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Old 05-27-2012, 12:59 PM   #26
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
Historical Emergent holarchy -
In the Old Testament - book of Judges.
No king, just a bunch of tribal shepherds. But during a crisis, a skilled person emerges with the tools to navigate the. Crisis.

WWII - German SS troops knew in the field who should be in charge. It was the guy who emerged and proved his skills within the context of battle.

Modern - in new age community, heirRchy is replaced by holarchy through round table (Tribal) councils. Wisdom university, for instance, Jim Garrison gave up the presidency and now shares it equally between 3 people. The larger council sits with them but the student body sits in a circle surrounding them all during their annual leadership course. Students also participate in most levels of curriculum development and doctoral review.

Hierarchy (encyclopedia britanica's old style of printing annual volumes is replaced by wikipedia and group consciousness emerges with accurate data va collaboration.
Hello Chris,
Not just in the old testament; in the most parts of Celtic and Germanic Europe a leader was chosen by the people. One of the most famous kings of the Celtic people here in the Auvergne being of course Vercingetourix, who managed to defeat Ceasar in the first battle and had to surrender in the following one. Vercingetourix was chosen to lead as they needed a general leader at that time. But also within the Celtic community itself a leader or rather spokesman would be chosen when the need arose.

In older society people shared a basic wisdom - what O Sensei called joshiki no kanyo or in English, common sense.

So I think you may have a good point. And I like your example of wikipedia. The internet could be a wonderful way of sharing knowledge and maybe grow towards common wisdom.

But you need a willingness to share and a willingness to learn. Perhaps this works fine with wikipedia. And I sure wish it would work in Aikido, as I think that the founder pointed to a world of reconciliation and peace where we could exchange knowledge and grow with one another. But when I read the threads on Aiki Web I do not get the impression that many people are interested in that. I have seen it on other fora on other subjects as well. It stagnates as people only want to voice their own opinion and are too often not genuinely interested in what others do or have to tell without judging it.

Perhaps in the future this will change?

Greetings from the Auvergne,
Tom
 
Old 05-27-2012, 01:16 PM   #27
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
I disagree, the idea that Morihei Ueshiba originated a new purpose to martial arts training is, in fact, the most common view in conventional Aikido. That makes it a reasonable interpretation when it's restated without qualification.

Best,

Chris
No, that is not how argumentation works.

You are just using the statement to press forward your own opinion on an issue that is not being discussed.

It is not a real response on what was actually said before. That makes it invalid. It has nothing to do with agreeing with it or not.

Tom
 
Old 05-27-2012, 01:28 PM   #28
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
Historical Emergent holarchy -
In the Old Testament - book of Judges.
No king, just a bunch of tribal shepherds. But during a crisis, a skilled person emerges with the tools to navigate the. Crisis.

WWII - German SS troops knew in the field who should be in charge. It was the guy who emerged and proved his skills within the context of battle.

Modern - in new age community, heirRchy is replaced by holarchy through round table (Tribal) councils. Wisdom university, for instance, Jim Garrison gave up the presidency and now shares it equally between 3 people. The larger council sits with them but the student body sits in a circle surrounding them all during their annual leadership course. Students also participate in most levels of curriculum development and doctoral review.

Hierarchy (encyclopedia britanica's old style of printing annual volumes is replaced by wikipedia and group consciousness emerges with accurate data va collaboration.
Thanks.
So back to the original question of such 1) being based on love. 2)replacing what you desribe as hierarchical dogmas.

Oh, and you also have the word wisdom there too in the first.

So I would say that any structure based on wisdom is obviously best. I would qualify this and say wisdom comes from love and goodness so then such structures would be love based.

The key is plain and simple love and wisdom. With it then maybe most systems would be good.

You could have such as a 'dictatorship' type of system of which kingdoms were also, yet if run on the principles of love and wisdom would be great. The same goes for democracies too. So for me it's not so much the system it's the nonsense attached to them.

Group doesn't necessarily equal more wise.

I don't quite believe your S.S. type view or the others given as standard procedure but I can see how that would be best in such circumstances in the field. If it has a wise man in charge then such people would be given the relevant positions of Authority yes. If not then the usual command structure chaos.

So systems which help the wise float to the top like cream are good whatever they are.

That's my view.

Peace. G.
 
Old 05-27-2012, 01:56 PM   #29
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
You can't use or have ever demonstrated IP/IS and by your own writing reveal you know nothing at all about it. I find it curious to then read you making a comparison of something you know nothing about

Morihei Ueshiba continuously quoted the Internal arts training concepts. He then went on to continuously demonstrate- in the same fashion many internal arts did- with push tests.

a. You cannot discuss them, so you ridicule us (as paranoid?)
b. You can do nothing of this (so you discredit it's worth)

Many of us can read what he said and do what he did to one degree or another. You...cannot. Hence, the movement to now get away from the Ueshiba standard (that so few of you can even approach) and try to redefine his work as something that you CAN do, at any cost.

