito-ryu.
For example, the book Hidden in Plain Sight and Mr Li's blogs, Mark M's posts give evidence of this. I find this an interesting study. Accept it or not. You make up your own mind. Does it really matter? No. Train in a vibrant and joyful manner... :0)

Take Care,

ChrisW

PS My aunt Sally really loves this thread!!! Thanks.
Of course! Many people on this forum have found some new material that they are very enthusiastic about. There have been multiple epiphanies. That's really great!

But what they are training is not from Ueshiba, so it is not correct to say that it is "Ueshiba's".

There is a continual resistance to this truth, and the general shape of counter-argument goes along the lines of "but it is really great training," or "here are twelve Chris Li translations that seem to be talking about something I think i am talking about," or etc.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2012, 08:58 AM   #233
gregstec
Dojo: Aiki Kurabu
Location: Elizabethtown, PA
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,110
United_States
Offline
Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
Just sayin', you claimed he used the exact same words. In point of fact, both Japanese and Chinese are not the type of languages that are typically "exact" at anything.
OK, so I was wrong, you are being somewhat sophomoric. Yes, It is true that when the Chinese guy says yin and yang and the Japanese guy says in and yo, they are not exactly exact - however, they are saying exactly the same thing. Bottom line is my point in that post that the source of a lot of his stuff was Chinese - and if you poke around a bit, you will see that it is not just Dan saying that.

Greg
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2012, 09:07 AM   #234
HL1978
Dojo: Aunkai
Location: Fairfax, VA
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 424
United_States
Offline
Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
My point is that translated original documents, interviews with direct students, and a smattering of footage and photographs are completely insufficient to know what it was that Ueshiba was doing.

It you therefore go to internal Chinese martial arts to develop material that looks like it might be similar to what is suggested by these translations, films, and photos, it is a misrepresentation to say you are teaching "Ueshiba's aiki."
Ok I think I understand your argument.

I think what others might counter with is if Ueshiba's aiki, is substantially different from Sagawa's Aiki given a common root source,? Likewise, how much overlap there may be between something like what CXW or Sam Chin or others are doing? I think it would be fair to say that there are different flavours/interpretations of the skills IS folks are trying to build and presumably, one could develop aiki but it may be flavored differently than that of Ueshibia do to different life experiences, training paradigms etc. I think Mike Sigman was trying to cover this concept in his baseline skills thread years back saying there are some commonalities between different IS approaches, even if the eventual skills may have different levels or results.

This however seems to be a different argument, than the one the IS proponents are presenting. In using the phrase Ueshiba's Aiki, they are referring to Aiki in the internal martial arts context, and that Ueshiba was utilizing Internal training principles and methods. I don't think they are claiming that there is only one aiki, or they are doing the exact same flavor as Ueshiba, rather aiki as expressed as martial arts principle, in which case one could look to translations, films and photos for evidence.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2012, 09:27 AM   #235
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,078
United_States
Offline
Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
So Ueshiba wrote in Chinese, then?
Actually, yes, every Japanese person writes in Chinese .

More seriously, the Chinese influence on Japanese culture is a no-brainer, although it often (usually) tends to be downplayed by the Japanese themselves.

For example - Hiroshi Tada stated in an interview that he was raised memorizing and reciting the Confucian classics.

Ueshiba's education in the Shingon temple was similar - memorizing and reciting Chinese classical texts.

What comes then is the question of specific relevance to Ueshiba's thoughts and methods vis-a-vis martial training.

Well, Ueshiba often said pointed to the "secret of Aikido" - and examining where that came from is quite interesting.

Also, as Greg noted, as you start to work your way through text left behind by Ueshiba you find that he cited classical Chinese martial arts concepts repetitively and incessantly.

Does that make a difference?

Maybe, if you believe (as I do) that the base theory of whatever you're doing is of importance. The problem with getting away from the base principles and concepts is that the cause and the effect, while related, are often two quite separate things, IMO.

Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2012, 09:30 AM   #236
Cliff Judge
Dojo: Aikido Shobukan Dojo
Location: Columbia, MD
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 973
United_States
Offline
Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Quote:
Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
OK, so I was wrong, you are being somewhat sophomoric. Yes, It is true that when the Chinese guy says yin and yang and the Japanese guy says in and yo, they are not exactly exact - however, they are saying exactly the same thing. Bottom line is my point in that post that the source of a lot of his stuff was Chinese - and if you poke around a bit, you will see that it is not just Dan saying that.

Greg
If the source of his stuff is Chinese, then that would mean the source of Takeda's stuff is Chinese. But there is no proof of this, because where Takeda learned his material from is exponentially more hazy than Ueshiba. And maybe it is meant to be, but that's aside the point.

Now going to Chinese internal martial arts and creating a system that you believe to be cognate to Ueshiba's personal practice is all well and good! If it helps you push on walls and stuff better, more power to you, that drywall had it coming!

But you aren't practicing what Ueshiba was practicing. It is even debatable whether it is a reconstruction. Incorrectly representing what you are doing as "the true Aikido of Ueshiba" would STILL not be a huge deal as long as you didn't use that as a jusitification to argue against people who follow an actual lineage that goes to Ueshiba and have different technical ideas.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2012, 09:38 AM   #237
Cliff Judge
Dojo: Aikido Shobukan Dojo
Location: Columbia, MD
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 973
United_States
Offline
Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Quote:
Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
I don't think they are claiming that there is only one aiki, or they are doing the exact same flavor as Ueshiba,
I think I have been pretty clear that my criticism of Dan and his students is that they are arguing exactly these two things. Would love to hear otherwise.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2012, 09:39 AM   #238
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
Of course! Many people on this forum have found some new material that they are very enthusiastic about. There have been multiple epiphanies. That's really great!

But what they are training is not from Ueshiba, so it is not correct to say that it is "Ueshiba's".

There is a continual resistance to this truth, and the general shape of counter-argument goes along the lines of "but it is really great training," or "here are twelve Chris Li translations that seem to be talking about something I think i am talking about," or etc.
This is not a counter argument Cliff.
So your saying if Ueshiba discussed Math... that math is now unique to him?
So instead he discusses known methods for generating power and handling forces....so they are now unique to him?
What is really happening is a gradual realization that it is the Aikido community (including top Shihan) who were just simply ignorant, (sometimes self admittedly ignorant) of these concepts. That's not me insulting anyone. There is nothing wrong with not knowing these things. Chiba admitted to not knowing what the old man was talking about and he couldn't wait for him to shut up so they could get back to training. He said it...twice.

I've said this dozens of times to a largely unaware audience: Ueshiba discussed terms and concepts that are a perfect match with the same terms and concepts used across cultures and time by warriors. These terms were for concepts known for producing power.

Not knowing them and how to do them is one thing. Not even knowing they existed? Well... it certainly doesn't make someone right, it makes them...well...er....in need of better information.

Example:
Heaven/earth/ man and the floating bridge
This is the foremost way to learn to manage forces within you. Putting the cosmology aside, it is a body method taught in certain yogic practices, in the internal arts of China, It was noted for being taught at the Kashima and Katori shrines as far back as the mid 1400's. When it is mentioned, it is mentioned for producing power. Ueshiba noted it "released the mountain echo" This is pertinent in that he demonstrated it regularly when people "echoed" or bounced off him. There are minor and major ways of using it. Some more sophisticated than others.

Incidentally, The vertical twirling of the bo or jo he does is not him stirring the toilet bowl of the gods. It is in fact yet another way of practicing and utilizing the above powers, which is not unique to him either.

Six directions
This is yet another term used repeatedly and has a pedagogy mentioned in the above paragraph on Heaven/earth/man. It matches Tohei's use of the one point model. The method used to make it work however is not just standing their dreaming of all directions and extending ki, rather it has a palpable effect on the whole system. Even more interesting is that Tohei's use of the term "one point" is not his either, it came directly out of his yoga practices and terminology.

And both of these tie in neatly to Ueshiba's answer on "What makes aiki?" His answer being a quite definitive breaking point for our discussion right now....
He answered by drawing a circle and stating "It is opposing forces."
One camp thinks it means to people meeting and you always make circles around their force.
The other camp correctly understands the classic model that it is sustained opposing forces within you (prior to any contact) that remains and manipulates their force on contact.

