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Old 05-21-2012, 11:04 AM   #26
Belt_Up
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Re: Arm locks... really???????

Quote:
Graham Jenkins wrote: View Post
YouTube's video timer must be broken, then: it says that from the moment the guy in the video was grabbed, to the next time we see him (unconscious on the floor), took ten seconds - and as at least a few of those weren't spent choking him...

Also:

http://youtu.be/feHKjX5PaCo?t=1m2s

Seven seconds by my count - both times.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSVHg...eature=related

Four seconds...?
You're putting individual cases up against an average. You do realise that doesn't really work? For every person who goes out quickly, there may be one who takes a while. Hence, you study lots of people.

I'm not saying it can't happen as quick as some say, I've just never seen (or felt) unconsciousness take effect in that very short space of time. I'm sure there's plenty of room for variance though.

Quote:
Somewhat to Mr. Martindales query note that only 16 of 24 subject reached ocular fixation so whomever was putting on the vascular restriction was not good enough to get the desired results on all fully compliant subjects. I'd say that is trending on the lesser skilled side of the discussion.
It could be it was a skilled chap and some very tough subjects (though I doubt it, I've yet to see anyone unbothered by the VNR).

Quote:
but there was never any real intent in the assailant
But there's no way to tell. Intent is internal. Only he knew what he was thinking. I thought Hall dropping him was well-judged and welll-executed.

Last edited by Belt_Up : 05-21-2012 at 11:07 AM.
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Old 05-21-2012, 11:08 AM   #27
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Arm locks... really???????

Quote:
Walter Martindale wrote: View Post
The abstract doesn't really say who was doing the choking or how good they are at it. It's a fairly simple technique to apply. Tighten up around the neck and then "make a muscle" - flex all the muscles in the upper body - reduces the amount of space in the gap through which the person's neck (and, obviously, blood flow) are going.

The hard part is getting getting the choke on, to apply, and in a non-rules environment, not getting your eyes and other body parts gouged, bitten, stabbed, grabbed, etc., while you're trying to sink on a "hadaka jime".
In a rules-environment you can take all the time you want, within limits.
Walter,

That seems to be the critical issue..... getting the choke on while not getting gouges by fingers (or knives). The issue is first "who is controlling who". If I have my structure, I may even turn the Hadaka Jime into a throw.

I must admit, the police chokes were taught with "safe" methods (only taking blood vessels) for many years and their ideas on stabilizing uke left much room for pivoting of the opponent's body as a defense and counter. The old dogma of "keeping your gunside back" (i.e. blading the body even while you are behind the opponent) skewed proper jujitsu positioning.

I am still convinced that the judo version of chokes is not sufficient. The best choke has the cutter bone of the wrist come up under the coracoid process. It takes air, blood and separates the cervicle vertebrae.

Even using this military version of the choke, one must create kuzushi (position before submission) or the technique can be turned.

I trained both hard and soft neck strengthening techniques. Neck bridges were a good part of that. Just as important were internal forms of exhaling and the consistent stretching of the fascial tissue around the throat as my partner grabbed my gi and pressed his fist laterally against my throat to the laft and then to the right..

I am still convinced that arm bars are superior methods against trained fighters and thus, all fighters. Arm bars are potentially "lethal frce" (just like chokes are). But the choke is lethal by definition. Only the Koppo is lethal in an arm bar. Lethal force being defined as killing or maiming.

When I get home from this tour I am doing, I will attach Hal's 2 on 1 grip basics onto this post. Hal had over 1,000 organized competitive bouths (Judo, AAU Wrestling and Sambo). Few people can make such a claim. He also used his strategy as a cop, as a PI and as a member of Operation 40 (CIA). His strategy on arm bars is genius.

Last edited by Chris Parkerson : 05-21-2012 at 11:13 AM.
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Old 05-21-2012, 01:42 PM   #28
Alberto_Italiano
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Re: Arm locks... really???????

