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Old 07-09-2012, 10:33 AM   #51
Belt_Up
Dojo: Dynamic Aikido Nocquet
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Re: Shouldn't we be responsible?

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i just think that aikido groups shouldn't be able to utilise the name unless authorised by a higher body
This would be a nightmare. Given the revisionism and general hijinks we've seen when organisations don't have an iron grasp of this martial art, I dread to think what would happen if a 'higher body' was so empowered. You cannot empower a group to uphold individual integrity.

Last edited by Belt_Up : 07-09-2012 at 10:37 AM.
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Old 07-09-2012, 11:34 AM   #52
ramenboy
Dojo: midwest aikido center
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Re: Shouldn't we be responsible?

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Dave Gallagher wrote: View Post
Chris, The first lesson is to learn the difference between budo and bujutsu. If you want to learn "martial skills" then you should seek a bujutsu ryu.
The path of Aikido budo is something much different than mere martial technique.
A few of us had a nice conversation w seki sensei one summer, and he said I think basically the same thing.

We have to define for ourselves, what it is we want. Jutsu or do... Self preservation, or self improvement

practice hard
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Old 07-09-2012, 11:51 AM   #53
Chris Li
 
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Re: Shouldn't we be responsible?

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Jerome Cervantes wrote: View Post
A few of us had a nice conversation w seki sensei one summer, and he said I think basically the same thing.

We have to define for ourselves, what it is we want. Jutsu or do... Self preservation, or self improvement
Seki, for all that I loved training with him, has never been much of a thinker.

"Jutsu" doesn't mean self preservation, just as "do" doesn't mean self improvement.

Best,

Chris

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Old 07-09-2012, 01:01 PM   #54
ramenboy
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Re: Shouldn't we be responsible?

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Seki, for all that I loved training with him, has never been much of a thinker.

"Jutsu" doesn't mean self preservation, just as "do" doesn't mean self improvement.

Best,

Chris
How's that, Chris?

How would you explain the meanings of jutsu and do?

I mean, sure, literally translated that's not the meanings, but in the context of 'martial' art, etc, what other definitions are there

Last edited by ramenboy : 07-09-2012 at 01:07 PM.

practice hard
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Old 07-09-2012, 01:25 PM   #55
Chris Li
 
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Re: Shouldn't we be responsible?

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Jerome Cervantes wrote: View Post
How's that, Chris?

How would you explain the meanings of jutsu and do?

I mean, sure, literally translated that's not the meanings, but in the context of 'martial' art, etc, what other definitions are there
That's just it - the dichotomy is kind of a modern misunderstanding that was exacerbated by Donn Draegger, and that some Japanese have latched onto. It's really not that clear or profound a division of definitions.

Best,

Chris

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Old 07-09-2012, 01:38 PM   #56
ramenboy
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Re: Shouldn't we be responsible?

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
That's just it - the dichotomy is kind of a modern misunderstanding that was exacerbated by Donn Draegger, and that some Japanese have latched onto. It's really not that clear or profound a division of definitions.

Best,

Chris
THATS NOT THE ANSWER I WAS LOOKING FOR!!!!!!

Maybe it' was a way for us westerners to try to understand. Just like there's no real western meaning for ki...

practice hard
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Old 07-09-2012, 01:55 PM   #57
lbb
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Re: Shouldn't we be responsible?

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Jerome Cervantes wrote: View Post
THATS NOT THE ANSWER I WAS LOOKING FOR!!!!!!
Nice.
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Old 07-09-2012, 01:58 PM   #58
ramenboy
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Re: Shouldn't we be responsible?

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Nice.

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Old 07-09-2012, 04:33 PM   #59
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Shouldn't we be responsible?

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Chris Knight wrote: View Post
hi kevin, nothing whatsoever - i just think that aikido groups shouldn't be able to utilise the name unless authorised by a higher body when they post videos which are absolutely, in no way related to our art, hopefully....

hope the arms improving and you're back in action soon!

chris
Thanks for asking Chris, today was my first day back on the mat, teaching though and very easy. Will have to train conservatively for a while.

