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salim 07-25-2008 05:08 PM

Grappling In Aikido
 
While browsing youtube for Aikikai clips, I came across this wonderful clip showing ground work that is very similar to Judo/BJJ movements from Sensei Masatomi Ikeda, 7th DAN, Aikikai Hombu. I was very happy to see these techniques expressed and demonstrated. I thought I would share this and would like to hear what others think.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=85Jxmles0Hk

eyrie 07-25-2008 09:55 PM

Re: Grappling In Aikido
 
Similar? Nah... that's just basic judo osae komi waza - in sequence: yoko shiho gatame (side 4-corner hold), kesa gatame (scarf hold), ushiro kesa gatame (rear scarf hold), kami shiho gatame (top 4-corner hold), kata gatame kami shiho gatame (shoulder hold + top 4-corner hold).

Looking at his wikipedia bio, apparently he is (was?) a 4th-dan in judo.

Buck 07-25-2008 11:41 PM

Re: Grappling In Aikido
 
I don't know about everyone else, but I am baffled to hear that people often think ground work is only, found only, and devoid in everything else in BJJ/MMA. Maybe it is a generational thing of those past the year 2000 to present who at this time grew up with the popularity of MMA. Groundwork was first discovered right after the first guy who fell to the ground in a fight and fought from there. That probably happen right after the first case of being caught having an affair with another caveman's woman. Or the first caveman stealing food from another.

I am not surprised to see the Judo moves at all. ( I don't practice Judo so I am going off that it was Judo ). Before BJJ and it's popularity there was Judo. I think it is a stable in all Japanese martial arts used in feudal times not to go to the ground which spawns the concept of, to defeat your opponent you must first be successful with kuzushi. You lose in Sumo if you go to the ground first before the other guy. Japanese martial combatants didn't want to go to the ground in all those centuries of war, right?

Spartans, Greeks and Romans had wrestling/groundwork. But, I don't think either of them as soldiers in combat wanted to go to the ground on the battlefield. I think that would be the last place the wanted to go.

BJJ made it popular for many people to think that it was an advantageous position to fight from to go to the ground and do ground work their way. And Kudos to that art for being good at it, in they arena. But it is sad to think that there might be any indication that people will think BJJ pioneered or was the father, mother of all ground work. And that- yes, fights do go to the ground - no other art ever thought and developed ways to fight when on the ground other than BJJ.

DonMagee 07-26-2008 12:28 AM

Re: Grappling In Aikido
 
It is defiantly judo, but with a judo background I'm not surprised. Of course if I was his coach, I'd have a few critiques of the technique displayed there by both people in the demo. Improper hand placement in a few instances, bent leg during the escape demonstration, and his hips where way up there in the air and not really connected at all.

Sorry, i'm getting ready to teach a judo class tomorrow, so i'm in the tell people what they did wrong mindset.

dalen7 07-26-2008 03:20 AM

Re: Grappling In Aikido
 
[quote=Philip Burgess;212233]I don't know about everyone else, but I am baffled to hear that people often think ground work is only, found only, and devoid in everything else in BJJ/MMA. Maybe it is a generational thing of those past the year 2000 to present who at this time grew up with the popularity of MMA. /QUOTE]

I believe I see your point.

There is a generation now that cries out, "ITs the only art that can take someone bigger than you" - and then trailing off and faintly heard...if at all...is the statement, "if they dont know it to." (which of course everyone and their brother is learning BJJ now, so that aspect and magic of gracie taking down someone bigger is no longer there.)

As well as rules of the game.
Every game has rules - I suppose the only one to really win would be krav maga - if you call killing your opponent winning. Traditional Jui Jitsu maybe with eye gouging, etc. may stand a chance - as well as a Thai boxers elbow to the cranium if there wasnt a rule against that as he was being taken down. (Maybe there isnt a rule about that...but Im sure there is.)

So all in all, BJJ is the new mystical Kungfu of this century.
Yes, it works, but so do the other arts mentioned, within their context.