Quote:
Andrew Macdonald wrote: View Post
in a recent revival of a old thread it was stated by a few people that the most effective technique in a fight is an arm lock. to start of a discussion about that i would like to ask 2 questions

1. when you are in a fight what is your goal? or to put it another way what is a win for you

2. What s the purpose of the arm lock? or at least what comes after?
The reason to emphasize the usage of armlocks (emphasized not only by me) relies on several reasons:

1) You have to imagine that your opponent knows how to fight (keep in mind I always have this evenience in mind, because everybody can beat a drunkard - but your real challenge and your real danger comes when you have to face a guy who knows the "business"...), and by knowing how to fight it means he has experience in competition matches like say MMA or boxing.
If you haven't that experience you won't stand a chance. If you have never faced before an MMA fighter or a boxeur, believe me it may be shocking - you may not even be able to hit him once and he will set the whole agenda...
His experience, rapidity of execution, mobility on feet and hips, brutal strength, ability to take away your maai (distance) with mere millimetric moves (you see an incoming punch and you make big movements to get away from it right? well, a boxer doesn't, he moves just for the few centimetres needed for the purpose!) are all factors (to quote just a few) that would simply startle you if you're used only to ukes in an average Aikido dojo. You risk of finding right then and there, for the first time in your life, that many of the techiniques that worked smoothly in your dojo are simply ineffectual against such an adversary. And then you will be game.

2) at this point, your goal is to make fighting impossibile and your ornly real option against such a foe is to produce an armlock.

3) Even if your opponent does not know how to fight, if you hit him or project him you risk of making him go into a coma, or even kill him - the accounts of guys dead for one punch (normally as a consequence of bumping their heads on concrete or corners while falling - and unexperienced guys have a tendency to fall with just one good punch, unfortunately) are endless on our newspapers and we also had a tragic account, recently, on these very same forums.
You then have to live with the (manifold) consequences of your unintended actions.

Please note that such unintended consequences may occur also with neck grabs.
No way they happen with an armlock instead...

4) Once produced the armlock what "comes after" is very simple: nothing. If the armlock is effective (and most of the times they are), you simply keep him there untile either he cools off or security takes over, unable to fight any further.

ps if you are facing multiple adversaries, you've got a problem in a real situation.

I hope this helps.

Last edited by Alberto_Italiano : 05-21-2012 at 01:48 PM.
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Old 05-21-2012, 01:53 PM   #29
Alberto_Italiano
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Re: Arm locks... really???????

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post

Chokes and strangles are potentially "Deadly Force" in the force continuum. (...) . In such an opponent, rather than untrained ones, arm bars do have a higher combat efficiency value, from my and a few other's perspectives. Hal Von Luebbert actually did a study on this for the army back in the late 1950's. Arm locks (without the koppo) are both effective and compassionate in dealing with unruly folks.
Exactly.

Last edited by Alberto_Italiano : 05-21-2012 at 01:56 PM.
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Old 05-21-2012, 02:36 PM   #30
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Arm locks... really???????

Alberto and others,

I have really enjoyed this thread, it's diversity, and the various paths they represent.

Your final point, albert:

4) Once produced the armlock what "comes after" is very simple: nothing. If the armlock is effective (and most of the times they are), you simply keep him there untile either he cools off or security takes over, unable to fight any further.

For me, I tend to use kuzushi to take the armloch to the edge of a throw. I call it putting the fat mam on one toe at the edge of the diving board. Sensei Leydyard call this the "seam". Good enough.
This is where I simply become the conductor on the train. Unemotional and without getting
sidetracked by my own mental projections, I let my opponent decide what is next. I simply punch
his train ticket. He can go home (a pin and a talking-to is the path); he can go to the hospital ( koppo at the weak joint(s) right has you drop him of the diving board will to the trick) or he can go
to the next world (a small circled throw in which the pivot point I have offered him, simply
evaporates and his head crashes to the ground, likely breaking his neck) no escape like in Aikido
throws.