You, and many Shihan and advanced teachers have disqualified yourself from any discussion of Ueshiba by your own hand. As time moves on, more and more of you are going to be tested when you appear in public-well, that's already happening anyway.
The smart teachers will do one of two things; Avoid and/or reduce public exposure or...............change.
As One Shihan recently wrote; we can stand on the street corner and shout for all he cared. That's fair and that's fine, as long as he doesn't touch hands with us. More and more of us will continue to use Ueshiba's training model and there will be nothing you can do but to stare in wonder....just as they did with Ueshiba
Only one of us is correct. And only one of us can and has proven it...over and over.

I openly state that those who continue to discount this work are going to slip away into the mist. The value of Ueshiba's work stood against challenge then and it does now. Whats left....avoid challenge.

There's really nothing to say when you cannot withstand it. As I said in another thread; people still want to debate when thousands of you have consistently and continuously failed in person.
What's left to debate?
The nature of your failure?
The quality of your misunderstanding?
How little effort it takes to show you?
What?

Thankfully his work continues to unite many who are thrilled to finally get it...after decades in the wrong direction.
Dan
By my own writing Dan I have met people who use forms of internal so therefor I must know something about it. It has existed for a long time you know. Your particular brand.....no. I have tasted baked beans but not some brands of. So I can compare lentils to baked beans. Hope that clears your confusion.

I neither discredit, ridicule or say 'you' are paranoid

What I do many others call internal but it is me who says I don't call it such.

I choose to call it spiritual or universal.

I'm glad your 'model' is working for you and others.

What are you on about 'push tests'? Like it's something new. Shows how little you know about me.

Oh well, believe what you wish but tell me about me? Ha, ha. Good jokes.

Peace. G.
 
Old 05-27-2012, 02:37 PM   #30
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Tom and Graham,

I think that. Love-based system can influence emergent holarchy.
Ants, slime mold and computer intelligence works on emergence according to Steven Johnson's book: Emergence: The Connected Lives of Ants, Brains, Cities, and Software
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/068486875X

While some ants go in one direction looking for food, others go on another. Some paths are dead ended, others become path finders for new food sources. The whole colony is fed by the collective energies of the tribe. Inter-being (Thich Nhat Han's term) is present in the activity of the colony.

I do not know whether one scout party argues with another. But both scout parties do have the agency to search where they will.

For humans to do the same, we first likely will need to parse the difference between faith and belief. I suspect we all have faith that Morehei Ueahiba, for instance, was onto a great realization of love and attempted to embody this spirit of love in his art. But faith and belief are very different things.

The faith I mention is quite primal and is near impossible (like the Tao) to describe in words. Belief, on the other hand, is about ideas on how this faith manifests in real time. Beliefs become dogmas. Dogmas differentiate and often isolate us from "inter-being". We use Dogmas to judge one another as to our correctness and from there, hierarchy is built. We shame and ridicule those who believe differently. We divide into camps and generate more heat than light when talking about where to look for the food.

Iconoclast that I am, I refuse to be in any camp. But I demand of myself the faith to build unity through love like jalahudin Rumi's stiry of the moth that flies into the flame.

Like that story, surrender is necessary for living emergence to arise. This is the "emerging" spiritual mindset that I see taking root around the world. And this is where I look for an internal power that trumps all previous practices. So, I choose not to judge another's experience even if they judge mine. That way, I try to be the change I want to see in this world. This world still has many fear-based folks who seek control rather than surrender. Thus, I suspect we will have some sort of inter-being Chrysalis where we all feel our very joints and marrow melts down within our cocoon (self-limiting judgments). But I will continue to long for the 100th monkey to do his part in being the change. His will not be like mine. But he has the freedom and agency to scout as he wishes for food.

Eventually we will all be in awe of the emergence. No heroes. Just "inter-being" and food for all...

Just a few thoughts from my own spiritual journey.
 
Old 05-27-2012, 02:55 PM   #31
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Nice Chris. I like your view. I have a similar view on faith too.

Interbeing, that's a cute way of putting it by the Author. I understand the concept and have a video on how there is communication between plants and tres etc via what can only be described as like an internet through the ground. All these things are fascinating.

I would differentiate here in this fashion. Communication. Colonies of ants and bees etc acting 'as one' so to speak have an intricate system of communication and so it's still very physical and programmed. Thus they don't or can't generally escape that specific program. Although it's very awe inspiring it is also nonetheless robotic.

Thus it could be 'natural' emergence within the framework of the program though.

Love and spiritual are outside, beyond this type of emergence. I have never met a wise ant or bee.

Some trees on the other hand, well that's another story....

Thus Aikido to me is potentially the wisest of all martial arts. The one which has the techniques and ways of harmonious movement to improve the 'opponent'.

Peace.G.
 
Old 05-27-2012, 04:01 PM   #32
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Johnson's book has offered a great paradigm. Perhaps one of the most eye opening books I have read on spirituality. And i do not think he was intentionally writing about spirituality. Ha!!!!!

To me. He provides a powerful key to understanding the Tao.
 
Old 05-27-2012, 04:24 PM   #33
hughrbeyer
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
But you need a willingness to share and a willingness to learn. Perhaps this works fine with wikipedia. And I sure wish it would work in Aikido, as I think that the founder pointed to a world of reconciliation and peace where we could exchange knowledge and grow with one another. But when I read the threads on Aiki Web I do not get the impression that many people are interested in that. I have seen it on other fora on other subjects as well. It stagnates as people only want to voice their own opinion and are too often not genuinely interested in what others do or have to tell without judging it.
I'm wondering what you think this ideal world would look like, especially when you're dealing with a body skill like Aikido. I say I do X and it's effective; you say no, do Y, it's more effective. It takes a few posts back and forth to clarify what we mean, but then we're at an impasse.

What does it even mean to not judge in this situation? To be human is to judge. That's what made us human. It's also what got us kicked out of the Garden, of course... but if we want to be better martial artists (or better scientists, or better writers, or better hamburger-flippers, if it comes to that) we have to judge.

So we judge by meeting and testing our ideas. We don't judge the people, we test the ideas empirically. For me, anyway, that's what this forum is all about--find out who are the people and what are the ideas that I'll want to engage with.

And it seems to me that AikiWeb is working pretty well for that. Seems to me that there was a whole bunch of noise a while back about the IS stuff, and a bunch of people called it horse pucky, and over time a bunch of them met with Dan... and changed their minds. (In fact, given how generally cantankerous people are, it's amazing to me how few people have met Dan (or Mike, or Howard, or the others promoting these skills) and haven't changed their minds.) That is the way a discussion is supposed to work when it's working well.

If a few folks have gotten their feelings hurt along the way, that's too bad--but this is budo, people. The consequences of an invalid training paradigm involve much more serious injuries than to feelings. To hold back on truth on the mat is to lie, and it's a dangerous lie. If you let me think I'm doing something that works when it doesn't you haven't just lied to me, you've put me at risk.

And that's my spirituality in budo. Love, yeah, but it's a love like Jesus' love. You know how much time he spent calling people scorpions, vipers, dogs, and hypocrites? In training, we meet the truth like we meet the mat (<smack!>). How we learn to deal with that is a measure of who we are as people.
 
Old 05-27-2012, 04:46 PM   #34
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Some great philosophy, thank you, folks! I think the highest ideal in humanity is love (I like to make the tough statements ). It is through love that we can most easily, perhaps, reconcile misgivings we acquire throughout our interactions.
Quote:
We divide into camps and generate more heat than light when talking about where to look for the food.
I really like the way you put this, Chris! I grew up having a wide variety of friends who rarely liked each other. In any interaction (as much as I can muster), I begin with the idea of connecting with the person and finding commonality. This is the only way I know for people with very different views to come together. It's harder for some than others...and it's a shame that our past experiences always seem so ready to color the present. I guess our brains learn and remember for a reason though. The trick, as I see it, is to actively seek to build bridges rather than burn them. This is the essence of O Sensei's spiritual message as I've come to believe it to be. Recently I read an article which described Doshu's view of the different groups within Aikido as being necessary and good. Some folks are loath to suggest almost purely philosophical Aikido can still be Aikido, while others are loath to suggest almost purely combative Aikido can still be Aikido. Doshu seemed to suggest what's important is that we're working on something to show others; to leave it to them to determine the things most relevant to them and their part of the very big reality we all share.
I have to work hard sometimes in order to keep from being a very cynical person. I'm one of those idealists who became somewhat jaded and started to hate people because they got shit on my rose-colored glasses. On the other hand, I'm typically a very nice person to everyone I meet because I automatically see them as valuable to me, directly and indirectly. This kind of cognitive dissonance typifies the human condition for me. We're social, loving, animals who have powerfully violent, anti-social urges hard-wired into us. It takes work; to promote in others to do that work, we have to find common ground. If we're not seeking that common ground, either actively or passively, then we're not able to progress spiritually...in my opinion, of course.
Abstractly, this work is idealized by the concepts of shugyo and keiko; of personal discipline/study/work and mixing it with others'. Simply getting on the mat will not necessarily produce results, but the effort must be there to build up ourselves and the world around us or entropy wins by default. Obviously martial arts aren't the only place to work on this kind of thing, let alone Aikido, but it is one medium of practice which can work very well for some people.

Quote:
Hugh wrote:
The consequences of an invalid training paradigm involve much more serious injuries than to feelings.
Well, not necessarily. And when it comes to spiritual/philosophical values, no one gets to determine what's valid except the individual doing the practice. Where people value physical potency very highly, they tend to gravitate towards those who express that trait. However, for those who see that as secondary, even for a budo practice, I don't think it make their practice invalid. Less valid, perhaps, but that's a personal choice subject to a series of personal judgements/values...and not one discussion will ever solve. It's still a matter of bringing a horse to water...and anything that smacks of forcing will cause the horse to resist.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 05-27-2012 at 04:59 PM.

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 05-27-2012, 05:51 PM   #35
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
Johnson's book has offered a great paradigm. Perhaps one of the most eye opening books I have read on spirituality. And i do not think he was intentionally writing about spirituality. Ha!!!!!

To me. He provides a powerful key to understanding the Tao.
Excellent. Jonathon Livingstone Seagull for me..

Peace.G.
 
Old 05-27-2012, 06:21 PM   #36
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

O'Sensei did keep giving out a message of peace, a world message, a spiritual message.

So when we see the principles of it and can just as well apply them to life and living only then can we say we understand 'him'.

Until then, just carry on training and learning. Many paths to the top of Mount Fuji.

An ideal world, now there's a heady concept. But is it really? It's probably very simple to envisage.

A thriving place of harmony amongst men. It's really not so hard to do.

Some people live in harmony with those around them and life. That shows it is possible and hidden there in plain sight.

Some groups of people and groups of friends do too. Some communities do too. These people must therefor be the masters in plain sight. Learn from these hidden masters, now there's a start.

Peace.G.
 
Old 05-27-2012, 06:29 PM   #37
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
However, for those who see that as secondary, even for a budo practice, I don't think it make their practice invalid. Less valid, perhaps, but that's a personal choice subject to a series of personal judgements/values...and not one discussion will ever solve. It's still a matter of bringing a horse to water...and anything that smacks of forcing will cause the horse to resist.
I want to clarify I meant "less valid" in terms of comparative physical potency. I learned something about how to deal with brute force from skiing. I might even say it was an effective way of training for it. If I were to, many people might interpret that as suggesting it matches their sense of what "effective" entails. Instead of telling me why I'm wrong or how my view is invalid, I think folks would do better to simply offer their sense of things and move on. We cannot escape the mind's task of judging the world around us; it does that whether we're aware of it or not, but we can show each other that we respect the fact that we cannot see into each other's world, even if in fact we're 100% correct about our assumptions.
When people speak of "not judging each other," they're addressing this "need" people have for walking their own path (though often taking it too literally, in my opinion). People have the right to be wrong and to find the truth in their own way. This is something I think everyone ought respect; while actively doing their best to express their own opinions as strongly as they can.
I believe O Sensei left it to the individual to go after whatever they valued. I think it's clear his first mission was to raise himself up to be a worthy actor on the stage of the universe; next was his household; neighborhood; etc. I presume he expected us all to do our best and that in sincerely doing so we would eventually stumble upon profound truths. Internal Power training is, in my opinion, the highest form of physical training, but not the highest form of training. People can live without it and still be said to be working on potent (i.e. enough for their goals) "budo."
...And most of us, in my strictest opinion, cannot claim understanding of budo because most of us have never been through a battlefield. We're all working on an approximation and hoping that when called upon for the precise thing itself, our approximation is close enough.
...or something like that. I'm tired and want a cookie.
I feel like trying again later when I'm feeling more lucid, but here's an attempt for our consideration. Any feedback would be appreciate.
Take care,
Matt

Last edited by mathewjgano : 05-27-2012 at 06:32 PM.

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 05-27-2012, 06:48 PM   #38
graham christian
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Here's one for you Matthew, after your tea and biscuits. Only cowards fight.

It's an interesting view to contemplate. But please, don't choke on the biscuit.

Peace.G.
 
Old 05-27-2012, 08:00 PM   #39
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
Tom and Graham,

I think that. Love-based system can influence emergent holarchy.
Ants, slime mold and computer intelligence works on emergence according to Steven Johnson's book: Emergence: The Connected Lives of Ants, Brains, Cities, and Software
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/068486875X

While some ants go in one direction looking for food, others go on another. Some paths are dead ended, others become path finders for new food sources. The whole colony is fed by the collective energies of the tribe. Inter-being (Thich Nhat Han's term) is present in the activity of the colony.

I do not know whether one scout party argues with another. But both scout parties do have the agency to search where they will.

For humans to do the same, we first likely will need to parse the difference between faith and belief. I suspect we all have faith that Morehei Ueahiba, for instance, was onto a great realization of love and attempted to embody this spirit of love in his art. But faith and belief are very different things.

The faith I mention is quite primal and is near impossible (like the Tao) to describe in words. Belief, on the other hand, is about ideas on how this faith manifests in real time. Beliefs become dogmas. Dogmas differentiate and often isolate us from "inter-being". We use Dogmas to judge one another as to our correctness and from there, hierarchy is built. We shame and ridicule those who believe differently. We divide into camps and generate more heat than light when talking about where to look for the food.

Iconoclast that I am, I refuse to be in any camp. But I demand of myself the faith to build unity through love like jalahudin Rumi's stiry of the moth that flies into the flame.

Like that story, surrender is necessary for living emergence to arise. This is the "emerging" spiritual mindset that I see taking root around the world. And this is where I look for an internal power that trumps all previous practices. So, I choose not to judge another's experience even if they judge mine. That way, I try to be the change I want to see in this world. This world still has many fear-based folks who seek control rather than surrender. Thus, I suspect we will have some sort of inter-being Chrysalis where we all feel our very joints and marrow melts down within our cocoon (self-limiting judgments). But I will continue to long for the 100th monkey to do his part in being the change. His will not be like mine. But he has the freedom and agency to scout as he wishes for food.

Eventually we will all be in awe of the emergence. No heroes. Just "inter-being" and food for all...

Just a few thoughts from my own spiritual journey.
Bonjour Chris,

Thank you for your inspiring thoughts. There is a lot there that I agree with and you mentioned also a few things that are worth reflecting further on.

I don't know the book that you mentioned, but will certainly look into that. I am a bit more familiar with ants; they are an intriguing species that create alliances between different ant-groups, even if they do not belong to the same kind of ants. When I walk through the forest, I can go from one nest to the other and there is something magic about how they are all connected and recognize each other.

I have been reading the books and listening to the lectures of Thich Nath Hanh for more then three decades by now and he remains an ongoing source of inspiration. Plum village is not far from here. He has quite a following here in France.

Your difference between faith and belief seems similar to Plato's difference between dogma and sophia (wisdom). According to Plato people tend to stay in their cave discussing the shadows of reality (dogmas) instead of going towards the light of wisdom. Once wisdom has been reached there is no real point anymore in discussing dogma. A similar idea can be found in Buddhism and Taoism.
And although I sometimes seem to get caught up in pointless discussions, I always try to keep this idea in mind.

Not judging is essential for any connection that we make. Problem is that we live in a judgmental society. Even Thich Nath Hanh once lost a sangha because of internal political debates about control and dogmatic judgments. I see that too much in Aikido as well. I have always tried to stay away from Aikido politics and have kept an open mind to all Aikido styles. I have come across a lot of serious practicioners of Aikido who, like you, have come to really inspiring thoughts and skills. But I have also come across quite a few who shout their opinion in your face, but lack genuine depth of knowledge.

The story of the 100th monkey has been proven to be wrong. Sadly it does not work like that.

I do see an emerging spiritual mindset around me, but I am still a bit cautious about whether this will last and grow. But I like your approach; to be the change that you want see in this world. Will keep that in mind!
Hope to read more about your spiritual journey in the future.
Thank you!

Kind regards,
Tom
 
Old 05-27-2012, 09:00 PM   #40
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Hi Graham,
In the sense that brave people find themselves within a "fight" and might still be described as not-fighting, I tend to agree. Otherwis, I would say many a brave person fights, too; indeed it is the brave who "fight" against injustice or who might "fight" the swift currents of a river to help someone.
Also, thank you Tom and Chris for your exchange. I've really enjoyed reading it.
Merci, et bon chance tout le monde! May we all learn to speak each others' languages a bit better.
Au revoir,
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
 
Old 05-27-2012, 09:09 PM   #41
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
Bonjour Chris,

Thank you for your inspiring thoughts. There is a lot there that I agree with and you mentioned also a few things that are worth reflecting further on.

I don't know the book that you mentioned, but will certainly look into that. I am a bit more familiar with ants; they are an intriguing species that create alliances between different ant-groups, even if they do not belong to the same kind of ants. When I walk through the forest, I can go from one nest to the other and there is something magic about how they are all connected and recognize each other.

I have been reading the books and listening to the lectures of Thich Nath Hanh for more then three decades by now and he remains an ongoing source of inspiration. Plum village is not far from here. He has quite a following here in France.