The rules set forth, in order not to maim and kill people have shown that for a sport - one against one - BJJ (mixed...key word) with other arts, is a fine art indeed.

I know, Im one of those quacky guys who things that your mindset is the best way to stay out of a fight - so in the end it really depends on what your going for.

As far as Judo and BJJ, Judo was taking all the biting edges off of jui jitsu in order to safely practice - and BJJ refined Judo. (but you all know this already, and many of you know it first hand as you train in BJJ and/or Judo.)

Aikido was a big step for me, as I have always been inclined to strike and kick, never was into the wrestling bit - but I have come around somewhat and am interested in the potential combinations of such arts as BJJ and Judo with Aikido.

In fact one of our test requirements is Suwari Sumo..though we have not even really been properly trained in it - its more like a free for all unfortunately. So Im taking clues from watching youtube in how to do escapes, etc. ;)

Peace

dAlen

James Edwards 07-26-2008 04:01 AM

Re: Grappling In Aikido
 
I like Mr. Burgess' point with the ground as being the last place someone wants to go especially on the battlefield. In my opinion ground work seems to only be useful when there is only one other opponent. With multiple opponents (like often assumed in aikido practice) it would be rather silly to end up on the ground.

Another point though. In jujutsu and judo you still have ne waza or ground fighting (I don't do either btw). Clearly then the Japanese still had a concept of ground work in their grappling martial arts. Just like the ancient Spartans, Greeks and Romans. They may just not do it on the battlefield as well.

Anyway thanks for sharing the video. I'm sort of glad I don't do ground techniques. It would still be great to learn, it just doesn't seem to be very dignified to practice :S

eyrie 07-26-2008 05:08 AM

Re: Grappling In Aikido
 
First off, I have to agree with Don. It's definitely Judo. It's the first 4 basic katame waza that you go thru in the sequence demonstrated. I would also agree that it was kinda sloppy. However, to give the benefit of doubt, it may be possible that he was only demonstrating shifting positions rather than the actual technique itself or the finer points of technique. So the hips too high may just be an exaggerated movement for demonstration, but I can't fathom the disconnectedness though.

While Phil has a valid point, my counter argument would be that knowing how to at least escape from the mount or guard is a useful thing, even if you don't want to engage in a full-on groundfight. But sometimes you just don't have a choice, and knowing how to extricate and counter on the ground is just another tool in your toolbox.

Sure it might not look like a very dignified practice, but if you somehow find yourself in a very undignified and compromising position, at least you'll know what to do with the SOB forcing himself on you. ;)

Marc Abrams 07-26-2008 07:33 AM

Re: Grappling In Aikido
 
Don:

As an ex-wrestler, I would love somebody to try and move on top of me like they did in that demo! :cool: Off to Boulder Camp! Everyone have a great week and train safely!

Marc Abrams

raul rodrigo 07-26-2008 07:52 AM

Re: Grappling In Aikido
 
Quote:

Salim Shaw wrote: (Post 212215)
While browsing youtube for Aikikai clips, I came across this wonderful clip showing ground work that is very similar to Judo/BJJ movements from Sensei Masatomi Ikeda, 7th DAN, Aikikai Hombu. I was very happy to see these techniques expressed and demonstrated. I thought I would share this and would like to hear what others think.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=85Jxmles0Hk

Similar to judo? It's the standard Judo katame waza lesson: yoko shiho, kami shiho, ushiro kesa, tate shiho. I was taught the katame waza that way.

salim 07-26-2008 12:16 PM

Re: Grappling In Aikido
 
Quote:

Raul Rodrigo wrote: (Post 212249)
Similar to judo? It's the standard Judo katame waza lesson: yoko shiho, kami shiho, ushiro kesa, tate shiho. I was taught the katame waza that way.

BJJ was derived from earlier version (pre World War II) of Kodokan Judo. There are many variations of Jujutsu schools (ryu). Jujutsu is the father of Judo, Aikido and Brazilian Jujutsu. If you look at a practitioner of BJJ and Kodokan Judo, they are almost the same. The original forms of Kodokan Judo uses a lot of the same techniques.