Hence my statement (and Ueshiba's) that aiki is not awase.
Hence, Shirata dividng the models as well, stating "Place the immovable body (aiki as opposing forces)...in an invincible position." (awase).
Hence, my phrase "Aiki in me before aiki between thee and me"


This is the age old model for producing a central dynamic balance in the body through solo training to sustain forces within yourself priorr to any contact-that makes aiki on contact. NOT MOVEMENT or FITTING IN.

As far as his ideas not being unique-I could go on and on. Another example being his phrases on ten units of force being managed by five and five or seven and three Which is a direct quote from the Tora no maki. Or again his use of the guest hand and host hand which is a direct quote right out of the Chen taiji treatise.

Again there are simple and more advanced means to do these things.

None of this ever addresses my other points.
You disagree? Fine.
You get it? Fine
Why don't you feel like Ueshiba?
To what degree or degrees are you on a path that makes soft power and aiki?
Why do all of your teachers we meet keep failing under testing by those who do understand these things?
If we are gonzo, making stuff up, and having personal epiphanies...why do all of our terms and concepts fit known terms and concepts used by martial artists in other cultures to produce power like the type Ueshiba had and yours don't?
Why is it that those of us embracing these things (things that you assign to some random personal epiphany) are producing greater soft power and aiki on a consistent basis? Why....good golly batman !!! Is it yet another wiz bang singular genius at work????
Or is it just yet another generation, learning the same ol stuff that produced other giants before us?

I don't have to bet on the later, I am proving it seminar after seminar against your teachers and now others are as well. It's really only a matter of time before you either embrace it, or stubbornly refuse to just out of spite and anger. Why do I say that? Because it has an almost 100% conversion rate. And why is THAT?
Because it's the best way to do aiki...do.

Last
1. Why is it that -in person-none of you can match your rhetoric with action and results to match our rhetoric and results?
And
2. Why do you keep avoiding that question?
It certainly makes yet another compelling point for our case.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 10-23-2012 at 09:54 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2012, 09:51 AM   #239
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,078
United_States
Offline
Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
Of course! Many people on this forum have found some new material that they are very enthusiastic about. There have been multiple epiphanies. That's really great!

But what they are training is not from Ueshiba, so it is not correct to say that it is "Ueshiba's".
Interestingly, Stan Pranin has been saying for years that this is true for most modern Aikido (his term!):

http://blog.aikidojournal.com/2011/1...tanley-pranin/

Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2012, 10:19 AM   #240
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

I thought the opening paragraph was clear and definitive and worth pasting here. Interesting that he developed a hypothesis early on, that later proved itself out upon further, more in-depth study and research during his time in Japan.
Quote:
After practicing and researching aikido for a number of years, I gradually arrived at a hypothesis that went against conventional wisdom and the testimonies of numerous shihan who claimed to have spent long years studying at the side of Aikido Founder Morihei Ueshiba. I had over the years attended numerous seminars given in the USA by Japanese teachers, and also made several trips to Japan where I had seen and trained with many of the best known teachers. My theory was simply that aikido as we know it today was not the art practiced and taught by O-Sensei, but rather any one of a number of derivative forms developed by key students who studied under the Founder for relatively short periods of time. This would account for the considerable divergency in styles, the relatively small number of techniques taught, and the absence of an Omoto-like religious perspective in the modern forms of the art. This was not meant as a criticism of these “modern” forms of the art, but rather an observation based on historical research that ran contrary to common perception.
There were folks who studied for aprox. 5-6 years before being sent out to run the aikido programs for whole countries and become the "word" for all things aikido to those they taught.
Dan
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2012, 10:19 AM   #241
Rob Watson
Location: CA
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 698
United_States
Offline
Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hence my statement (and Ueshiba's) that aiki is not awase.
Hence, Shirata dividng the models as well, stating "Place the immovable body (aiki as opposing forces)...in an invincible position." (awase).
Hence, my phrase "Aiki in me before aiki between thee and me"
Maybe "Aiki in me before awase between me and thee"? Put a bow on it and we are ready for the next step. The peanut gallery has now spoken.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2012, 10:26 AM   #242
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
Maybe "Aiki in me before awase between me and thee"? Put a bow on it and we are ready for the next step. The peanut gallery has now spoken.
Except that there can be elements of aiki in awase... and we
Accept that awase can be just movement with no aiki in it at all
Except when awase is born from aiki and has aiki in it.

