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-   -   VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21836)

MM 10-09-2012 09:34 AM

VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI
 
Quote:

David Alexander wrote:
The founder of AIKIDO, Morihei Ueshiba O-sensei, spent many years adapting techniques from Daito-Ryu Jujitsu and other martial arts to embody the principle of AWASE.

As far as I know, this is an unsupported idea. There idea that Ueshiba's aikido came from "other martial arts" is rather, well, wrong.

1. His primary and main influence was Sokaku Takeda and Daito ryu.
2. Footage of Ueshiba into his old age shows stock Daito ryu techniques, with atemi.
3. Driscoll has a corollary here on aikiweb showing a high percentage equivalence with Daito ryu.
4. After viewing other arts, Ueshiba would state, we'd do it this way with aiki.
5. Mochizuki lamented, not the fact that Ueshiba did other arts, but rather that he pared down the Daito ryu techniques.
6. Koshinage and tanto dori did not come from Morihei Ueshiba.
7. A set curriculum of techniques did not come from Morihei Ueshiba.

Everything Ueshiba did after meeting Takeda, was done with aiki. Aiki being the body changing method as taught to him by Sokaku Takeda.

When Ueshiba could not be pushed over by Tenryu, it wasn't because Ueshiba knew the secret of awase. (A: I know the secret of aiki)

When asked why no one could do what he could, Ueshiba didn't answer that it was because they misunderstood awase. (A: You do not understand in yo ho)

When students listened to him, they didn't complain that they had a hard time understanding awase. (A: Floating Bridge of Heaven, heaven/earth/man, Izanagi/Izanami, inyo, fire/water, etc See Chris Li's great translations for information)

Now, if we want to talk Modern Aikido and awase, that's a whole different story. But, tossing Morihei Ueshiba into the mix with awase as "an understanding of the aspect of AIKIDO that makes it unique among martial arts" ... well, I would say that aiki is the unique aspect.

Cliff Judge 10-09-2012 11:27 AM

Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI
 
Quote:

Mark Murray wrote: (Post 316801)
6. Koshinage and tanto dori did not come from Morihei Ueshiba.

I thought the general understanding was that classical Aikido koshinage comes from the branch of Yagyu Shingan ryu that Ueshiba studied?

Quote:

Mark Murray wrote: (Post 316801)
Everything Ueshiba did after meeting Takeda, was done with aiki. Aiki being the body changing method as taught to him by Sokaku Takeda.

Why are you stating this as a fact?

MM 10-09-2012 01:12 PM

Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI
 
Quote:

Cliff Judge wrote: (Post 316805)
I thought the general understanding was that classical Aikido koshinage comes from the branch of Yagyu Shingan ryu that Ueshiba studied?

As Driscoll noted, there are koshiguruma in Daito ryu. However, the "koshi nage" throws we see in Modern Aikido, I don't believe came from Ueshiba. It's my understanding that there were quite a few "koshi nage" techniques added from some people at Tokyo hombu. The devil is in the details, though. What and how Ueshiba did a technique was not, generally, the same as how Tokyo did them. I would find it more plausable that Ueshiba was doing koshiguruma than Modern Aikido's koshinage for the techniques he did.

While I'm told that there are IP/aiki training methods in koryu, some existing, some extinct (the training methods), it would be rather unique to find Ueshiba taking one small technique from another art when he's stuck to 99.9999% of Daito ryu because the art itself was all about IP/aiki. Still, yes, I do consider that it is a possibility. :)

Quote:

Cliff Judge wrote: (Post 316805)
Why are you stating this as a fact?

It is. Why is it that you don't know it? :) (Yes, it's the silly answer. I didn't know that I didn't know.)

Seriously, that's a long, involved, detailed answer that spans decades of work from a multitude of people. The end of that research shows a conclusion to what I stated. It is complex. It is rather striking in its simplicity. At the end of the day, it's still the truth.

Tengu859 10-09-2012 01:15 PM

Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI
 
Quote:

Cliff Judge wrote: (Post 316805)
I thought the general understanding was that classical Aikido koshinage comes from the branch of Yagyu Shingan ryu that Ueshiba studied?

Why are you stating this as a fact?