Ground fighting is important and no person can always insure that they will not go to the ground, better to know how to handle yourself in a situation like this as it arises. This is why you see a 7th dan Aikido sensi, Sensei Masatomi Ikeda teaching this to his students.

CitoMaramba 07-26-2008 02:48 PM

Re: Grappling In Aikido
 
Ikeda Masatomi Sensei used to be the resident Aikikai Shihan in Switzerland (based in Zurich). Unfortunately, some years ago, he suffered a stroke and has returned to Japan.

Buck 07-26-2008 03:00 PM

Re: Grappling In Aikido
 
Hey, I agree with what everyone said, and disagree with what I don't agree with:D. It is sad to see the lost of history, connection and education that is happening in MMA. I am not pointing any fingers or wagging a finger either. I am just observing a loss that I think will doesn't or couldn't occur. I think this is happening the greatest among fans who have little or no training. Those fans who like to watch the fights disconnected from the martial arts background and history. You can't blame new fans as these because the MMA techniques called the, rear necked choke, mount, triangle and with disconnected general martial terms like jujitsu turned into catch all terms for grappling, plus other color language increases the lack of martial arts context. At this point if "Mix(ed) Martial Arts" hadn't become so strongly identified and associated with the MMA fighting venue, it would be better to call it something like Mixed Ring Fighting.

I think history is important. I think connections to origins are important. I feel for those who are not given that information.

Fighting on the ground, I believe in the existence of gravity. And people do lose their balance and find themselves on the ground. It wouldn't hurt to be prepared. But it isn't a place I prefer to be. If I do find myself on the ground I prefer it to be in a ring or on a wrestling mat. The least favorable would be on the street (on the asphalt or concrete in a tight or confined space). If I had too, on the street, it would be on a nice sandy beach on a cool day. It's just that I place my bets on concrete vs. the human body. I hate it when your grabbed by the hair or head and your head is repeatedly smash or stomped into the concrete. The face and skull can only take so much of that. Not that I know that, it wasn't like it happened to me in the 5th grade (not as intensely as an adult experience) proceeding and resulting of a wedgie taking me to the ground.

Kevin Leavitt 07-26-2008 06:48 PM

Re: Grappling In Aikido
 
James Edwards wrote:

Quote:

like Mr. Burgess' point with the ground as being the last place someone wants to go especially on the battlefield. In my opinion ground work seems to only be useful when there is only one other opponent. With multiple opponents (like often assumed in aikido practice) it would be rather silly to end up on the ground.
No doubt it is the last place you want to be in any fight. It is not an advantageous position to fight from in reality. In BJJ sport...yes...the sport rewards ground fighting.

You have to be careful with your logic and reasoning...the logic and reasoning you use is predicated on CHOICE of position. I could demonstrate to you in about 15 minutes on the importance of ground fighting for all close fights that do not involve weapons, (and some that do).

Quote:

Another point though. In jujutsu and judo you still have ne waza or ground fighting (I don't do either btw). Clearly then the Japanese still had a concept of ground work in their grappling martial arts. Just like the ancient Spartans, Greeks and Romans. They may just not do it on the battlefield as well
ne waza is present in ALL good martial arts that consider the full spectrum of the fight. I do aikido, BJJ, and Judo. Doing all three has given me an appreciation of the emphasis that all three methodologies put on the various phases and dynamics of a fight. ne waza exsist in aikido, bjj, and judo. It is just we have "rules" or "paradigms" that cause us to have a different perspective from the training methodology used. Unfortunately, for those that have a limited view of the spectrum and "aliveness" of fighting, we tend to have a skewed view of things.

From looking at the video, it could be BJJ or Judo...the ne waza principles are exactly the same. I do agree with Don though that it is a little loose and based on how he mounts, hand position etc... he would get swept. However, at least he is doing it, and not bad for a old guy.

salim 07-26-2008 07:09 PM

Re: Grappling In Aikido
 
Kevin Leavitt understands the reality of self defense. I really appreciate his perspective.