Your difference between faith and belief seems similar to Plato's difference between dogma and sophia (wisdom). According to Plato people tend to stay in their cave discussing the shadows of reality (dogmas) instead of going towards the light of wisdom. Once wisdom has been reached there is no real point anymore in discussing dogma. A similar idea can be found in Buddhism and Taoism.
And although I sometimes seem to get caught up in pointless discussions, I always try to keep this idea in mind.

Not judging is essential for any connection that we make. Problem is that we live in a judgmental society. Even Thich Nath Hanh once lost a sangha because of internal political debates about control and dogmatic judgments. I see that too much in Aikido as well. I have always tried to stay away from Aikido politics and have kept an open mind to all Aikido styles. I have come across a lot of serious practicioners of Aikido who, like you, have come to really inspiring thoughts and skills. But I have also come across quite a few who shout their opinion in your face, but lack genuine depth of knowledge.

The story of the 100th monkey has been proven to be wrong. Sadly it does not work like that.

I do see an emerging spiritual mindset around me, but I am still a bit cautious about whether this will last and grow. But I like your approach; to be the change that you want see in this world. Will keep that in mind!
Hope to read more about your spiritual journey in the future.
Thank you!

Kind regards,
Tom
Thank you for the kind words. Oddly enought, my sangha name is "Compassionate Heart of service" in my TNH practice. I also happen to be a Christian Theologian and would introduce you to the word (Irenics). Perhaps you already know it, but I love its sound. It is the opposite of polemics (focussing upon what we cannot agree on).

Christianity is full of beliefs.... to a fault. Indeed, in Harvey Cox's (Harvard Seminary Professor) 2009 book on "The Future of faith, he called the last 2,000 years an age of belief (rather than faith). It is there that I got the differences in definition.

For me, Rumi cuts to the quick. "Sell your Cleverness and buy Bewilderment" he says (Coleman barks translation). The more we surrender our hearts to eachother, the more we will find commonality. And even when we find ourselves stuck in "attachment" (must have this; cannot have that) we can make friends with it and watch it arise and go away without even judging our judgment. he he he.

Would we could do this with eachother as well.

Namaste and Puha

Chris
 
Old 05-27-2012, 09:30 PM   #42
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
I'm wondering what you think this ideal world would look like, especially when you're dealing with a body skill like Aikido. I say I do X and it's effective; you say no, do Y, it's more effective. It takes a few posts back and forth to clarify what we mean, but then we're at an impasse.

What does it even mean to not judge in this situation? To be human is to judge. That's what made us human. It's also what got us kicked out of the Garden, of course... but if we want to be better martial artists (or better scientists, or better writers, or better hamburger-flippers, if it comes to that) we have to judge.

So we judge by meeting and testing our ideas. We don't judge the people, we test the ideas empirically. For me, anyway, that's what this forum is all about--find out who are the people and what are the ideas that I'll want to engage with.

And it seems to me that AikiWeb is working pretty well for that. Seems to me that there was a whole bunch of noise a while back about the IS stuff, and a bunch of people called it horse pucky, and over time a bunch of them met with Dan... and changed their minds. (In fact, given how generally cantankerous people are, it's amazing to me how few people have met Dan (or Mike, or Howard, or the others promoting these skills) and haven't changed their minds.) That is the way a discussion is supposed to work when it's working well.

If a few folks have gotten their feelings hurt along the way, that's too bad--but this is budo, people. The consequences of an invalid training paradigm involve much more serious injuries than to feelings. To hold back on truth on the mat is to lie, and it's a dangerous lie. If you let me think I'm doing something that works when it doesn't you haven't just lied to me, you've put me at risk.

And that's my spirituality in budo. Love, yeah, but it's a love like Jesus' love. You know how much time he spent calling people scorpions, vipers, dogs, and hypocrites? In training, we meet the truth like we meet the mat (<smack!>). How we learn to deal with that is a measure of who we are as people.
Sure, to judge is human. To err is human. To kill is human. To make war is human. To step into dogshit is human. To make irrational decisions is human. To completely destroy wildlife is human. To pollute the air is human. To be cruel to animals is human. To deny food and water to children in third world countries is human.

So shall we just sit back and enjoy the ride? Or is it humanly possible to reflect on these things and wonder if we like this, if this is the world that we really want? And if not, to reflect if we have the strength and the courage and the wisdom to do something about this?

There are alternatives that many of the people in this world already use on a daily basis. To explain in it in Buddhist terms; you should be able to discriminate between edible plants and poisonous plants, you should be able to see the difference between a bucket as a whole and a bucket with a hole in it. you should be able to see the difference between an elephant and a fish. You should be able to discriminate Mozart from Bach. But there is no need to say; Mozart got it right and Bach got it wrong or worse then that Mozart was perfect and Bach was completely useless. There is no point in saying; a rose is a real flower, but a daisy is not. That is what is meant by judging. If you would pursue an academic study you would come across the same principle. If a person has been brought to a hospital with a wound as a result of a fight, the surgeon is not going to ask whether this man is the criminal or the victim. He operates without judgement.

I used to teach Aikido to professional dancers. The choreographers that I knew were not as such interested in the skill of the dancers, as they were all trained and skilled dancers. They did not judge their dancers, but if they saw a difference they would try to fit that in the choreography.
This is the reason why in traditional Aikido dojo you often will see a crooked beam on the kamiza wall. It represents a saying by Buddha about not judging.

To be a better artist in whatever discipline you like, you do not need to judge. Quite the opposite, by judging you show a limitation of perspective.

You cannot test ideas or skills via the internet. At best, if there is film available (youtube, dvd) you can get an impression of what someone is doing and you can try to compare it to what you are doing. I see on Aiki web a lot of conclusions that are based on bias, hidden agenda's, fixed opinions and a lack of reading with care what someone is trying to express. And worse then that; people draw conclusions about the other person's skills and experience without ever having met that person. So I can not agree with you that Aiki web is working pretty well.

I am not a christian. But I do not think that what you say here about Jezus represents the christian faith sincerely.

As for your description of your training; for me spirituality in Budo means something completely different. It does not involve hurting or damaging other people, be it physical or any other way.

Tom
 
Old 05-28-2012, 02:07 AM   #43
Chris Li
 
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
No, that is not how argumentation works.

You are just using the statement to press forward your own opinion on an issue that is not being discussed.

It is not a real response on what was actually said before. That makes it invalid. It has nothing to do with agreeing with it or not.

Tom
Well, I think that it was being discussed. Hence my response that I disagree.

Anyway, isn't just about everyone pushing forward their opinion? What's the problem with that?

Best,

Chris

 
Old 05-28-2012, 02:10 AM   #44
Chris Li
 
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
By my own writing Dan I have met people who use forms of internal so therefor I must know something about it. It has existed for a long time you know. Your particular brand.....no. I have tasted baked beans but not some brands of. So I can compare lentils to baked beans. Hope that clears your confusion.
Well if you say it, then it must be true.

As I said, you have no way to know whether we're talking about baked beans or not, since you've never eaten the thing in question.

Best,

Chris

 
Old 05-28-2012, 03:28 AM   #45
Alec Corper
 
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

I offer this in the spirit of learning mindfulness, not as an attack. The fact that 10 people agree upon something and derive feelings of unity and harmony from their agreement does not mean that what they agree upon is objectively correct. So long as they do not or cannot test the subject of their agreement their harmony is a product of assumption. However, those good feelings may be more important to them than discovering if the agreement is in fact based on reality, in which case it is preferable to maintain the joint illusion and remain happy.

I test everything I can since I am deeply familiar with the human tendency to cling to that which makes them feel good about what they hold onto. Spirituality is the safest ground of all since there is no test which we can all agree to, At least when someone designs a 1 winged plane we can all watch the crash.
'A scholar was being rowed across a river and by way of conversation asked the boatman," my dear chap, have you ever learnt to read?" The boatman replied, "no." To which the scholar, "well then you have wasted half your life." Sometime later a storm began and the boatman asked, have you ever learnt to swim?" and the scholar shook his head. the boatman then said, "well you just lost all yours".

If your temper rises withdraw your hand, if your hand rises withdraw your temper.
 
Old 05-28-2012, 05:06 AM   #46
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Well, I think that it was being discussed. Hence my response that I disagree.

Anyway, isn't just about everyone pushing forward their opinion? What's the problem with that?

Best,

Chris
If your only aim is to push your own opinion and you do not have an openness to listen to other people and exchange ideas in a valid way then there is no dialogue.
Contributors of this forum become then mere solopsists and the Aiki web forum nothing but an advertising agency.

Tom
 
Old 05-28-2012, 06:18 AM   #47
Tom Verhoeven
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Alec Corper wrote: View Post
I offer this in the spirit of learning mindfulness, not as an attack. The fact that 10 people agree upon something and derive feelings of unity and harmony from their agreement does not mean that what they agree upon is objectively correct. So long as they do not or cannot test the subject of their agreement their harmony is a product of assumption. However, those good feelings may be more important to them than discovering if the agreement is in fact based on reality, in which case it is preferable to maintain the joint illusion and remain happy.

I test everything I can since I am deeply familiar with the human tendency to cling to that which makes them feel good about what they hold onto. Spirituality is the safest ground of all since there is no test which we can all agree to, At least when someone designs a 1 winged plane we can all watch the crash.
'A scholar was being rowed across a river and by way of conversation asked the boatman," my dear chap, have you ever learnt to read?" The boatman replied, "no." To which the scholar, "well then you have wasted half your life." Sometime later a storm began and the boatman asked, have you ever learnt to swim?" and the scholar shook his head. the boatman then said, "well you just lost all yours".
Hi Alec,
It has been a few years when we last met in Leiden. Hope life is treating you well and that your dojo is flourishing.

I think people get often confused about the idea of spirituality. The word may mean different things depending on where you are coming from.
In Budo spirituality means you make an effort in sharpening and polishing the mind or the spirit. It has got nothing to do with feelings of unity or agreement whatsoever. It has got nothing to do with opinions either. Testing one opinion against another opinion will not teach you much.
And as real Budo is an internal process and not so much an external process, the aim I would say should rather be to find a subjective correctness then an objective correctness. You cannot see what is going on inside, so how would you be able to say when someone is doing it correct or not? People tend to look at the results and think that that is an objective way of judging if it is correct or not. But serious students of Budo are very aware of the fact that they can influence the results in many different ways. In archery I shoot three arrows easily into the center of the target. The onlooker will see the result and conclude that it was a good shot. But my teacher can see, due to decades of practice, that I am only aiming for a result. It is up to me to change and to sharpen/polish the mind/spirit and start real practice. To see how with each shot your own mind is trying to fool you or to disrupt your practice is the real test. And will take up the most time while learning the art of archery.
But not everyone will get to that level of practice. Or are even interested, they are just happy with form, with winning or with a bit of horsing around.
Things go haywire when people think that form or results or horsing around is the ultimate aim of Budo. Or that style is important. It leads to discussions and debates that are not very interesting or inspiring.

Greetings from the Auvergne,

Tom
 
Old 05-28-2012, 06:34 AM   #48
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Tom Verhoeven wrote: View Post
If your only aim is to push your own opinion and you do not have an openness to listen to other people and exchange ideas in a valid way then there is no dialogue.
Contributors of this forum become then mere solopsists and the Aiki web forum nothing but an advertising agency.

Tom
But you missed the point of opinion on Spiritual and IP...having to produce results.
I could say "What is the value of thousands of people all agreeing on a thing.....then meeting someone who blows that up and they have to start over?"
I guess we can all agree.....they all agree...they were wrong.

Many organizations, frequently circle the wagons and shoot arrows...just before they give up, but in this case there are no enemies.
Dan
 
Old 05-28-2012, 06:41 AM   #49
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Well if you say it, then it must be true.

As I said, you have no way to know whether we're talking about baked beans or not, since you've never eaten the thing in question.

Best,

Chris
The same could be said for you and others that make assumptions all the time. How do you know how good Graham is or how he feels and his understanding of anything when you have not met him?

 
Old 05-28-2012, 06:43 AM   #50
Alec Corper
 
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Re: Spiritual and i/p

Hi Tom,
Glad to hear life is treating you well.

It is obvious from your reply that I have not communicated very well, perhaps that is always the case here. I understand the way you define spirituality in Budo very well, but how do you know when you have become "spiritual?" . Inevitably, unless you declare yourself to be a spiritual guide (or others do it for you), you interact with others who confirm or dismiss what you believe are your accomplishments. This is exactly what happens here on Aikiweb. Rings of sympathy are created amongst people who believe,or imagine, that others are agreeing with what they say, which means likeminded folk are confirming your reality.
However, you say that your teacher can see a deeper reality in you when you practice kyudo. That, in spite of your best effort to be " spiritual", you are in fact involving in winning and ego games. Is your teacher then not closer to an objective measuring of the " correct" state? Do you not accept that he either sees deeper than you, or is capable of retaining a state of being that you intellectually comprehend but cannot occupy? Is he not testing you at that moment, not in the form of winning and losing, but in the form of seeking accuracy in the internal state of your being?
I would like to think that the gradual deepening of subjective knowledge of self leads to the objective understanding that I do not understand very much at all. Not to do so leads to statements full of self declared truths which cannot be refuted since they are sincere, however inaccurate they may be. There was a recent post about enlightenment, I guess if someone is enlightened this does not apply.
I believe that I am wiser now than I was 20 years ago, at least i hope so ;-), back then when I was 30 I thought I was wise. Of course now that I am older i see how inflated I was. Now I know better , I hope in 20 more years, if I'm still around I will be saying the same thing. If not, I am finished, I have arrived, If yes then my current truths are wrong (inaccurate and subjective) and I should treat my own certainties with suspicion.

If your temper rises withdraw your hand, if your hand rises withdraw your temper.
 

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