This is compassion, I give him the options and feel his answer and desire through my hands and hara.

Last edited by Chris Parkerson : 05-21-2012 at 02:39 PM.
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Old 05-21-2012, 02:43 PM   #31
Walter Martindale
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Re: Arm locks... really???????

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
Walter,

That seems to be the critical issue..... getting the choke on while not getting gouges by fingers (or knives). The issue is first "who is controlling who". If I have my structure, I may even turn the Hadaka Jime into a throw.

(snip)
That's the main thing - do you have enough control to apply a choke? Do you have time? Do you have freedom (only one opponent) to apply a choke? Are you sure?
I've recounted this previously - a Canadian national team (retired) judoka got into an argument with another person at a bar in western Canada (pre 1990). Argument went to the street, judoka threw opponent to the ground and was applying some form of juji-jime to him (possibly nami, gyaku, or whatever - doesn't really matter, does it?) when opponent's friend pushed a knife through and through the judoka's chest. This, of course, ended the fight. The judoka somehow survived as the knife missed heart, aorta, vena cava, pulmonary veins and arteries, and spinal cord, but there was (AIUI) an extended stay in hospital. Don't know if a lung was punctured or not. I won't name the judoka.

You mentioned "cutter bone" - that's the radius. I believe you're talking about the one where you grip palm-to-palm with the radius across the throat, and pull like heck as if you're trying to take the guy's head off with your radius?

The way I was taught to do "rear naked choke" or "Police sleeper" or whatever is as was shown in those videos, above, but the idea was to get it on quite tight for starters, have the bottom hand grabbing your own biceps (of the other arm, obviously), have the top hand palm down on the back of the other's head, pushing downwards/forwards into the hold, hug very hard, and clench both biceps and all the forearm muscles hard. Makes for a very tightly held neck, high pressure inside the choke, and not a lot of room for blood flow. I've only rendered a few unconscious, but it took nowhere near 5 seconds if I had it on "right".
Severely out of training at present.
Cheers,
W
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Old 05-21-2012, 02:47 PM   #32
Alberto_Italiano
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Re: Arm locks... really???????

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
Alberto and others,

I have really enjoyed this thread, it's diversity, and the various paths they represent.

Your final point, albert:

4) Once produced the armlock what "comes after" is very simple: nothing. If the armlock is effective (and most of the times they are), you simply keep him there untile either he cools off or security takes over, unable to fight any further.

For me, I tend to use kuzushi to take the armloch to the edge of a throw. I call it putting the fat mam on one to at the adge of the diving board. Sensei Leydyard call this the "seam". Good enough.

This is where I simply become the conductor on the train. Unemotional and without getting sidetracked by my own mental projections, I let my opponent decide what is next. I simply punch his train ticket. He can go home (a pin and a talking-to is the path); he can go to the hospital ( koppo right has you drop him of the diving board will to the trick) or he can go to the next world (a small circled throw in which the pivot point I have offered him, simply evaporates and his head crashes to the ground, likely breaking his neck) no escape like in Aikido throws.

This is compassion, I give him the options and feel his answer and desire through my hands and hara.
I couldn't agree more.
I am also not surprised that Leydyard, maybe my favourite "author" here , substantially concurred with that by what you report.

You also add an important element that I did not include, but that is vital: armlocks should be always armolock intended to finish with a potential projection (this was your point if I did not misunderstood it).
Very true! This is in fact exactly what I ahd in mind - we have a video in this thread where an armlock is produced however it was not nearly as effective as it could be: it was a "standing" armlock - whereas with a really good armlock, you ground him also. The armlocking guy was relying on wrist and elbow, whereas you also have a shoulder - it is pressure on the armpit/shoulder area what produces the grounding projection in my humble experience (grounding ex boxing partners).

You may also match an armlock and grounding with a nice nykkio: once armlocked on his knees, you may also nykkio his hand as you keep the armlock.