CitoMaramba 07-26-2008 07:33 PM

Re: Grappling In Aikido
 
O-Sensei doing ne-waza:

salim 07-26-2008 07:43 PM

Re: Grappling In Aikido
 
Quote:

Inocencio Maramba wrote: (Post 212282)
O-Sensei doing ne-waza:

Awesome picture.

Buck 07-26-2008 07:47 PM

Re: Grappling In Aikido
 
:eek: I would dare ask how many Aikidoka under say 30 knew this existed.

dalen7 07-27-2008 01:44 AM

Re: Grappling In Aikido
 
Quote:

Inocencio Maramba wrote: (Post 212282)
O-Sensei doing ne-waza:

Judging by the hair color it was in his younger years.
Do you suppose it was jiu jitsu he was still practicing there.

It all seems to be releated... Judo came from Jiu jitsu - BJJ from Judo - Aikido from Jiu Jitsu...so in the end if you learn BJJ and Aikido your probably leaning what we see O Sensei doing here...namely jiu jitsu.

So the circle is complete, all the things stripped out have become one again...cool. I could use some ground fight - in the same tokken, I like strikes and kicks (Im sure that was part of the whole Jiu Jitsu bit to...) but for now knees and elbows from Thai boxing seem to suffice in time of need. ;)

Peace

dAlen

Kevin Leavitt 07-27-2008 06:41 AM

Re: Grappling In Aikido
 
Ask me how my aikido got better during the 4 years I was stationed in Germany and had no aikido dojo to practice in?

I did BJJ.

Please don't read this as "you should go to BJJ to get better at Aikido".

That is not correct logic. As you will see the 4 to 5 years I spent away from the dojo, there were several aikidoka that grew PAST me in aikido while I was doing BJJ.

BJJ is not a efficient or fast way to learn the principles of aikido, if you want to be proficient at the curriculum of aikido.

I do think that Judo or BJJ provide a wonderful base of work to refine the learning of dynamics and principles we are trying to learn.

If I were to do it over again, I'd spend my childhood years learning Judo, then Mid Teens to early 20's doing BJJ, then move into aikido in my 30's.

Over generalization...yes...but that is how i'd probably do it if I could today.

CitoMaramba 07-27-2008 08:21 AM

Re: Grappling In Aikido
 
The picture I posted was taken in 1936, as part of the Noma Dojo series of photographs. According this article by Fumiaki Shishida:
Quote:

in 1928, Ueshiba changed the name of his martial arts school to Aioi-ryu Aiki Bujutsu. He again renamed his school Aiki-Budo or Ko-Budo, and finally settled with aikido in 1942.
Reading Nidai Doshu's writings about the early years of his father reveals that O-Sensei trained in Kito-ryu (one of the antecedent arts of judo) and judo itself, prior to training in Daito-Ryu. Words in parenthesis are mine..
From: The Life of O-Sensei in Aikido Online
Quote:

...In 1901 when he was 18, the Founder took the first steps in the direction of achieving his driving ambition. He had come to Tokyo because he wanted to be a great merchant. He spent busy days working on a wholesale street, and studied jujutsu of the Kito Ryu at night. ...
(after service in the army, O-Sensei was asked to re-enlist and enter the military academy, but he turned down the offer.)
...Although he refused to enter the academy, he did not want to return to an ordinary life. Therefore the vigorous and spirited young man became a community leader in his village of Tanabe and managed the activities of his district. Kiyoichi Takagi, then just a third grade holder in judo, visited the Founder's hometown. The Founder put together a group at the Young Men's Club of the town and had Takagi teach. Takagi later became a judo 9th dan holder. The Founder himself studied judo with great diligence.
IMHO, I think ne-waza should also be included in training in the event that the conflict goes to the ground. At least the historical record shows that O-Sensei did train in ne-waza.

dalen7 07-27-2008 08:47 AM

Re: Grappling In Aikido
 
Quote:

Inocencio Maramba wrote: (Post 212292)
IMHO, I think ne-waza should also be included in training in the event that the conflict goes to the ground. At least the historical record shows that O-Sensei did train in ne-waza.