Hello Cliff,

Not so sure that koshinage has its origin in Yagyu-ryu. I think there is a good case that it in fact comes from the Soden waza taught by Sokaku Takeda. But I must admit I've never seen the Yagyu techinque attributed to koshinage. Maybe in biased toward Daito-ryu...if you could a link to he Yagyu technique would be helpful. I would love to see it. Take care. :0)

All the Best,

ChrisW

Cliff Judge 10-09-2012 01:31 PM

Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI
 
Quote:

Chris Western wrote: (Post 316810)
Hello Cliff,

Not so sure that koshinage has its origin in Yagyu-ryu. I think there is a good case that it in fact comes from the Soden waza taught by Sokaku Takeda. But I must admit I've never seen the Yagyu techinque attributed to koshinage. Maybe in biased toward Daito-ryu...if you could a link to he Yagyu technique would be helpful. I would love to see it. Take care. :0)

All the Best,

ChrisW

I was just referring to John Driscoll's article which is on this very forum. http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...light=Driscoll

Tengu859 10-09-2012 01:54 PM

Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI
 
Hey Cliff,

I read it along with his other article and e-budo as well. I'm still not sure. Maybe Takeda stole it from Yagyu...guess we will never know for sure. Sorry for the thread drift guys. Take Care.

Thanks,
ChrisW

PS I like the idea that Takeda and Ueshiba, aikified what ever they felt like after seeing it. :0)

sorokod 10-09-2012 02:48 PM

Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI
 
Quote:

Mark Murray wrote: (Post 316801)
As far as I know, this is an unsupported idea. There idea that Ueshiba's aikido came from "other martial arts" is rather, well, wrong.

As far as I know, the weapon system didn't come from Daito-Ryu.

Cliff Judge 10-09-2012 04:16 PM

Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI
 
Quote:

Mark Murray wrote: (Post 316809)
Seriously, that's a long, involved, detailed answer that spans decades of work from a multitude of people. The end of that research shows a conclusion to what I stated. It is complex. It is rather striking in its simplicity. At the end of the day, it's still the truth.

Well I do not agree with you but I will certainly back away very very slowly. :crazy:

Carl Thompson 10-09-2012 04:58 PM

Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI
 
Hello Mark

Quote:

Mark Murray wrote: (Post 316801)
1. His primary and main influence was Sokaku Takeda and Daito ryu.
2. Footage of Ueshiba into his old age shows stock Daito ryu techniques, with atemi.
3. Driscoll has a corollary here on aikiweb showing a high percentage equivalence with Daito ryu.
4. After viewing other arts, Ueshiba would state, we'd do it this way with aiki.
5. Mochizuki lamented, not the fact that Ueshiba did other arts, but rather that he pared down the Daito ryu techniques.
6. Koshinage and tanto dori did not come from Morihei Ueshiba.
7. A set curriculum of techniques did not come from Morihei Ueshiba.

As I understand it, No.1 has not been denied regarding the physical and technical side of things in Iwama. As you say, atemi is normal in the aikido Osensei taught. A high percentage of Daito Ryu is not being refuted. That doesn't mean the sword wasn't derived from Kashima or the jo didn't come from unrelated spear work. Not to mention changes Osensei made himself to the technical repertoire (moving nikyo ura to the shoulder, iriminage) etc.

I understand you keep plenty of references, so I'd be interested in the Mochizuki quote if you have it.

Quote:

Mark Murray wrote: (Post 316801)
Everything Ueshiba did after meeting Takeda, was done with aiki. Aiki being the body changing method as taught to him by Sokaku Takeda.

When Ueshiba could not be pushed over by Tenryu, it wasn't because Ueshiba knew the secret of awase. (A: I know the secret of aiki)

When asked why no one could do what he could, Ueshiba didn't answer that it was because they misunderstood awase. (A: You do not understand in yo ho)

When students listened to him, they didn't complain that they had a hard time understanding awase. (A: Floating Bridge of Heaven, heaven/earth/man, Izanagi/Izanami, inyo, fire/water, etc See Chris Li's great translations for information)

Now, if we want to talk Modern Aikido and awase, that's a whole different story. But, tossing Morihei Ueshiba into the mix with awase as "an understanding of the aspect of AIKIDO that makes it unique among martial arts" ... well, I would say that aiki is the unique aspect.