Indeed, if a person has experience, should never envision anything else but a compassionate solution - this suits better everybody, simply. The next world can wait, hopefully!

Of course, if we want to joke about what happens next, well he will probably also explain to you, as he is armlocked, what he thinks of your mummy daddy sisters brothers relatives and girlfriend... well you just ignore him, we believe in free speech here!
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Old 05-21-2012, 04:13 PM   #33
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Arm locks... really???????

hey guys,

I found a couple of short clips of Hal teaching the 2 on 1 grip to the geriatric crew plus one young marine DT instructor. The dojo is Parker Linekin's Academy of the Maqrtial Arts in Mira Mesa, CA (2005).

Here is the 2 on 1 grip with foot sweep.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jS8VoXo_EV4

and another with an ikkyo-style arm bar much like what was posted earlier.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cAcr...feature=relmfu

and a clip where Parker Linekin and I are "rolling" with a series of grips and counter grips demonstrating how to get into the 2 on 1 grip from a traditional attack. Notice that we never allow a full 2 on 1 grip as we are assisting each other to become fluid in transitions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmwdrRs3vp0
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Old 05-21-2012, 04:27 PM   #34
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Arm locks... really???????

Just another note,

here are a few front throws (small circle) performed off the 2 on 1 grip using a lighter Aiki style.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzpw13tuFkM

Incidentally, all videos I do of myself are unrehearsed and executed from a cold, clean barrel. No need for perfect posturing, I own what I do in the moment and learn from the recording.

So, no peeps from the peanut gallery.
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Old 05-21-2012, 05:31 PM   #35
Alberto_Italiano
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Re: Arm locks... really???????

My main concern has always been that of being able to place an armlock that is immediate & effective against a guy who is throwing unceasing punches at me.

In a situation that is so dynamic and so dangerous as the above mentioned it does not come easy to place complex armlocks (well, complex for me!) like for instance those meant to end with a shiho nage.

Knowing the rapidity with which a skilled puncher may repeatedly hit you, I have the following concerns:

1) I must be able to place the armlock as soon as possible
2) I must first protect myself from that tempest - thus I must shield myself (hands at face height or close enough to be there in a lightening, to shield me), dodge (move away laterally from incoming stuff), parry (try to brush it aside also as you dodge) and move lateral (try to go lateral to that arm): that is use the whole arsenal to avoid that incoming stuff at your face!
3) I must be able to produce an armlock that can be placed also on a rechambered arm because odds are that I will find it rechambered, for a skilled puncher can be very very fast (an instance of one of the fastest speeds ever reached: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URyaqxK-1fI - and if he is that fast and that unceasing, you're done - armlock or not. There is no armlock, no knife, no bottle, no chain that you can stop him with, because he sets the whole agenda then - you need a gun. Btw also a very enjoyable and instructive video, worth your time)

Perhaps with that video you may also understand why I say that you won't iriminage that type of guys... no "Mune Tsuki Waza" with those guys, you won't do to them this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7CKSFryR7I ...
Clinch, try to go lateral, and try grab one of their arms - you won't stand a chance for any other technique if you're attacked about so hard.

To date, the only armlock that I (me, maybe others are better than me - that's not difficult lol) have been able to place in the given situation is the one seen here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5woFlsJq-tQ (move right away at minute 7.45 till minute 8.10 all the rest is irrelevant don't waste your time. I have looked several times for that armlock on youtube but never found one, maybe I was looking in the wrong places though!)

It is regrettable that I cannot produce a video with an uke rather than with domestic makeshift kata devices. However that type of armlock, at least in my case, has worked in all the occasions I managed to go lateral, without exceptions, and perhaps most significantly it has worked on rechambered arms too.

True, my partners weren't near so fast like in the first video, but with that speed as said you won't even place an armlock. You need a Glock.

Well, just to add my two cents to the armlocks parade.

Last edited by Alberto_Italiano : 05-21-2012 at 05:36 PM.
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Old 05-21-2012, 06:25 PM   #36
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Arm locks... really???????

Quote:
Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
My main concern has always been that of being able to place an armlock that is immediate & effective against a guy who is throwing unceasing punches at me.

Knowing the rapidity with which a skilled puncher may repeatedly hit you, I have the following concerns:

1) I must be able to place the armlock as soon as possible
2) I must first protect myself from that tempest - thus I must shield myself (hands at face height or close enough to be there in a lightening, to shield me), dodge (move away laterally from incoming stuff), parry (try to brush it aside also as you dodge) and move lateral (try to go lateral to that arm): that is use the whole arsenal to avoid that incoming stuff at your face!
3) I must be able to produce an armlock that can be placed also on a rechambered arm because odds are that I will find it rechambered, for a skilled puncher can be very very fast (an instance of one of the fastest speeds ever reached: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URyaqxK-1fI - and if he is that fast and that unceasing, you're done - armlock or not. There is no armlock, no knife, no bottle, no chain that you can stop him with, because he sets the whole agenda then - you need a gun. Btw also a very enjoyable and instructive video, worth your time)

Perhaps with that video you may also understand why I say that you won't iriminage that type of guys... no "Mune Tsuki Waza" with those guys, you won't do to them this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7CKSFryR7I ...
Clinch, try to go lateral, and try grab one of their arms - you won't stand a chance for any other technique if you're attacked about so hard.

To date, the only armlock that I (me, maybe others are better than me - that's not difficult lol) have been able to place in the given situation is the one seen here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5woFlsJq-tQ (move right away at minute 7.45 till minute 8.10 all the rest is irrelevant don't waste your time. I have looked several times for that armlock on youtube but never found one, maybe I was looking in the wrong places though!)
.
In my own experience, it is not necessary (1) to get the arm lock ASAP. I would fine tune the idea as being get positioning ASAP. You can sneak an armlock on someone rather subtly. In this video, I place a sumi otoshi on a boxer's punch using the old adage that a fist moves rally fast, but the elbow moves slower and tghe shoulder moves slower still. In these following two clips, I am suing a sumi otoshi and heaven and earth throws to complete the process. Notice how i am using Leydyard's ideas on the Ikkyo curve to throw at most any point. Yes, I am always headed for the 2 on 1 grip if the throw doesn't happen quickly. It is simply the best place to fight from. It cancells out the other person's weapons better than other frontal positions do.Arm bars are great to collect as the opponent is falling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DD5eGWmmNcg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Thy_ud1H8U

I would also differ with the Aikido clip you provided. The teacher is going yin on both sides of the punch (retreating) as he places his feathering block behind the attacking arm. I have had more success with going yang on the outside and yin on the inside. This gives me an effective tenkan (Baqua step attack that places my center of gravity right behind the "conjunction point" of the attacker.

My tenkan can be small as I am getting clocked (worst caqse scenario) or it can be larger as I blend as the punch is coming towards me and I use my arms to assist in the evasion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QdUsGvJxCU
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Old 05-22-2012, 12:22 AM   #37
Andrew Macdonald
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Re: Arm locks... really???????

Quote:
You have to imagine that your opponent knows how to fight (keep in mind I always have this evenience in mind, because everybody can beat a drunkard - but your real challenge and your real danger comes when you have to face a guy who knows the "business"...), and by knowing how to fight it means he has experience in competition matches like say MMA or boxing
with respect I have to disagree with this, just becasue someone knows how to fight doesn't mean they are formaly trained in anything, I know lots of effective street fighters who have just been fighting for a good part of thier life without taking any lessons

Quote:
If you haven't that experience you won't stand a chance. If you have never faced before an MMA fighter or a boxeur, believe me it may be shocking - you may not even be able to hit him once and he will set the whole agenda...
yes this is very ture, if you haven't ever pressure tested your style, you will be woefully under prepared to deal with anything, whether it is some one facing off and then attacking or ambushing