We have to accept that there are exceptions to awase having aiki in it!!

If aiki were just externally moving in space and timing with an opponent, no seasoned martial artists would have crossed the street to train it.
running and ducking
Dan
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2012, 10:42 AM   #243
ChrisMoses
Dojo: TNBBC (Icho Ryu Aiki Budo), Shinto Ryu IaiBattojutsu
Location: Seattle, WA
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 906
United_States
Offline
Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Woah, time machine thread!

Quite a few years ago I was watching an Iaido demo with my friend Scott Irey (all around miscreant and pretty good Iaidoka). Some of the folks had some dynamic movement, but it was pretty meh. Scott leaned over to me and said (paraphrasing), "See, they're all stuck on the postures. They're just moving from posture to posture. If you were taking photographs, it would look OK, but there's nothing in between the separate postures. The meat of the art is what leads you from posture to posture, not the posture itself."

Tru dat. Most of us are hopelessly caught by the posture. We have no ability to even see what happens between them. It's a mummers farce.

/still waiting for Chris Li to get around to "the cross of aiki" or whatever it actually said.

Chris Moses
TNBBC, "Putting the ME in MEdiocre!"
Shinto Ryu Iai Battojutsu
TNBBC Blog
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2012, 10:44 AM   #244
Cliff Judge
Dojo: Aikido Shobukan Dojo
Location: Columbia, MD
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 973
United_States
Offline
Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
This is not a counter argument Cliff.
So your saying if Ueshiba discussed Math... that math is now unique to him?
So instead he discusses known methods for generating power and handling forces....so they are now unique to him?
What is really happening is a gradual realization that it is the Aikido community (including top Shihan) who were just simply ignorant, (sometimes self admittedly ignorant) of these concepts. That's not me insulting anyone. There is nothing wrong with not knowing these things. Chiba admitted to not knowing what the old man was talking about and he couldn't wait for him to shut up so they could get back to training. He said it...twice.

I've said this dozens of times to a largely unaware audience: Ueshiba discussed terms and concepts that are a perfect match with the same terms and concepts used across cultures and time by warriors. These terms were for concepts known for producing power.

Not knowing them and how to do them is one thing. Not even knowing they existed? Well... it certainly doesn't make someone right, it makes them...well...er....in need of better information.
Sure, Ueshiba used a non-unique training paradigm to achieve the power that seems to be expressed in photos, footage, and contemporaneous accounts. It certainly seems logical that you can find that training paradigm in other arts. So that's what you did, right? What you offer is training based on these other arts.

This is definitely progress, I think we are getting there.

Not sure why you have to trot the old man's bones out and beat them to death constantly, if what he was doing can be found in these other places, though.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2012, 10:47 AM   #245
Tengu859
Dojo: Yushinkan NYC
Location: New York
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 75
United_States
Offline
Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
Of course! Many people on this forum have found some new material that they are very enthusiastic about. There have been multiple epiphanies. That's really great!

But what they are training is not from Ueshiba, so it is not correct to say that it is "Ueshiba's".

There is a continual resistance to this truth, and the general shape of counter-argument goes along the lines of "but it is really great training," or "here are twelve Chris Li translations that seem to be talking about something I think i am talking about," or etc.
Hey Cliff,

Great!!! Then you have made up your mind. For you it's not Ueshiba's Aiki. So why continue to debate with those people...?!?!? Enjoy the ride. Let them bask in their...I think you get my point. ;0)

Take Care,

ChrisW
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2012, 10:53 AM   #246
Chris Li
 
Chris Li's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Sangenkai
Location: Honolulu, Hawaii
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,078
United_States
Offline
Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Woah, time machine thread!

