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Old 08-30-2012, 10:25 PM   #126
Andy Kazama
 
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Re: Don’t waste your time practicing AIKIDO

Kevin,
Is it safe to assume when you state, "control the conditions of the fight" you are referring to the Hurticane? I prefer the Kill Face myself, but it would be hard to know which method is superior since you'd never be able to test it in the dojo without a pile of dead/broken students...

Seriously though, I've been blown away at how effective the use of decent body structure while capturing the space can be for dominating the interaction (and we've played with this using empty hand, tanto, bokken, shinai, jo...and hopefully shock-knives sometime soon!)

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Old 09-06-2012, 10:39 PM   #127
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Re: Don’t waste your time practicing AIKIDO

man i don't know why people get upset about these comments, any martial art can be accused of not being complete, equally there are many aikidoka maybe some on thisboard who call out TKD for using high kicks, in the end who cares

find a good teacher train hard and be ral about the short comings of what you do, if you feel too uncomfortable about it do something else or cross train.

Don;t get into wee arguements with people about in ins and outs of fighting or street fighting. if anyone calls me out about the fails of the arts that i study, i can easily agree with them and then we can actually have a conversation. anything that goes along the lines of "well lets see what you can do" is essentially useless and proves nothing. also dropping the names of certain sensei that do something (can't think of one right now) isn't so useful be open and honest with yourself, aikido isn;t the best art in the world, not the worst either, true love is when you see the flaws and love anway
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Old 09-11-2012, 03:14 PM   #128
John Thomas Read
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Re: Don't waste your time practicing AIKIDO

Quote:
Khaled Abdullah wrote: View Post
Hi every 1
Actually the title is an advice from some martial artists who I meet weekly in our dojo. We have many different martial arts sessions going every day in that dojo like karate, taekwando, judo, jeet kune do and kung fu (wing chun). we always talk about martial arts and their effectiveness in real situations like street fighting.

They almost made me desperate and disappointed of Aikido.
Here are some of their quotations:
"Aikido doesn't require fitness so most aikido players are old, fat and not strong enough"
" you can not attack in aikido you just receiving and waiting what the attackers will do"
" many aikido techniques depend on grabbing which is rarely happen in real fights"
" aikido focuses on hands to applying its techniques and ignores the rest of the body, no kicks no punches no jumping"
" aikido is only good for seminars and demonstrations"
" aikido is too traditional, no body use sword in our world today"
" aikido is a philosophy more than a combat way"
etc……

I didn't lose my faith in aikido, but between u and me aren't they have right in some thoughts???

Is aikido useful and effective in real situation and against other martial arts?
It might be helpful if you read Aikido Aikibojitsu and the Structure of Natural Law, in which I take pains to explain the principles that underlie Aikido. Although the book requires some study to fully understand, it has helped many truly appreciate this amazing art form.

It certainly is not the art that is at fault if practitioners do not understand or perform the art correctly. And there is little doubt that Aikido is in some ways a lot harder to understand and do properly than some other martial systems, because at its heart it is based in pure non-resistance. When a practitioner really understands Aikido, though, it is difficult to imagine a more powerful martial system.

Last edited by John Thomas Read : 09-11-2012 at 03:17 PM. Reason: Typo
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Old 09-11-2012, 05:41 PM   #129
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Re: Don't waste your time practicing AIKIDO

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John Thomas Read wrote: View Post
And there is little doubt that Aikido is in some ways a lot harder to understand and do properly than some other martial systems, because at its heart it is based in pure non-resistance.
I'm a little curious about this, so I hope you'll indulge me a little

Gozo Shioda explains several times that Aikido used in actual combat requires punches and kicks (surely that's "resistance"?), and also has the famous "Aikido in a fight is 70% atemi". You also have offsprings such as Yoseikan and Tomiki Aikido.

Isn't it a bit much labelling ALL Aikido as "pure non-resistance"? Certainly I believe there are styles where that is the main goal, but surely that can't be said about all Aikido in general, can it?
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Old 09-11-2012, 05:48 PM   #130
Anthony Loeppert
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Re: Don't waste your time practicing AIKIDO

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Philip Zeplin-Frederiksen wrote: View Post
Gozo Shioda explains several times that Aikido used in actual combat requires punches and kicks (surely that's "resistance"?),
No, punching someone in the face is not the definition of resisting in this context.

Resistance in the context of aikido is meeting force with force, literally.

Always with the internet caveat of, this is my understanding today... I reserve the right to change my mind later.
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Old 09-12-2012, 10:09 AM   #131
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Re: Don’t waste your time practicing AIKIDO

I work hard at trying to reduce proprioceptive responses or triggers out of uke or opponents. I personally think that when people speak of "non-resistance" this is what they mean. you can be resistive, combative, and move forward in a fight, taking up space, slack, and control, while not giving your opponent the ability to orient, fix, or anchor on anything in particular.

For me, the phrase "non-resistance" goes in that bucket of useless, meaningless words that people use that offer little or no help to actually understanding what they are doing or trying to do. I throw "just move your hips", and "move from your hara", and such phrases in that same category. They sound good, everyone goes..yeah...I understand, but few can actually provide you the means to actually understand what is going on or what the phrase means or translate that into a physical practice.

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Old 09-12-2012, 11:18 AM   #132
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Re: Don't waste your time practicing AIKIDO

Quote:
Philip Zeplin-Frederiksen wrote: View Post
I'm a little curious about this, so I hope you'll indulge me a little

Gozo Shioda explains several times that Aikido used in actual combat requires punches and kicks (surely that's "resistance"?), and also has the famous "Aikido in a fight is 70% atemi". You also have offsprings such as Yoseikan and Tomiki Aikido.

Isn't it a bit much labelling ALL Aikido as "pure non-resistance"? Certainly I believe there are styles where that is the main goal, but surely that can't be said about all Aikido in general, can it?
I think there should be some clarification here.

1. Gozo Shioda studied Daito ryu under Morihei Ueshiba. Later, when there was a possibility (along with other Daito ryu students) of coming back "to the fold", so to speak, he chose other options. Morihei was retired, Kisshomaru ran Tokyo. These things must be taken into account.

2. That quote, "Aikido in a fight is 70% atemi", was what Shioda said Morihei Ueshiba told him *about fighting*. Remember that Ueshiba flew into a rage when Ohba actually attacked him for real in a demonstration. Of course, Ueshiba handled Ohba easily, but it was not what Ueshiba wanted to present. There is a difference between the vision of aikido and the realistic application of aikido.

3. Aiki is non-resistance, just not in the manner that Modern Aikido teaches it. NOT saying right, wrong, good, bad. The two versions (Ueshiba's aiki and Modern Aikido) of "non-resistance" are not the same. Ueshiba's aikido can have punches that are non-resistance. In fact, if you watch Ueshiba in his later years, you can still see him deliver atemi to an uke. The founder himself is showing that punches can be non-resistance.

4. Both Modern Aikido and Ueshiba's aikido can be worthy goals in training. At times, those goals are similar while at other times, diametrically opposed. Depends on what you're looking for.
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Old 09-13-2012, 11:13 PM   #133
Lorien Lowe
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Re: Don't waste your time practicing AIKIDO

Quote:
Philip Zeplin-Frederiksen wrote: View Post
I'm a little curious about this, so I hope you'll indulge me a little

Gozo Shioda explains several times that Aikido used in actual combat requires punches and kicks (surely that's "resistance"?), and also has the famous "Aikido in a fight is 70% atemi". You also have offsprings such as Yoseikan and Tomiki Aikido.

Isn't it a bit much labelling ALL Aikido as "pure non-resistance"? Certainly I believe there are styles where that is the main goal, but surely that can't be said about all Aikido in general, can it?
Read Sensei hasn't answered, so I'll fill in a little bit of info: he's the dojo-cho where I train, and we do indeed use a LOT of atemi (we are actually somewhat infamous for accidentally bopping people when we train at other dojos, because we expect uke to move). Sensei will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think a lot of it has to do with intent.
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Old 09-16-2012, 09:49 PM   #134
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Re: Don’t waste your time practicing AIKIDO

We have kicks & punches so that's not correct. Anyhow, they don't know much about it it seems. Doesn't work against other martial arts? I'm not sure we'd compete against them, what would the rules be? Oh, there's the neigh Sayers always, but a good nikkyo or Sanyo should prove to them that Aikido means business!
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Old 09-17-2012, 09:54 AM   #135
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Re: Don’t waste your time practicing AIKIDO

a good reminder that on aikido is excellently useful...

in Articles...
Home > General > "Real" Aikido
by Carol M. Shifflet

http://www.aikiweb.com/general/shifflett1.html

and

http://www.aikidosangenkai.org/blog/...do-body-part-1

hese three Budo "tips" came from Hiroshi Tada in a lecture that he gave in Italy in 2002:

1) An Aikidoka should be able to consistently cut down an opponent with the first blow. This it the true Budo aspect of Aikido. It is precisely because we are confident that we will always able to do this. This confidence gives us two things, our strength and the ability to choose a less deadly outcome, both of which we should have as a prerequisite to our training.


...this explains why I still continue to train in MMA-karate, my "old friend," but now I am concentrating on aikido, my "new friend."

Last edited by Chris Evans : 09-17-2012 at 10:00 AM.

"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
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Old 09-17-2012, 04:49 PM   #136
Nafis Zahir
 
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Re: Don't waste your time practicing AIKIDO

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Khaled Abdullah wrote: View Post
" many aikido techniques depend on grabbing which is rarely happen in real fights"
Whoever said this knows nothing about real fights! All fights end up with someone grabbing someone! Even in boxing matches, when one fighter is tired or gets tired of being hit, he grabs the other guy in order to stop him for a minute or to catch his breath.

I studied Kung Fu for 7 years and know people who studied longer. By them knowing about real attacks, even they wondered how they would fare in a street situation. All arts have there pros and cons. As for attacking, why would a martial artist want to attack someone? That is another stupid comment!

Always remember that many of O'Sensei's students were already very skilled in other arts when they went to become his student! You think about that now.....

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Old 09-17-2012, 05:42 PM   #137
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Re: Don't waste your time practicing AIKIDO

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Nafis Zahir wrote: View Post
Whoever said this knows nothing about real fights! All fights end up with someone grabbing someone! ..
Not "all" real fights, but many: About 60% or so goes to the ground is my guess, not counting sporting fights, and a higher % involves grabbing.

"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
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Old 09-18-2012, 06:42 AM   #138
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Re: Don't waste your time practicing AIKIDO

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Nafis Zahir wrote: View Post
Whoever said this knows nothing about real fights! All fights end up with someone grabbing someone! Even in boxing matches, when one fighter is tired or gets tired of being hit, he grabs the other guy in order to stop him for a minute or to catch his breath.
I would imagine that there is a lot of grabbing in fights, from temporary to longer holds. But, then again, that's just an uneducated guess.

Quote:
Nafis Zahir wrote: View Post
Always remember that many of O'Sensei's students were already very skilled in other arts when they went to become his student! You think about that now.....
And no amount of that skilled martial experiences from those same students helped them, at all. Which is why they became students. Yet, rarely is that given any thought or weight. The thread subject, if we were really talking about Ueshiba's aikido, should really be "Don't waste your time practicing any martial art other than AIKIDO". People who could fight, had backgrounds in judo, jujutsu, kendo, kenjutsu, boxing, karate, etc all seemed to think Takeda, Ueshiba, Sagawa, etc were doing something completely different than what they experienced. Why is it that no one thinks about that?

Instead, people take their Modern Aikido experience, equate it to what Ueshiba was doing, and everyone just thinks that Modern Aikido is another form of same old, same old martial arts. Yet, historically, those same students of Ueshiba who are upheld as a gold standard had all kinds of other martial art backgrounds/experiences and they stated Ueshiba was doing something different. Yet, no one thinks about that?

Quote:
Chris Evans wrote: View Post
Not "all" real fights, but many: About 60% or so goes to the ground is my guess, not counting sporting fights, and a higher % involves grabbing.
I doubt that's accurate. I don't think there have been any studies on it, either. The only study done that I know of was in Law Enforcement and of course, a high percentage go to the ground. UFC/MMA can't be used as an example, because part of their rules allow for ground submissions. By the very nature of the sport, it's going to have ground work in it. The opposite would be boxing, which has no rules allowing ground work, so there is little percentage of boxing going to the ground. Sport is sport. Law enforcement is law enforcement. None of those are going to replicate "real life".

Besides, grabbing someone is not equivalent to going to the ground. Two different subjects.
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Old 09-18-2012, 08:26 PM   #139
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Re: Don't waste your time practicing AIKIDO

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Instead, people take their Modern Aikido experience, equate it to what Ueshiba was doing, and everyone just thinks that Modern Aikido is another form of same old, same old martial arts. Yet, historically, those same students of Ueshiba who are upheld as a gold standard had all kinds of other martial art backgrounds/experiences and they stated Ueshiba was doing something different. Yet, no one thinks about that?
Exactly! But nowadays. most people are not willing to practice the way they did back then. I've seen these kinds of practices before and they appear to be brutal, but they are the real deal! Aikido can be very devastating. I've even seen dojos who don't use atemi. That's not even Aikido.

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Old 09-20-2012, 10:12 AM   #140
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Re: Don't waste your time practicing AIKIDO

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Chris Evans wrote: View Post
Not "all" real fights, but many: About 60% or so goes to the ground is my guess, not counting sporting fights, and a higher % involves grabbing.
Of all fights I've seen in my life, from highschool to my now 28 years of age, I have never seen a fight go to the ground. Sure, I've seen one of the people fall to the ground, and then perhaps followed by kicking or some such, but I have never seen the situations described here, where the fight turns into a ground/grappling game. Sure, it's not like I've seen hundreds of fights in my life, relatively few really, but still, never seen it go to the ground.

I remember reading a thread here somewhere, fairly ancient if I remember correctly, that took statistics from police reports done on it. From what I remember, the number was something like 10% of violent incidents went to the ground. Since I can't seem to find the thread again, though, take that number with a grain of salt.
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Old 09-20-2012, 10:19 AM   #141
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Re: Don't waste your time practicing AIKIDO

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Why is it that no one thinks about that?
It is very unhappy business
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Old 09-20-2012, 10:52 AM   #142
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Re: Don't waste your time practicing AIKIDO

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
For me, the phrase "non-resistance" goes in that bucket of useless, meaningless words that people use that offer little or no help to actually understanding what they are doing or trying to do. I throw "just move your hips", and "move from your hara", and such phrases in that same category. They sound good, everyone goes..yeah...I understand, but few can actually provide you the means to actually understand what is going on or what the phrase means or translate that into a physical practice.
I tend to agree here. Some of the new stuff we are experiencing in aikido requires some lexicon changes. "non-resistence" and "relaxation" are hitting the trash for me.

I think it is reasonable to conclude that many fights are intended to end up on the ground. Sometimes the ground work does not manifest itself before the fight ends, sometimes it does. Sometimes only one person ends up on the ground (this is actually advantageous to the fighter left standing). The simple fact is that it is easier to subdue and control someone on the ground. It is not coincidence that law enforcement control positions involve placing individuals on the ground (yes, they may also use vehicles as a substitute for the ground).

Grappling is both defense against someone skilled in grappling and offense. I think any art which teaches both defense and offense gives its practitioners an advantage in a fight (over being non-skilled). I think you can argue whether one art is better at teaching both offense and defense for given scenarios. I think it is fair to argue that modern aikido is light on our ukewaza; this seems to be a running comment from our sister arts that cross-train with us. I think projecting flaws in its practitioners onto the art as a whole is a poor argument.
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Old 09-20-2012, 10:59 AM   #143
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Quote:
Philip Zeplin-Frederiksen wrote: View Post
Of all fights I've seen in my life, from highschool to my now 28 years of age, I have never seen a fight go to the ground. Sure, I've seen one of the people fall to the ground, and then perhaps followed by kicking or some such, but I have never seen the situations described here, where the fight turns into a ground/grappling game. Sure, it's not like I've seen hundreds of fights in my life, relatively few really, but still, never seen it go to the ground.

