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graham christian 05-24-2012 07:44 PM

Spiritual and i/p
 
Time for a differentiation, or should I say my differentiation between Aikido and i/p.

I notice lately it's become more 'regular' to use the word 'aiki' to represent i/p as if it is the natural aiki of aikido. This I believe is far from the case and thus the purpose of this thread.

I/P is given as tracing from chinese this and that and seen as being 'hidden' from the western or even those outside certain inner circles. This may well be the case in a lot of instances but the paranoia that goes with it I find amusing. Firstly because I think it doesn't apply to Ueshibas Aikido and secondly because it is possible for most in this day and age, if they are dedicated enough to go and find a good teacher of such things.

So what's the big secret? Nothing.

Back to Aikido. Here's the thing, Ueshiba's Aikido was not to do with internal power as per I/P or I/S. It was different. In fact I would say that i/p is more for health, body health.

I bet for some of you this sounds like quite a statement. Well when compared to the potential of Aikido and true aiki then that's what it looks like to me. In fact I will attempt to put it into a perspective which you may or may not agree with but nonetheless will see a perspective you may not have seen before.

Purpose. You would have to look at purpose. After the war Ueshiba gave a new purpose and said this path could be trodden through this martial art called Aikido. It was given as a spiritual path which would lead to enlightenment and bring peace and harmony to the world. A spiritual path.

Thus he told Hikitsuchi he was changing everything and that the truth was budo is love. Of course many didn't understand him and still today many don't but those on various spiritual paths do as it makes total sense to them and they may not even do Aikido.

Meanwhile, back inside the martial arts world for those induces by physical power and combat and neat tricks then they can but look elsewhere for these tricks to make their martial art more effective. Well, these tricks have been around for centuries and come under I/P.

The word 'tricks' is used here show the difference.

I/P and such, used in various chinese and and other arts can of course include the principles of yin and yang and 'chi' pathways in the body, and a whole load of stuff including connection to earth energy type things and thus is all well and good. Well, all of this is inherent in old texts to do with health too because that's where it has it's main purpose. That's actually what it's all about;

Now during his life being well into the martial arts and well connected Ueshiba no doubt learned all these things and to me no doubt mastered a lot of them before even the war, before Aikido.

So as far as Aikido goes I would say that it has a purpose which is spiritual, a path, but could include I/P as a minor project, one of many, but nowhere near the purpose. You'll get a healthier body, you'll learn neat tricks, you could go on to great things, but until the spiritual side is mastered then it's not the same Aikido.

I could even go as far as to say i/p is to do with the 'nature, or even 'mother nature' aspect of Aikido as with such things as tai chi etc. A connection with nature, from which your body comes and from which it will return. So lot's to learn there and harmonize with and that of itself will make you feel at least more spiritual or peep through the door at least. So I would call that the Earth side of Aikido which is universal and to do with Heaven and Earth, not just Earth.

Ueshibas Aiki was thus all embrasive, transcendant of those past i/p type things. I guarantee many of the top martial artists around knew of these things yet when meeting him found he did something completely different and thus wanted to learn. Different thus equals not like that which they had come across before and that includes all the i/p type things they had encountered in their lives.

To me it's obvious, it's hidden in plain sight. Why go backwards?

Peace.G.

Chris Li 05-24-2012 10:32 PM

Re: Spiritual and i/p
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 309561)
Time for a differentiation, or should I say my differentiation between Aikido and i/p.

I notice lately it's become more 'regular' to use the word 'aiki' to represent i/p as if it is the natural aiki of aikido. This I believe is far from the case and thus the purpose of this thread.

I/P is given as tracing from chinese this and that and seen as being 'hidden' from the western or even those outside certain inner circles. This may well be the case in a lot of instances but the paranoia that goes with it I find amusing. Firstly because I think it doesn't apply to Ueshibas Aikido and secondly because it is possible for most in this day and age, if they are dedicated enough to go and find a good teacher of such things.

So what's the big secret? Nothing.

Back to Aikido. Here's the thing, Ueshiba's Aikido was not to do with internal power as per I/P or I/S. It was different. In fact I would say that i/p is more for health, body health.

Well, there's still a lot of restricted information, although things have opened up quite a bit compared to past years. Also, there really aren't all that many people who are both willing and able to teach this stuff, so it's not quite that easy.

In any case, I see that you have some pretty firm opinions about what people are doing even though you haven't, despite multiple offers and invitations, ever come out to feel it.

Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 309561)
Purpose. You would have to look at purpose. After the war Ueshiba gave a new purpose and said this path could be trodden through this martial art called Aikido. It was given as a spiritual path which would lead to enlightenment and bring peace and harmony to the world. A spiritual path.

I touched on it a little bit here and again here, but the idea that Morihei Ueshiba originated a new purpose to martial training involving peace and enlightenment is demonstrably false.

That paradigm has existed for thousands of years, in many lands.

Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 309561)

To me it's obvious, it's hidden in plain sight. Why go backwards?

Peace.G.

No one going backwards around here...I thought that we were being accused of being too forwards. :freaky: :D :freaky:

Best,

Chris

mrlizard123 05-25-2012 04:10 AM

Re: Spiritual and i/p
 
Thus the next talking past each other debate threatens to begin.

Thus I would suggest people use the search facility and view all the replies to this this thread already repeatedly available on the forum without the need to revisit them.

Thus saving a rehashing of the same old "debate" in which the acceptance of evidence/faith on the various sides is measured differently, incompatible and unlikely to be resolved.

Thusly it was, is and ever will be thus.

lbb 05-25-2012 07:11 AM

Re: Spiritual and i/p
 
Quote:

Rich Hobbs wrote: (Post 309578)
Thus the next talking past each other debate threatens to begin.

Indeed, but (to make this at least somewhat on topic for the forum in which it was posted) as many great spiritual teachers in many traditions have taught us, in their various ways, We Have Other Choices.

I particularly like George Ledyard's contribution to this thread. I think he provides a clear, non-obfuscated definition of aiki that can be understood in practical terms, without rainbows and unicorns, but also without being exclusively bound to fascia or myofascial whatsis. He also provides a sensible comparison with how O-Sensei used the term, which I think is particularly useful not as some kind of aikido-fundamentalist proscriptive definition, but because I can see where the two views are talking about the same thing, just with a different focus or POV (sort of like looking at the same tree from slightly different angles).

It would do this forum a world of good if all those who so love to engage in the talking-past were to think about their need to declare, "You are NOT looking at MY tree, and your tree is not the One True Tree!" No doubt there are people in these debates who are myopically gazing at a streetlight thinking it's a tree, but this is where the analogy breaks down -- you don't have an objective view of whatever they're looking at that would enable you to say, "No, sorry, that's not what I'm looking at, and that is not a tree." You can only see it through their eyes.

And, finally, Ledyard Sensei grapples with the misappropriation of "aiki" to mean "whether an action or an attitude brings things together or pushes them apart" with realism and humor. If enough people start using the word "burrito" to refer to any kind of food wrapped up in any kind of flatbread, then your choice is to accept that that is the common usage (not necessarily to agree with it, but to accept that that is how others use the word "burrito"), or be perpetually disappointed and enraged when you order a "burrito" and get something that doesn't fit your definition. At the very least, accepting the reality of this other definition allows you to seek out those who are using your definition, and to get your burrito (or your aiki) served in the manner that you prefer.

Chris Knight 05-25-2012 07:50 AM

Re: Spiritual and i/p
 
mmm i like burritos

Chris Li 05-25-2012 09:17 AM

Re: Spiritual and i/p
 
Quote:

Mary Malmros wrote: (Post 309586)

I particularly like George Ledyard's contribution to this thread. I think he provides a clear, non-obfuscated definition of aiki that can be understood in practical terms, without rainbows and unicorns, but also without being exclusively bound to fascia or myofascial whatsis. He also provides a sensible comparison with how O-Sensei used the term, which I think is particularly useful not as some kind of aikido-fundamentalist proscriptive definition, but because I can see where the two views are talking about the same thing, just with a different focus or POV (sort of like looking at the same tree from slightly different angles).

Well, I, for one, have never proposed a definition "exclusively bound to fascia or myofascial whatsis". But I do think that O-Sensei's technical methods are entwined with his philosophy - so much so that you can't get one without the other without it becoming something quite different.

For example, the term "Take Musu Aiki" that's cited in the linked post. The definition given isn't wrong - but it's not complete either, and that will change the implications.

Best,

Chris

graham christian 05-25-2012 01:59 PM

Re: Spiritual and i/p
 
Quote:

Christopher Li wrote: (Post 309571)
Well, there's still a lot of restricted information, although things have opened up quite a bit compared to past years. Also, there really aren't all that many people who are both willing and able to teach this stuff, so it's not quite that easy.

In any case, I see that you have some pretty firm opinions about what people are doing even though you haven't, despite multiple offers and invitations, ever come out to feel it.

I touched on it a little bit here and again here, but the idea that Morihei Ueshiba originated a new purpose to martial training involving peace and enlightenment is demonstrably false.

That paradigm has existed for thousands of years, in many lands.

No one going backwards around here...I thought that we were being accused of being too forwards. :freaky: :D :freaky:

Best,

Chris

Haven't come out to meet it? Please...... Despite multiple offers?........Good joke.

There's only been one person I've said no to. I said on numerous occasions I've 'felt' plenty of internal stuff over the years. In fact I'm surprised how it appears many of you hadn't. So don't bother with the get out and meet type of responses.

As it happens I have met one person who has trained once or twice with Dan for example. The only difference with that is the method of teaching and learning and practicing it is it not?

Many different aspects, many different people with different internal skills, none equalled anything like what I call Aikido.

I've been more impressed with some who have never done any martial art actually or some who have been confused by it and asked what to do. That's my experience.

I use the same type of response to those who come saying or asking about a martial expert or an I/P expert or a spiritual master of some kind or other, it makes no difference to me. I merely ask 'what good do they do with it in life?' 'Who do they help?' That's all. For to me if they don't use it in that way then I'm not interested or impressed and see it merely as a waste of time. As you may imagine I meet many, many spiritual people who can ask all kinds of strange questions and 'what ifs'. I still say the same. If a 'Kami' appeared in front of me and performed all kinds of miraculous feats I still wouldn't be impressed for I would merely ask the same question. If you're not improving self, not helping others and having fun as well then why are you here is my view. Simples........

Peace.G.

Chris Li 05-25-2012 02:20 PM

Re: Spiritual and i/p
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 309623)
Haven't come out to meet it? Please...... Despite multiple offers?........Good joke.

There's only been one person I've said no to. I said on numerous occasions I've 'felt' plenty of internal stuff over the years. In fact I'm surprised how it appears many of you hadn't. So don't bother with the get out and meet type of responses.

As it happens I have met one person who has trained once or twice with Dan for example. The only difference with that is the method of teaching and learning and practicing it is it not?.

Nope, not at all, that's why IHTBF. I would hesitate to judge Dan or anybody else by meeting someone who trained with them twice. I've been working with Dan since 2010, and I make very sure that people don't judge what he does or can do by the little that I'm able to show.

Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 309623)
I use the same type of response to those who come saying or asking about a martial expert or an I/P expert or a spiritual master of some kind or other, it makes no difference to me. I merely ask 'what good do they do with it in life?' 'Who do they help?' That's all. For to me if they don't use it in that way then I'm not interested or impressed and see it merely as a waste of time.

Which is fine for you - but doesn't put you in any position to make technical statements about something that you've never experienced.

Best,

Chris

graham christian 05-25-2012 05:32 PM

Re: Spiritual and i/p
 
Quote:

Christopher Li wrote: (Post 309624)
Nope, not at all, that's why IHTBF. I would hesitate to judge Dan or anybody else by meeting someone who trained with them twice. I've been working with Dan since 2010, and I make very sure that people don't judge what he does or can do by the little that I'm able to show.

Which is fine for you - but doesn't put you in any position to make technical statements about something that you've never experienced.

Best,

Chris


I don't Judge Dan, which you imply. I don't give technical anything with relation to what you have done for x years or anyone elses technical ability on here for that matter.

I am in a position however to judge, based on my experience, given as such, thank you very much. I can judge and give my opinion on all the various 'types' I have encountered.

I have seen nowhere written that what one individual does as I/P is any different and in fact that the difference is in it's transmission. It is not of itself something brand new is it? It is internal power isn't it? Therefore I have come across it before and I am quite aware of it's potential. I do have friends who have trained in such things for many years too.

It is not me who likes to think I need to get out more or that unless I meet certain prescribed people then I don't know. Therefor it is me who smiles at such ways of thinking and inside believe it is those who say such things that need to get out more for it is they who think they can judge me so inaccurately.

Maybe it's cultural, meaning I don't think you Americans especially realize just how many people a person born and raised in London and involved in martial arts for many years has met. In fact couldn't avoid meeting. In the U.S. with it's great wide spaces and distances maybe a lot of you don't meet many folks from other arts etc. and so getting out is a big thing to you. It always seemed like normal procedure to me and my friends and part of the adventure.

Even in Aikido alone do you realize just how many clubs there are around here? Yet I often here on posts people asking does anyone know of any Aikido place in this or that area over there. You virtually fall over them over here, well around London and the outskirts anyway. Tai chi, kung fu, you name it. Less than five minutes from me now is the only real Shaolin school in the whole of England and a great bunch they are too.

So I don't judge a person based on someone I met trained a couple of times with him or her. I don't judge anyone personally I have not met. A person who did a bit of 'x' can tell me the type of thing they did and practice and I with my experience can get quite a good idea about the type of thing thank you.

I say 'it's all good.' I also say many things are not Aikido. I'm very clear. You can say my views are wrong if you like, that's all good too, but all this you cant judge and you must feel so and so is to me superfluous nonsense.

I could say 'you must feel the spiritual Aiki or true kokyu or such' but prefer to keep it under my hat ha, ha. But seriously I would never do so because to me it's a stupid thing to say, I don't care how many think it's some kind of stable must. I wouldn't want any of you to feel what I do. Why would I?

How would that help you? It wouldn't help you one iota. As I've said before I'm not into dilettantes. People who want to dip their toes in and have something to talk about. So the fact someone felt someone is again to me minor. They learned nothing really for themselves. It's good for gossip.

Nah, give me someone who says this is what I do and this is what I experience and this is what I learned from and can now do. Many things, even how I do, etc. but do being the operative word.

That's my preference. I wouldn't lower myself to discuss someones charachter tell them what they can or cant judge based on their experience or imply I know how good or bad they are at the thing they do. That's not budo in my book or even acceptable in real life in your local bar or shop or anywhere.

Here's a good question for you: Does I/P result in the persons communication being less negative? Does it result in being more stable, more certain and positive and at the same time averse to putting others down and gossiping and ridiculing others ways.? In other words, does it lead to better behaviour as like O'Sensei for instance? True spiritual disciplines tend to do this.

Peace.G.

Chris Li 05-25-2012 06:47 PM

Re: Spiritual and i/p
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 309628)
I don't Judge Dan, which you imply. I don't give technical anything with relation to what you have done for x years or anyone elses technical ability on here for that matter.

I am in a position however to judge, based on my experience, given as such, thank you very much. I can judge and give my opinion on all the various 'types' I have encountered.

Just my point, you don't have any experience here, and you haven't encountered the one guy that most of us are talking about when these things come up.

Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 309628)

Maybe it's cultural, meaning I don't think you Americans especially realize just how many people a person born and raised in London and involved in martial arts for many years has met. In fact couldn't avoid meeting. In the U.S. with it's great wide spaces and distances maybe a lot of you don't meet many folks from other arts etc. and so getting out is a big thing to you. It always seemed like normal procedure to me and my friends and part of the adventure.

Last time I looked, New York (born and raised) was larger than London. So is Tokyo, where I lived for many years - and I'm willing to bet there are a few more dojo there than in London, too. Your point is?

Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 309628)
Here's a good question for you: Does I/P result in the persons communication being less negative? Does it result in being more stable, more certain and positive and at the same time averse to putting others down and gossiping and ridiculing others ways.? In other words, does it lead to better behaviour as like O'Sensei for instance? True spiritual disciplines tend to do this.

Peace.G.

Like conventional Aikido? The track record for conventional Aikido in this area really isn't very good - I suppose that IP doesn't do any worse. :D

Best,

Chris

graham christian 05-25-2012 07:37 PM

Re: Spiritual and i/p
 
Precisely...:)

Peace.G.

Chris Li 05-25-2012 07:50 PM

Re: Spiritual and i/p
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 309631)
Precisely...:)

Peace.G.

OK, with that I'll take that as agreement that you have no experience in this area. :D

Note that "not any worse" isn't the same as "not any better". :cool:

Best,

Chris

graham christian 05-25-2012 08:24 PM

Re: Spiritual and i/p
 
No doubt you will...

Peace.G.

Tom Verhoeven 05-26-2012 08:16 PM

Re: Spiritual and i/p
 
Quote:

Christopher Li wrote: (Post 309571)

I touched on it a little bit here and again here, but the idea that Morihei Ueshiba originated a new purpose to martial training involving peace and enlightenment is demonstrably false.

That paradigm has existed for thousands of years, in many lands.

Best,

Chris

That is not a valid counter-argument. Graham did not state that Ueshiba Morihei originated a new purpose to martial arts training. He claims that O Sensei at that time gave a new purpose to his path and made it into a spiritual path. And that he expressed this by saying to Hikitsuchi "Budo is love".

The fact that the idea of enlightenment and peace as the ultimate goal of martial arts is very old and can be found throughout history in many different cultures and countries is here irrelevant.

Tom

Chris Li 05-27-2012 12:17 AM

Re: Spiritual and i/p
 
Quote:

Tom Verhoeven wrote: (Post 309674)
That is not a valid counter-argument. Graham did not state that Ueshiba Morihei originated a new purpose to martial arts training. He claims that O Sensei at that time gave a new purpose to his path and made it into a spiritual path. And that he expressed this by saying to Hikitsuchi "Budo is love".

The fact that the idea of enlightenment and peace as the ultimate goal of martial arts is very old and can be found throughout history in many different cultures and countries is here irrelevant.

Tom

I disagree, the idea that Morihei Ueshiba originated a new purpose to martial arts training is, in fact, the most common view in conventional Aikido. That makes it a reasonable interpretation when it's restated without qualification.

Best,

Chris

Kevin Leavitt 05-27-2012 12:47 AM

Re: Spiritual and i/p
 
I like the stereotype of "you Americans". The irony of this is that many of "you Americans" have spent more time living abroad than in the United States. Just thought I'd point that out. Kind of telling if you ask me. That is, concerning the assumptions and sweeping generalizations that one makes concerning others. Just saying.

I find that most folks on aikiweb to have a pretty wide experience base and world view and open mind which I like a a lot. It is kinda a downer really when this is not the case.

For someone claiming to have insight on spirituality as it relates to humanity, this is kind of counter to that if you ask me.

graham christian 05-27-2012 07:08 AM

Re: Spiritual and i/p
 
Quote:

Kevin Leavitt wrote: (Post 309681)
I like the stereotype of "you Americans". The irony of this is that many of "you Americans" have spent more time living abroad than in the United States. Just thought I'd point that out. Kind of telling if you ask me. That is, concerning the assumptions and sweeping generalizations that one makes concerning others. Just saying.

I find that most folks on aikiweb to have a pretty wide experience base and world view and open mind which I like a a lot. It is kinda a downer really when this is not the case.

For someone claiming to have insight on spirituality as it relates to humanity, this is kind of counter to that if you ask me.

No stereotype there Kevin. Many have spent more time living abroad??? That sounds stereotypical.

The Americans I mentioned or was referring to were those who took great time and repeated effort to tell me to 'get out more'. Those 'few'. Therefor, with such a strange view I concluded they must have a strange view of London. As I said, they talked about getting out more like it was all new to them and beneficial yet I've never heard anyone over here say such things as it's normal.

By the way, stereotypical and Americans? I doubt you know what the views over here are for it's not polite to say such things plus all such views are pretty stupid anyway.

Peace.G.

Kevin Leavitt 05-27-2012 07:59 AM

Re: Spiritual and i/p
 
I will be in London in about 4 weeks so I will make sure to pay attention.

No, I stated a fact. Many Americans have spent more time abroad than living in the states. Not a stereotype, a fact.

I could see your point of view that it is assumptive that u don't get out since your opinions are narrowly defined. It is my opinion, for instance that I believe you filter out information that does not meet your criteria of support your opinions. I wouldn't necessarily jump to the conclusion that u need to get out more, but I do believe based on my conversations that u have very strict parameters concerning Aikido.

So yeah I would see your point I suppose.

Carl Thompson 05-27-2012 08:18 AM

Re: Spiritual and i/p
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 309692)
No stereotype there Kevin. Many have spent more time living abroad??? That sounds stereotypical.

The Americans I mentioned or was referring to were those who took great time and repeated effort to tell me to 'get out more'. Those 'few'. Therefor, with such a strange view I concluded they must have a strange view of London. As I said, they talked about getting out more like it was all new to them and beneficial yet I've never heard anyone over here say such things as it's normal.

By the way, stereotypical and Americans? I doubt you know what the views over here are for it's not polite to say such things plus all such views are pretty stupid anyway.

Peace.G.

Graham

Telling someone their views are stupid is generally regarded as impolite.

Have you ever heard the phrase "on a wronger"? You do something wrong (e.g.: stereotype people because of their nationality, claim to know what a phenomenon that can only be felt is, without feeling it etc) and everything you do to make out that you didn't do something wrong just makes it "wronger". I recall you getting an offer on this forum to meet and train with someone who is at the centre of most of these discussions on IP. You had a chance but you refused and yet you still appear to want to be part of a debate about something that can only be felt, without actually feeling it.

You could be a voice providing us with information on IP from another viewpoint. However you appear unwilling to get into a position in which you can actually experience the phenomenon being discussed. If you get another chance, all these preceding spiels without any backup just lessen your reliability as a witness so when you do get hold of one of these people, it will be difficult for some to take what you say seriously.

You contribute a lot to this forum. One thing I appreciate, regardless of whether I agree with you is that I get to look at things from your point of view. The more you inform that view, the better for all of us.

Carl

graham christian 05-27-2012 08:39 AM

Re: Spiritual and i/p
 
Quote:

Kevin Leavitt wrote: (Post 309694)
I will be in London in about 4 weeks so I will make sure to pay attention.

No, I stated a fact. Many Americans have spent more time abroad than living in the states. Not a stereotype, a fact.

I could see your point of view that it is assumptive that u don't get out since your opinions are narrowly defined. It is my opinion, for instance that I believe you filter out information that does not meet your criteria of support your opinions. I wouldn't necessarily jump to the conclusion that u need to get out more, but I do believe based on my conversations that u have very strict parameters concerning Aikido.

So yeah I would see your point I suppose.

Thank you, well put. You are right, I do.

It's good to ask 'foreign' peoples their views on how they generally view you culturally. It's quite eye opening purely as an exercise. I used to manage a place of rented rooms for my brother in law and would ask the various inhabitants such questions about how they as Macedonians, or Polish or Indian or Slovakian etc. viewed the English generally, even from the point of view of how the way we speak sounds to them. It's all fascinating since being in a culture you can be surprised on what you have never noticed from the 'outside'.

My parameters are strict and you may say 'fixed' if you like. They are and always will be as I pointed out in the thread three stages of Aikido.

I stick to Budo is love and thus a strict discipline to that end. I stick to Aikido is Harmony with Ki and thus the opponent is someone to take care of and 'heal' thus bring them to a harmonious state in themselves and all done in the application of Aikido. I stick to these parameters and when it isn't the case it isn't Aikido. No buts, no ifs.

This to me therefor makes Aikido the hardest and most advanced Martial Art in existence. The only one with no opponents. The only one with masakatsu and agatsu as the thing to realize as it's guiding light.

No tricks in order to dominate, no misguided enticement to being all powerful, no purpose to win, no competition.

By the way, not far from here there's a whole area of Americans near an old American air base. I suppose being a super power and militarily speaking then many may well spend lots of time in certain countries. In Europe and more importantly in England the various cultures are well apparent but overall it's still amusing to me, a nice game hanging on to cultural identity and thinking it means something.

Thus people get trapped and led to wars etc. Identities. The cause of much grief. But that's another story ha, ha.

Peace.G.

graham christian 05-27-2012 09:16 AM

Re: Spiritual and i/p
 
Quote:

Carl Thompson wrote: (Post 309695)
Graham

Telling someone their views are stupid is generally regarded as impolite.

Have you ever heard the phrase "on a wronger"? You do something wrong (e.g.: stereotype people because of their nationality, claim to know what a phenomenon that can only be felt is, without feeling it etc) and everything you do to make out that you didn't do something wrong just makes it "wronger". I recall you getting an offer on this forum to meet and train with someone who is at the centre of most of these discussions on IP. You had a chance but you refused and yet you still appear to want to be part of a debate about something that can only be felt, without actually feeling it.

You could be a voice providing us with information on IP from another viewpoint. However you appear unwilling to get into a position in which you can actually experience the phenomenon being discussed. If you get another chance, all these preceding spiels without any backup just lessen your reliability as a witness so when you do get hold of one of these people, it will be difficult for some to take what you say seriously.

You contribute a lot to this forum. One thing I appreciate, regardless of whether I agree with you is that I get to look at things from your point of view. The more you inform that view, the better for all of us.

Carl

Carl, I think you misread it. I said stereotyping is stupid of itself.

Recall if you will that I have said I have trained with people who do various forms of Internal. Recall also I have met one who is trying some of the methods from the person you refer to. So note I have met many in the past. Recall if you will I have never said it is useless or wrong or any such thing. So note I can and have given opinions on having felt it and it's nothing new to me.

Now, to this new 'breed' of I/P meaning this new 'way of disseminating and practicing it' then you may well say I have not been in contact with to any great degree at all. How could I, it's new.

I accept offers from those who I believe have something of worth for me or for various other reasons. I refuse offers for various reasons too as do you no doubt and everyone else. So the fact that one person I see no need to meet or train with seems to hold some significance to you I'll just leave with you and whoever else.

Let me give you a reality: In life now I do not go searching for any extra something with regards to Aikido so I need not meet anyone offering something 'new'. That's me circa now.

I meet 90% of the time only those who want to learn what I have to teach, the other ten percent (probably even less) is to share.

You do not have to feel something to understand so if you believe that then therein lies our difference of view. Sometimes you do. Add to that the fact that what you feel of itself means what exactly? Not much. It doesn't mean much at all really until you can personally do it yourself. It's just something that is a part of all training everywhere in the process of learning not some special outstanding golden rule.

I've said before and will say again, dilettantes love to feel and say it has to be felt. I have no time for such. It's interesting only from the view that the person reporting translated what they felt. Beyond that I see no relevance. It's relevance is only in relation to if you want to do it yourself. Otherwise it's just good gossip.

Peace.G.

Chris Parkerson 05-27-2012 09:34 AM

Re: Spiritual and i/p
 
Hey Graham,

I had an idea about spirituality and Aikido. I would love your insight.

Postulate#1 aikido promotes love and harmony.
Postulate #2 big changes are occurring in society regarding how love-based living expresses itself in distinction to fear-based lifestyling. One love-based concept is to trust emergence and surrender to group wisdom. In contradistinction, fear based folks tend to create hierarchies and only trust heirarchically appointed leadership.

Issue: can we allow for emergent holarchies? Can wick trump hierarchical dogmas?

graham christian 05-27-2012 10:34 AM

Re: Spiritual and i/p
 
Quote:

Chris Parkerson wrote: (Post 309701)
Hey Graham,

I had an idea about spirituality and Aikido. I would love your insight.

Postulate#1 aikido promotes love and harmony.
Postulate #2 big changes are occurring in society regarding how love-based living expresses itself in distinction to fear-based lifestyling. One love-based concept is to trust emergence and surrender to group wisdom. In contradistinction, fear based folks tend to create hierarchies and only trust heirarchically appointed leadership.

Issue: can we allow for emergent holarchies? Can wick trump hierarchical dogmas?

I see they can both be fear based. The loved based one you mention I don't see any connection between trusting in emergence and group wisdom. Emergent holarchies? Without inspection I have never heard of such so my first thought is that it's more intellectual nonsense.

I will check it up and get back to you.

The subject seems to be more about hierarchies that your questioning and how the principles of love fit. Is that so?

Anyway, got to go out now, get back to you later.

Peace.G.

Chris Parkerson 05-27-2012 11:08 AM

Re: Spiritual and i/p
 
Historical Emergent holarchy -
In the Old Testament - book of Judges.
No king, just a bunch of tribal shepherds. But during a crisis, a skilled person emerges with the tools to navigate the. Crisis.

WWII - German SS troops knew in the field who should be in charge. It was the guy who emerged and proved his skills within the context of battle.

Modern - in new age community, heirRchy is replaced by holarchy through round table (Tribal) councils. Wisdom university, for instance, Jim Garrison gave up the presidency and now shares it equally between 3 people. The larger council sits with them but the student body sits in a circle surrounding them all during their annual leadership course. Students also participate in most levels of curriculum development and doctoral review.

Hierarchy (encyclopedia britanica's old style of printing annual volumes is replaced by wikipedia and group consciousness emerges with accurate data va collaboration.

DH 05-27-2012 12:15 PM

Re: Spiritual and i/p
 
Quote:

Graham Christian wrote: (Post 309561)
Time for a differentiation, or should I say my differentiation between Aikido and i/p.

I notice lately it's become more 'regular' to use the word 'aiki' to represent i/p as if it is the natural aiki of aikido. This I believe is far from the case and thus the purpose of this thread.

I/P is given as tracing from chinese this and that and seen as being 'hidden' from the western or even those outside certain inner circles. This may well be the case in a lot of instances but the paranoia that goes with it I find amusing. Firstly because I think it doesn't apply to Ueshibas Aikido and secondly because it is possible for most in this day and age, if they are dedicated enough to go and find a good teacher of such things.

So what's the big secret? Nothing.
Peace.G.

You can't use or have ever demonstrated IP/IS and by your own writing reveal you know nothing at all about it. I find it curious to then read you making a comparison of something you know nothing about

Quote:

Here's the thing, Ueshiba's Aikido was not to do with internal power as per I/P or I/S. It was different. In fact I would say that i/p is more for health, body health
Morihei Ueshiba continuously quoted the Internal arts training concepts. He then went on to continuously demonstrate- in the same fashion many internal arts did- with push tests.

a. You cannot discuss them, so you ridicule us (as paranoid?)
b. You can do nothing of this (so you discredit it's worth)

Many of us can read what he said and do what he did to one degree or another. You...cannot. Hence, the movement to now get away from the Ueshiba standard (that so few of you can even approach) and try to redefine his work as something that you CAN do, at any cost.

You, and many Shihan and advanced teachers have disqualified yourself from any discussion of Ueshiba by your own hand. As time moves on, more and more of you are going to be tested when you appear in public-well, that's already happening anyway.
The smart teachers will do one of two things; Avoid and/or reduce public exposure or...............change.
As One Shihan recently wrote; we can stand on the street corner and shout for all he cared. That's fair and that's fine, as long as he doesn't touch hands with us. More and more of us will continue to use Ueshiba's training model and there will be nothing you can do but to stare in wonder....just as they did with Ueshiba
Only one of us is correct. And only one of us can and has proven it...over and over.

I openly state that those who continue to discount this work are going to slip away into the mist. The value of Ueshiba's work stood against challenge then and it does now. Whats left....avoid challenge.

There's really nothing to say when you cannot withstand it. As I said in another thread; people still want to debate when thousands of you have consistently and continuously failed in person.
What's left to debate?
The nature of your failure?
The quality of your misunderstanding?
How little effort it takes to show you?
What?

Thankfully his work continues to unite many who are thrilled to finally get it...after decades in the wrong direction.
Dan


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