Quite a few years ago I was watching an Iaido demo with my friend Scott Irey (all around miscreant and pretty good Iaidoka). Some of the folks had some dynamic movement, but it was pretty meh. Scott leaned over to me and said (paraphrasing), "See, they're all stuck on the postures. They're just moving from posture to posture. If you were taking photographs, it would look OK, but there's nothing in between the separate postures. The meat of the art is what leads you from posture to posture, not the posture itself."

Tru dat. Most of us are hopelessly caught by the posture. We have no ability to even see what happens between them. It's a mummers farce.

/still waiting for Chris Li to get around to "the cross of aiki" or whatever it actually said.
Off to Korea tomorrow, then Dan in November - some day...

There was a little bit here
- there's more, I'll try to get to it eventually!

Best,

Chris

  Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2012, 11:01 AM   #247
ChrisMoses
Dojo: TNBBC (Icho Ryu Aiki Budo), Shinto Ryu IaiBattojutsu
Location: Seattle, WA
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 906
United_States
Offline
Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Off to Korea tomorrow, then Dan in November - some day...

There was a little bit here
- there's more, I'll try to get to it eventually!

Best,

Chris
Awesome, I missed that post. Thanks.

Chris Moses
TNBBC, "Putting the ME in MEdiocre!"
Shinto Ryu Iai Battojutsu
TNBBC Blog
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2012, 11:16 AM   #248
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
Sure, Ueshiba used a non-unique training paradigm to achieve the power that seems to be expressed in photos, footage, and contemporaneous accounts. It certainly seems logical that you can find that training paradigm in other arts. So that's what you did, right? What you offer is training based on these other arts.

This is definitely progress, I think we are getting there.

Not sure why you have to trot the old man's bones out and beat them to death constantly, if what he was doing can be found in these other places, though.
Well, Cliff that logic misses both the forest and the trees.
Since you now agree these training terms and concepts exist and he named them, discussed them, and used them to make his aikido....
The questions are
1. Why doesn't everyone?
2. Why can't they explain them?
3. Why don't they know them and where they came from and are also used?
Last and most compelling is my question...still as yet unanswered (I don't think anyone really wants to answer it)....
4. Why do those who cannot explain them, do not know where they came from and do not practice them feel like everyone else, and we... who do know them, explain them and practice and use them feel like we do?


As for moving forward and not having to repeat
1. Yes...we are trotting out his bones. It's because it used to be his art and we are helping people who want to learn his aiki.
2. Yes I already know that claiming we have a better understanding of what his aiki was draws fire.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 10-23-2012 at 11:26 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2012, 11:21 AM   #249
Tengu859
Dojo: Yushinkan NYC
Location: New York
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 75
United_States
Offline
Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
Sure, Ueshiba used a non-unique training paradigm to achieve the power that seems to be expressed in photos, footage, and contemporaneous accounts. It certainly seems logical that you can find that training paradigm in other arts. So that's what you did, right? What you offer is training based on these other arts.

This is definitely progress, I think we are getting there.

Not sure why you have to trot the old man's bones out and beat them to death constantly, if what he was doing can be found in these other places, though.
Seems like Dan is just an "Ueshiba Fanboy"...!!! I'm a big fan myself...!!!

Enjoy,

ChrisW and Aunt Sally
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2012, 11:22 AM   #250
Cliff Judge
Dojo: Aikido Shobukan Dojo
Location: Columbia, MD
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 973
United_States
Offline
Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
We are trotting out his bones because it used to be his art. So, who then...is doing his Aiki..do?
Dan
Not you.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Budo Bear Patterns - Sewing pattern for Women's (and Men's) dogi.



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Aikido does not work at all in a fight. joeysola General 1930 07-09-2012 02:51 AM
A Primer on Aikido, Aiki and IS David Orange Non-Aikido Martial Traditions 77 11-28-2011 08:58 AM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 18 Peter Goldsbury Columns 187 09-08-2011 02:41 PM
Aiki Pointers? MM Non-Aikido Martial Traditions 10 10-07-2010 10:56 AM
Culture of Martial Mediocrity? L. Camejo Training 160 02-03-2006 01:25 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:54 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate