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Old 11-24-2010, 04:38 AM   #101
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Quote:
Randall Lim wrote: View Post
However, I do remember reading from somewhere that Judo's founder Dr. Jigoro Kano once mentioned after watching an Aikido demonstration by O'Sensei that THAT was indeed true Budo.

Maybe Kano had been searching for the secret to easily achieve "Ju" in his Judo, but could not until he saw Aikido. Kano in fact invited O'Sensei to join his Kodokan, be did not because O'Sensei had already established his own school.

What do you think of this??
I think accuracy is underrated in today's world.

In October of 1930, Professor Kano paid a special visit to the founder at the temporary Mejiro Dojo. I have heard it said that he even commented, "This is what I call the ideal budo; that is to say, the true and genuine judo." After Professor Kano returned to his Kodokan he told one of his close associates:

To tell the truth I would like to have Ueshiba here at the Kodokan, but since he is a master in his own right, that is quite impossible. As a second choice I would like to send some of our own talent to train with Ueshiba and try to promote an exchange between the two systems.

A few days later he sent Minoru Mochizuki and Jiro Takeda to study under the founder. I have in my possession Professor Kano's very polite letter on the matter

Source: Kisshomaru Ueshiba, Aiki News #59

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Old 11-24-2010, 08:52 AM   #102
Cliff Judge
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Quote:
Eric Joyce wrote: View Post
DR jujutsu & aikijujutsu are not different names for the same thing. They are in fact...different. I think the disconnect here is that what some aikidoka think is aiki is really just ju. Don't take my word for it but research what DR aiki is/looks like and then compare it to aikido's aiki.

You may discover what you are calling aiki isn't what DR calls aiki & is in fact just another extrapolation of the ju principle. Just my 2 cents.
I am not familiar with differences between the syllabi, but my assumption is that the techniques on the jujutsu scroll can be performed with aiki, and that if I were to watch Konda Sensei perform them at an embu, he would be performing them with aiki.

Do I have that wrong?
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Old 11-24-2010, 12:49 PM   #103
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

I have worked with a few exceptional judoka that seem to understand the concept of aiki as well.

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Old 11-24-2010, 06:11 PM   #104
Eric Joyce
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
I am not familiar with differences between the syllabi, but my assumption is that the techniques on the jujutsu scroll can be performed with aiki, and that if I were to watch Konda Sensei perform them at an embu, he would be performing them with aiki.

Do I have that wrong?
Hi Cliff,

Let me be sure to state up front that I am not a DR practitioner, nor do I claim to be an expert in that art (so any who are, please feel free to correct any errors I make), but the basic answer to your question is... yes. DR jujutsu can be done with aiki too (but then it becomes aikijujutsu technically, no?) or it can be done without aiki... but even if done without aiki it's still jujutsu with the "ju" principle in place and active.

Eric Joyce
Otake Han Doshin Ryu Jujutsu
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Old 11-25-2010, 08:45 AM   #105
Flintstone
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

I can play tennis with Aiki. That doesn't turn tennis into aikido...
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Old 11-25-2010, 12:48 PM   #106
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
I can play tennis with Aiki. That doesn't turn tennis into aikido...
Perfectly stated.

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Old 08-21-2012, 07:41 AM   #107
Chris Evans
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Thumbs up Re: Grappling In Aikido

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
I don't know about everyone else, but I am baffled to hear that people often think ground work is only, found only, and devoid in everything else in BJJ/MMA. Maybe it is a generational thing of those past the year 2000 to present who at this time grew up with the popularity of MMA. Groundwork was first discovered right after the first guy who fell to the ground in a fight and fought from there. That probably happen right after the first case of being caught having an affair with another caveman's woman. Or the first caveman stealing food from another.

I am not surprised to see the Judo moves at all. ( I don't practice Judo so I am going off that it was Judo ). Before BJJ and it's popularity there was Judo. I think it is a stable in all Japanese martial arts used in feudal times not to go to the ground which spawns the concept of, to defeat your opponent you must first be successful with kuzushi. You lose in Sumo if you go to the ground first before the other guy. Japanese martial combatants didn't want to go to the ground in all those centuries of war, right?

Spartans, Greeks and Romans had wrestling/groundwork. But, I don't think either of them as soldiers in combat wanted to go to the ground on the battlefield. I think that would be the last place the wanted to go.

BJJ made it popular for many people to think that it was an advantageous position to fight from to go to the ground and do ground work their way. And Kudos to that art for being good at it, in they arena. But it is sad to think that there might be any indication that people will think BJJ pioneered or was the father, mother of all ground work. And that- yes, fights do go to the ground - no other art ever thought and developed ways to fight when on the ground other than BJJ.
ahh, interesting. Thanks.

"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
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Old 08-21-2012, 01:38 PM   #108
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Interesting, but not an opinion shared by those of us in BJJ or Judo.

I'm always happy to discuss grappling and ground work since it is my passion. So please feel free to ask as it seems you have an interest.

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Old 08-22-2012, 01:42 PM   #109
lars beyer
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Interesting, but not an opinion shared by those of us in BJJ or Judo.

I'm always happy to discuss grappling and ground work since it is my passion. So please feel free to ask as it seems you have an interest.
Maybe it´s a stupid question, but do you think suwari waza is usefull in a ground fight ?
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Old 08-22-2012, 02:07 PM   #110
grondahl
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

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Lars Beyer wrote: View Post
Maybe it´s a stupid question, but do you think suwari waza is usefull in a ground fight ?
I´m not Kevin (and not even close to his depth of experience in bjj/sw) but: No.
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Old 08-22-2012, 02:12 PM   #111
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Not useful in the context of the exercise, but the principles of the movement are the same for Guard work. In fact, I was teaching a class last week and demo'd surwari waza and the connection to the guard. The basic movements and use of hips, center of gravity, and posture are the same.

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Old 08-22-2012, 02:14 PM   #112
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Also, if you look at knee on belly and transitioning to it, there are many good principles embodied in suwari waza

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Old 08-22-2012, 02:17 PM   #113
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Sorry for multiple post. If u are dealing with weapons and controlling your opponent on the ground, I think transitioning between levels, yeah good fundamentals in aikido drills and exercises. That said, it ain't fighting and there is so much more that must be considered...but foundational skills...yes much embodied in good waza.

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Old 08-22-2012, 04:12 PM   #114
lars beyer
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Quote:
Peter Gröndahl wrote: View Post
I´m not Kevin (and not even close to his depth of experience in bjj/sw) but: No.
Ups.. sorry.. wrong post, right question..thanks..

Time for me to go to bed.. thought I had asked you the question by mistake..

Last edited by lars beyer : 08-22-2012 at 04:14 PM. Reason: Time to go to bed..
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Old 08-22-2012, 04:18 PM   #115
lars beyer
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Sorry for multiple post. If u are dealing with weapons and controlling your opponent on the ground, I think transitioning between levels, yeah good fundamentals in aikido drills and exercises. That said, it ain't fighting and there is so much more that must be considered...but foundational skills...yes much embodied in good waza.
Thanks, the reason I ask was a prison guard I trained with some years ago, he said he used suwari waza
techniques regularly when he had to subdue violent inmates and the fight went to the ground.
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Old 08-23-2012, 04:45 AM   #116
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Then it sounds like his interpretation of surwari waza was beneficial to him and he found context in the form and practice.

I personally have found much in similarity to what I do in BJJ or combatives foundationally manifested in aikido.

I think this is a very reasonable thing seeing how aikido is supposed to be based on sound foundational principles of basic and correct movements and realizing efficiencies.

However, while that is the case....I think there is a BIG difference between theory and practice.

I think this is why aikido and BJJ can be great complementary practices. My aikido practice places a priority on foundational skills, core, internal strength etc with a low priority on application, tactics, techniques, and proceedures. My BJJ practice places a high priority on tactical success using foundational skills, core, internal strength etc.

The issue is not the practices, but the practicioners that are usually not adequately experienced and jump HUGE gaps in understanding and reach conclusions about application and thus, misrepresent, or mis-apply what they are in reality learning.

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