You might have educate me a little more on the terminology here: I thought IP (internal power) was the engine that is supposed to have driven the kind of strength that made Osensei immovable to Tenryu. I would equate that to kokyu-roku (teachers often say "onaka kara no chikara" - power from inside). It seems to me that the awase Alexander sensei is talking about is not kokyu-ryoku (IP). His articles on the related subject of kokyu-training have been around for years.

http://www.iwama-aikido.com/resist.html

Regards

Carl

gregstec 10-09-2012 06:30 PM

Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI
 
Quote:

Chris Western wrote: (Post 316816)

PS I like the idea that Takeda and Ueshiba, aikified what ever they felt like after seeing it. :0)

You making up words again, buddy :)

Greg

MM 10-09-2012 08:04 PM

Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI
 
I don't mind being wrong. :)

Daito ryu = guruma. Ueshiba did? From what I've seen, guruma. So, where exactly did koshi nage come from if Ueshiba didn't do it?

Weapons. Ueshiba doing weapons does not look like any koryu I know of or have seen. In fact, people keep trying to find the koryu he took things from. How about we take Ueshiba at his word ... with aiki, we would do it this way. Which leads us straight back to Daito ryu aiki, now in weapons. Courtesy of Sokaku Takeda.

My comments about awase are that it isn't what made Ueshiba's aikido unique. It was IP/aiki. Awase was for Modern Aikido. :)

The Mochizuki quote ... I'll have to dig, but I'm pretty sure I have it. Somewhere in archives. :)

Thanks,
Mark

Tengu859 10-09-2012 08:08 PM

Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI
 
Quote:

Greg Steckel wrote: (Post 316829)
You making up words again, buddy :)

Greg

Howdy Greg,

YUUP...(in my loudest DaveHester voice)!!! If Takeda could make up pretzel waza on the spot...then I can make up words!!! :0)

Take Care,

ChrisW

MM 10-09-2012 08:21 PM

Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI
 
1980 Black Belt Issue Vol 18 No 4. Article by David Orange, Jr. :)

Isn't a direct quote from Mochizuki. Paragraph reads:

Mochizuki does not wish to put himself on Uyeshiba's level, but he wonders why Uyeshiba employed only about 15 of the 350 techniques of daitoryu aikijujitsu in his aikido. "Between two well trained opponents," Mochizuki said, "a punch or kick or throw will have little effecct. the strongest one on the ground will win." Therefore, he places emphasis on judo.

Mark

sorokod 10-10-2012 04:03 AM

Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI
 
Quote:

Mark Murray wrote: (Post 316831)
I don't mind being wrong. :)

Weapons. Ueshiba doing weapons does not look like any koryu I know of or have seen. In fact, people keep trying to find the koryu he took things from. How about we take Ueshiba at his word ... with aiki, we would do it this way. Which leads us straight back to Daito ryu aiki, now in weapons. Courtesy of Sokaku Takeda.

Have a look at http://members.aikidojournal.com/pub...unders-aikido/. Specifically
Quote:

The Founder showed a great interest in the sword throughout his martial arts career. He even received a Yagyu Shinkage-ryu sword certification from Sokaku Takeda in 1922 although the exact content of his sword training under Sokaku is not known. Later in 1937, he officially joined the Kashima Shinto-ryu classical school which had an influence on his experimentation with the sword especially during the Iwama years from 1942 to about 1960.

O-Sensei made no attempt to codify or develop sword kata to be used formally in aikido training. The sword was for the Founder an extension of divine power to be used only for life-giving purposes. His sword work—and the same can be said of his jo—was merely a different tool for the expression of aiki movement based on the same universal principles as taijutsu techniques.
Looks congruent with OPs original statement of

Quote:

The founder of AIKIDO, Morihei Ueshiba O-sensei, spent many years adapting techniques from Daito-Ryu Jujitsu and other martial arts to embody the principle of AWASE.

Chris Li 10-10-2012 04:46 AM

Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI
 
Quote:

Cliff Judge wrote: (Post 316805)
I thought the general understanding was that classical Aikido koshinage comes from the branch of Yagyu Shingan ryu that Ueshiba studied?

Here's an interesting opinion from Yasuo Kobayashi:

Quote:

While we're discussing this, as far as I know koshi-nage was not practiced much in the beginning. After Nishio and Kuroiwa researched it independently other instructors began to steal their techniques.
Best,

Chris

sorokod 10-10-2012 06:09 AM

Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI
 
Link to a Noma dojo photo (1930s) of the Founder doing koshinage

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...eat=directlink

Chris Li 10-10-2012 06:43 AM

Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI
 
Quote:

David Soroko wrote: (Post 316844)
Link to a Noma dojo photo (1930s) of the Founder doing koshinage

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...eat=directlink

I would class that as koshi guruma, rather than what Kuroiwa and Nishio were doing. Anyway, this seems to be getting side tracked from Mark's original point, which is that Awase and Aiki are not quite equivalent.

Not that there's anything wrong with awase...

In any case, I think that the argument that Ueshiba made substantial changes to Daito-ryu on a technical level, or the argument that he incorporated principles from many different martial arts of which Daito-ryu was one, is a hard one to support these days.

Best,

Chris

sorokod 10-10-2012 07:03 AM

Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI
 
This is how Koshinage is done in the Iwama lineage at present, see here for example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOkH7USu_yw .Kuroiwa and Nishio were doing their own hip throws that were obviously different.

Quote:

Mark Murray wrote:
6. Koshinage and tanto dori did not come from Morihei Ueshiba.
Not sure what "come from" means here but the Founder was doing this stuff since before the war.

Tengu859 10-10-2012 07:19 AM

Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI
 
Quote:

Christopher Li wrote: (Post 316847)
I would class that as koshi guruma, rather than what Kuroiwa and Nishio were doing. Anyway, this seems to be getting side tracked from Mark's original point, which is that Awase and Aiki are not quite equivalent.

Not that there's anything wrong with awase...

In any case, I think that the argument that Ueshiba made substantial changes to Daito-ryu on a technical level, or the argument that he incorporated principles from many different martial arts of which Daito-ryu was one, is a hard one to support these days.

Best,

Chris

Sorry Chris(steady tangent),

So do you feel that what Saito did in Iwama and what kuroiwa was doing at Hombu different? Kata garuma, koshinage...apples and oranges, or grannysmith, macintosh? I see in the Noma link what you mean, kata garuma, DR yes. Maybe I am just hung up on terminology, like aikinage, kokyunage. Thanks. :0)

Take Care,
ChrisW

sorokod 10-10-2012 07:33 AM

Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI
 
Just to be clear about the name, in the Iwama system there is a specific technique called Koshinage. This is the technique demonstrated by Saito sensei in the video and this is how an Iwama practitioner would call the move the Founder is doing in the photo. It's not a generic name to the family of heap throws.

Cliff Judge 10-10-2012 09:25 AM

Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI
 
Quote:

Carl Thompson wrote: (Post 316826)
You might have educate me a little more on the terminology here: I thought IP (internal power) was the engine that is supposed to have driven the kind of strength that made Osensei immovable to Tenryu. I would equate that to kokyu-roku (teachers often say "onaka kara no chikara" - power from inside). It seems to me that the awase Alexander sensei is talking about is not kokyu-ryoku (IP).

The "AWASE" concept really sounded to me like all of the stuff I try to work on that is supposed to happen before or without regard to any physical contact. Things that have to do with timing, awareness, communication, etc...I don't see IP having any bearing on these things, whereas I see them as all (including IP) as facets of aiki.

Carl Thompson 10-10-2012 10:01 AM

Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI
 
Quote:

Mark Murray wrote: (Post 316834)
1980 Black Belt Issue Vol 18 No 4. Article by David Orange, Jr. :)

Isn't a direct quote from Mochizuki. Paragraph reads:

Mochizuki does not wish to put himself on Uyeshiba's level, but he wonders why Uyeshiba employed only about 15 of the 350 techniques of daitoryu aikijujitsu in his aikido. "Between two well trained opponents," Mochizuki said, "a punch or kick or throw will have little effecct. the strongest one on the ground will win." Therefore, he places emphasis on judo.

Mark

Thank you.

If Osensei only employed 15 out of 350 Daito-ryu techniques, that makes the repertoire of techniques he left among his students in Iwama shockingly Daito-ryu-free:

Quote:

What is commonly referred to as Iwama Aikido is a vast technical system consisting of taijutsu, aiki ken and aiki jo techniques. The taijutsu component alone includes somewhere in the vicinity of 600 techniques. Add the various weapons suburi and paired exercises and you have well over 1,000 distinct forms.
From Stanley Pranin.
http://blog.aikidojournal.com/2012/0...tanley-pranin/

Also Osensei himself said:
Quote:

There are about 3,000 basic techniques, and each one of them has 16 variations . . . so there are many thousands. Depending on the situation, you create new ones.
I think the very definition of 'technique' and the concept of what that training method is trying to achieve can blur the boundaries. Maybe only 15 were left unaltered?

Quote:

Mark Murray wrote: (Post 316831)
Daito ryu = guruma. Ueshiba did? From what I've seen, guruma. So, where exactly did koshi nage come from if Ueshiba didn't do it?

The Daito-ryu koshi-guruma is a hip throw. Osensei taught many throws involving the hips and they are known as koshinage (hip throws). According to this research, only two hip throws were in the Daito-Ryu Hiden (both referred to as koshiguruma): http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14306

Osensei left dozens in Iwama.

Basically, what Alexander Sensei said stands.

Morihiro Saito Shihan (interviewed by Stanley Pranin):
Quote:

O-Sensei was greatly influenced by Daito-ryu. It is said that when he was practicing Daito-ryu he confronted many problems so he tried various other arts including Aioi-ryu before the war. After the war when he resumed practicing in Iwama his aikido had changed dramatically. Even though he had been influenced by Daito-ryu there are many distinct differences between O-Sensei's aikido and Daito-ryu. For example, aikido is taught from hanmi, but hanmi is not taught in Daito-ryu. Neither is kokyuho. Although Daito-ryu has many tewaza (hand techniques), the body movements often clash with the opponent's movement. Daito-ryu does not include the idea of the unity of the sword, jo and taijutsu. These are changes O-Sensei incorporated during the Iwama period. Many Daito-ryu techniques were not particularly effective against an opponent who had been trained even slightly in martial arts. Although there were a large number of techniques, many of them were not that effective.
Furthermore...

Quote:

Mark Murray wrote: (Post 316831)
Weapons. Ueshiba doing weapons does not look like any koryu I know of or have seen. In fact, people keep trying to find the koryu he took things from. How about we take Ueshiba at his word ... with aiki, we would do it this way. Which leads us straight back to Daito ryu aiki, now in weapons. Courtesy of Sokaku Takeda.

Well I said Kashima Shinto Ryu earlier. This is what AJ says about that particular koryu:
Quote:

A traditional Japanese martial art school with a 500-year history whose sword has a clearly demonstrable influence on the development of the AIKI KEN. This school is a composite system whose curriculum consists of various weapons including the BOKKEN, YARI, NAGINATA, etc. Morihei Ueshiba formally enrolled in this classical school along with Zenzaburo AKAZAWA in May 1937 by signing with blood oaths (KEPPAN). The influence of the Kashima Shinto-ryu sword in aikido can be seen by a comparison of the ichi no tachi sword of this school and the first kumitachi of the AIKI KEN as taught by Morihiro SAITO; the two are virtually identical. Other similar movements can be seen in fragmented form in the sword practices of Saito. The techniques of this school were demonstrated in the AIKI NEWS FRIENDSHIP DEMONSTRATION III in 1987.
http://www.aikidojournal.com/encyclo...hp?entryID=358

Quote:

Mark Murray wrote: (Post 316831)
My comments about awase are that it isn't what made Ueshiba's aikido unique. It was IP/aiki. Awase was for Modern Aikido. :)

Aren't the IP crowd saying that IP/Aiki is not unique to Osensei and can be found in other martial arts?

I also wonder how you define awase. Like koshinage, it is just a word in Japanese that is not tied to a specific way of doing things. I can use awase with the staff in my office when we share the photocopier. People using the term arrange it with other words to show what they mean by it and in the context of Alexander Sensei's articles, I don't think he meant the overly compliant practice that plagues much of modern aikido. Another way of looking at awase is as musubi (connection).

Regards

Carl

Demetrio Cereijo 10-10-2012 10:25 AM

Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI
 
Quote:

Mark Murray wrote: (Post 316801)
6. Koshinage and tanto dori did not come from Morihei Ueshiba.

There are tanto dori in noma dojo pics. You can see irimi nage, kote gaeshi and gokyo there.

oisin bourke 10-10-2012 10:26 AM

Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI
 
What Morihiro Saito stated about Daito ryu is misinformed. Kokyu ho is taught (although it is not called that) When doing a technique correctly, you should NOT clash with Uke (although to an inexperienced observer it may look like that). And as for effectiveness, well , I thought Saito would have a bit more class. That"s just stirring the pot.

sorokod 10-10-2012 10:57 AM

Re: VoE: AWASE - The Principle of AIKI
 
Quote:

Oisin Bourke wrote: (Post 316876)
Kokyu ho is taught (although it is not called that)

How is Kokyu ho called in the style of Daito-ryu you practice?


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