In theory, of course I agree that it would be nice if there was such a thing as Aikido (tm).

However, looking at a few of the other post, I have to say, I agree and think we are actually better off without the (tm). I think overall the hybridization, and freedom to interpret has probably paid us more dividends than determent.

If there was one singular organization that got to decide what was and what was ot aikido....think about it....

Someone or a board would have to quantify that somehow. We'd have test that would be standardized. Only select people would be able to promote. It would get very expensive. Interpretation or creativity would be very limited or limited to the few guys that sat on the top of the very steep paramid.

Take a look at the downfall of judo and judo organizations in the US. Lots of in fighting, they constantly change the rules for various reasons, sometimes for safety, but lately IMO it is to keep Jiu Jitsu players, Sambo, and Grapplers from being successful and co-opting Judo and changing it. Can't blame them really, it is at risk if you are the status quo.

Think about the guys like Dan Harden. People that decided to spend time with him would be ex-communicated and stripped of the ability to use the Aikido(TM) label. Student bodies would be split. The focus would be completely wrong. We'd be focusing on organizational politics and climbing the ladder vice actually improving what we are doing.

I'd say most, if not all of the major guys here on Aikiweb would be stripped of the ability to use the AIkido(TM).

So then what?

We'd have to appeal to some sort of national or state board to start a new art or derivative. The National Body for Martial Arts would be very hesitant to improve another Aiki like organization since the 200,000 plus Aikido(TM) body would be very powerful and lobby to prevent us. That and if they did that, there would be a landslide of everyone wanting to start there own new art cause they didn't agree with the establishment that purports mediocrity at best as it is most profitable that way.

I think education is the best way. We can inform people as best we can about how to make good decisions and navigate the maze. I got my start and what would be considered a "McDojo". I knew nothing about martial arts and simply took what was offered at the health club. As I became more and more educated, and my thirst grew deeper, I sought out more and more information and trained with others. I'd say it took me a good 15 years of training before I felt I understood training and what constituted good training for myself.

Yeah, it is frustrated and comical to see some of the garbage that is out there.

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Old 07-09-2012, 11:26 PM   #60
davoravo
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Re: Shouldn't we be responsible?

I don't really think this (the OP) is an issue. Most teachers repeatedly state that there are better ways to learn to fight. My first teacher taught that "this shouldn't be teaching you how to hurt someone but makIng you realize how vulnerable and easily hurt you would be in a fight."

Equally there is plenty of stuff on the Internet criticizing aikido and lots of information that "if you want to learn to fight you have to get out and fight" and aikido training obviously doesnt involve fighting. I think most aikidoka are like me, far too pretty to have our faces smacked evey week in training. All in all there is plenty of information available to make an informed choice.

Yes, there are some deluded students but I think they are looking for Ki magic instead of hard work. hopefully they realize their own aikido is not good enough to use in a fight. They are probably also very unlikely to get into a fight. Seems those folk who seek out real rough and tumble training get into a lot more fights than us fluffy bunnies.

As a slight tangent to your question, but still on topic - Do people think martial arts instructors should or "have a duty" ensure that their students can defend themselves, irrespective of their main art.? ie should self defense techniques be taught as a regular break out from class?

I used to practice elbow strikes, groin knee strikes and groin kicks (oh, and some punches) on a heavy bag when I first started aikido. In terms of "techniques" there is probably not much more that needs to be added (eye gouges, judo chop to neck - oh, that's shomen uchi). Get an old fairbairn or Sykes manual and you should be good to go!

But of course how you train is slightly different to what you train (a list of techniques), which is a big part of what you are saying.

(oh, look, I have answered my own question. :-) )

The most important part of any self defense course is protecting yourself by avoiding trouble and dangerous environments. This is certainly an area I think every Martial arts instructor should consider teaching.

Last edited by davoravo : 07-09-2012 at 11:31 PM.

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