Im all for it now - but it seems Judo is stand up throw down and thats it. (You throw down the opponent you score a point, no?)

So I suppose its BJJ or something along those lines to compliment things.

Seeing we dont have any BJJ around here, suppose I will learn what I can from watching on youtube and practicing. (Who knows, maybe I will get Roy Deans "BJJ Blue Belt" dvd.)

- not to mention still the combo of Thai boxing in there.
As mentioned, it seems the 3 together would in affect give you jiu jitsu to some extent no?

Thanks for that pic...

Peace

dAlen

lifeafter2am 07-27-2008 09:06 AM

Re: Grappling In Aikido
 
I agree with a lot of what has been said here. Although, ideally, I don't want to go to the ground (and I train hard to not be taken down), I have trained in BJJ just in case I am taken down. Being that a fight is a very fluid situation, I think you should be trained for anything that may happen. No reason to not be well-rounded and at least take a few classes here and there in other styles, just in case.

Whether it should be taught in Aikido classes is not up to me, but I remember when taking TKD that we used to have a "guest" instructor a few times a month that would come in and teach other martial arts; my first experience with Aikido actually. The same thing occurred in my BJJ class, we used to have a guest Judo instructor come in once in a while. In fairness though these were both 5 day a week training schedules, which is not the case in most Aikido schools. If you are only already training 2 days a week in a style, I can't imagine having that replaced a few days a month with another style. I tend to pick the schools that train more. :)

The problem with it being taught in Aikido dojos has to do with how the instructor was trained. They can't teach it if they weren't taught it. So it is kind of a trickle down effect, and then you get, what I think you all call, aiki-bunny? :p

CitoMaramba 07-27-2008 09:55 AM

Re: Grappling In Aikido
 
Quote:

Dalen Johnson wrote: (Post 212293)
Im all for it now - but it seems Judo is stand up throw down and thats it. (You throw down the opponent you score a point, no?)

Actually there are other ways to score ippon, not just throwing, according to the International Judo Federation Rules:
Quote:

20. Ippon
The Referee shall announce Ippon when in his opinion the applied technique corresponds to the following criteria:
a) When a contestant with control throws the other contestant largely on his back with considerable force and speed.

b) When a contestant holds with Osaekomi-waza the other contestant, who is unable to get away for 25 seconds after the announcement of Osaekomi.

c) When a contestant gives up by tapping twice or more with his hand or foot or says Maitta (I give up!) generally as a result of Osaekomi-waza, Shime-waza or Kansetsu-waza.

d) When a contestant is incapacitated by the effect of a Shime-waza or Kansetsu-waza.
A memorable ippon via osaekomi was when Anton Geesink pinned Akio Kaminaga with kesa gatame in the finals of the openweight division during the Olympic debut of Judo in 1964.

Quote:

Thanks for that pic...
You're welcome.

Cito

salim 07-27-2008 10:00 AM

Re: Grappling In Aikido
 
Roy Dean shows a pretty good example of Aikido and ground techniques and it's application.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=R7GfQdB9a8Y&feature=related

http://youtube.com/watch?v=SivWAcPlzFg&feature=related

Bryan Sproles 07-31-2008 02:11 AM

Re: Grappling In Aikido
 
I believe learning to be able to defend yourself on the ground is an important skill - but as my Jujitsu sensei always told us, the ground is the LAST place on earth you want to be in a real fight.

If there are multiple attackers, even if you're very good on the ground, you're at a huge disadvantage and stand to be injured very badly....or worse.

Learn enough to get back to your feet as quickly as you can, or if that's not possible, maybe try a close quarters nikkyo or ikkyo if the chance presents itself (suwari-waza *was* the original "ground fighting", after all... :))

-Bryan


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