I remember reading a thread here somewhere, fairly ancient if I remember correctly, that took statistics from police reports done on it. From what I remember, the number was something like 10% of violent incidents went to the ground. Since I can't seem to find the thread again, though, take that number with a grain of salt.
About half of my real fights went to clinch, a form of grappling. The other half were knocked to the ground.

The statistics I offered came from various sources, but ALL stat's are irrevelant to an individual.

What I do know is that kicking, punching and striking -- atemi -- can be effective until you meet a strong foe...then grappling/seizing will happen: clinches, grabs, take downs, throws, and ground wrestling.

Hone your base, but be exposed to all other aspects of protection because that's FUN and may actually save life.

O-Sensei said atemi is 70% of aikido so I will maintain my karate base, flavored with occasional exposures to boxing, muay Thai kickboxing, & MMA.

MMA adds insights to all traditional arts. For the next few years I intend to concentrate on aikido to sincerely investigate.

OSU

"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
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Old 09-20-2012, 03:11 PM   #144
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Re: Don't waste your time practicing AIKIDO

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Chris Evans wrote: View Post

O-Sensei said atemi is 70% of aikido

OSU
No. Please post where he said that. Otherwise, the only place found so far has been from Shioda writing what Ueshiba told him. Even then, you have it wrong.
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Old 09-20-2012, 03:14 PM   #145
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Re: Don't waste your time practicing AIKIDO

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No. Please post where he said that. Otherwise, the only place found so far has been from Shioda writing what Ueshiba told him. Even then, you have it wrong.
I believe that Saito made a similar citation (with a different percentage), but I don't have it in front of me...

In either case, I don't recall any direct quotations off-hand.

Best,

Chris

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Old 09-20-2012, 03:24 PM   #146
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Re: Don’t waste your time practicing AIKIDO

Indeed, I believe the quote is closer to something like this (please don't make me dig it up in Aikido Shugyo, I made zero notes in that book ._.'): In a real fight, 70% is atemi / in a real fight, 70% of Aikido is atemi. Or something like that. O Sensei certainly didn't state that 70% of Aikido is Atemi.
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Old 09-20-2012, 05:06 PM   #147
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Re: Don't waste your time practicing AIKIDO

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No. Please post where he said that. Otherwise, the only place found so far has been from Shioda writing what Ueshiba told him. Even then, you have it wrong.
Sure, will be fun finding sources and citing for us, but this will take time. The distinction I have read & heard was in aikido application for protection, not in the dojo.

Your declaration, "...Even then, you have it wrong..." reads intrinsically wrong in it self. If you got it right then be positive about it and tell us.

"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
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Old 09-20-2012, 05:11 PM   #148
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Re: Don't waste your time practicing AIKIDO

Quote:
Philip Zeplin-Frederiksen wrote: View Post
Indeed, I believe the quote is closer to something like this (please don't make me dig it up in Aikido Shugyo, I made zero notes in that book ._.'): In a real fight, 70% is atemi / in a real fight, 70% of Aikido is atemi. Or something like that. O Sensei certainly didn't state that 70% of Aikido is Atemi.
Semantics. "...in a real fight, 70% of Aikido is atemi..." was what I was referring to

And that's good enough for me. don't want to over think this.

"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
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Old 12-01-2013, 10:22 PM   #149
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Re: Don’t waste your time practicing AIKIDO

All those guys at your dojo view akido from fight perspective, however a very important part that many miss is with akido the fight is over before it starts, in favour of akidoka.... Now how the fight is ended is completely ur choice. As my sensei said "I give u tools, u choose how, where and when u want to use them".

Also, I doubt those guys will want to fight once their arm is dislocated in 3 places within a matter of seconds
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Old 12-02-2013, 06:16 AM   #150
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Re: Don’t waste your time practicing AIKIDO

This thread is worse than a recycled Christmas letter.
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