Quote:
His experience, rapidity of execution, mobility on feet and hips, brutal strength, ability to take away your maai (distance) with mere millimetric moves (you see an incoming punch and you make big movements to get away from it right? well, a boxer doesn't, he moves just for the few centimetres needed for the purpose!) are all factors (to quote just a few) that would simply startle you if you're used only to ukes in an average Aikido dojo. You risk of finding right then and there, for the first time in your life, that many of the techiniques that worked smoothly in your dojo are simply ineffectual against such an adversary. And then you will be game.
No, I don;t make big movements to avoid a punch it is not only boxing that teaches this but many arts and just through experience of fighting you learn not to make big movements. this also assumes that the boxer will be doing pure boxing, he will feel the adreneline dump well in afight, becasue it is not a sports match where he knew in advance and was training for it and prapring for possiblly months. not saying that his boxing won;t come through in some way but it will be very different to what he does in the ring.

Quote:
at this point, your goal is to make fighting impossibile and your ornly real option against such a foe is to produce an armlock.
no my goal is to escape, an armlock keeps me in the fight,

Quote:
Once produced the armlock what "comes after" is very simple: nothing. If the armlock is effective (and most of the times they are), you simply keep him there untile either he cools off or security takes over, unable to fight any further.
Again with the idea to escape a fight, keeping some on on the ground until the cool off has no pupose, and i have seen people in such a situation where the guy apparently cooled off the stood up and knocked 7 bells out of the other fella. if you r armlock is also based on pain compliance, drugs, alchol and even adrenline can increase a persons pain tolernace considerably.holding a fella down until other arrive might seem like a good idea but you are then gambling that the people who arrive first will be security and not other looking for a fight.

Quote:
if you are facing multiple adversaries, you've got a problem in a real situation
where i am from facing multiples is the norm, and you have to train for that, moving and escaping. I do not really care about being the most skilled fighter in my street or town,but just about surviving.

I have heard many accounts of people using Armlock but their purpose was different to mine, and it wasn't even in a real serious situation.

There are of course maybe exceptional skilled people int he world that can pull off armlocks to anyone, but i am not one of them.
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Old 05-22-2012, 05:41 AM   #38
Gorgeous George
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Re: Arm locks... really???????

I think this sums up why I think a joint lock is inferior to a choke (strangle) that puts somebody unconscious:

http://youtu.be/FUYwlxHjkMA?t=1m10s
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Old 05-22-2012, 07:39 AM   #39
Alberto_Italiano
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Re: Arm locks... really???????

Quote:
Andrew Macdonald wrote: View Post
with respect I have to disagree with this, just becasue someone knows how to fight doesn't mean they are formaly trained in anything, I know lots of effective street fighters who have just been fighting for a good part of thier life without taking any lessons

yes this is very ture, if you haven't ever pressure tested your style, you will be woefully under prepared to deal with anything, whether it is some one facing off and then attacking or ambushing

No, I don;t make big movements to avoid a punch it is not only boxing that teaches this but many arts and just through experience of fighting you learn not to make big movements. this also assumes that the boxer will be doing pure boxing, he will feel the adreneline dump well in afight, becasue it is not a sports match where he knew in advance and was training for it and prapring for possiblly months. not saying that his boxing won;t come through in some way but it will be very different to what he does in the ring.

no my goal is to escape, an armlock keeps me in the fight,

Again with the idea to escape a fight, keeping some on on the ground until the cool off has no pupose, and i have seen people in such a situation where the guy apparently cooled off the stood up and knocked 7 bells out of the other fella. if you r armlock is also based on pain compliance, drugs, alchol and even adrenline can increase a persons pain tolernace considerably.holding a fella down until other arrive might seem like a good idea but you are then gambling that the people who arrive first will be security and not other looking for a fight.

where i am from facing multiples is the norm, and you have to train for that, moving and escaping. I do not really care about being the most skilled fighter in my street or town,but just about surviving.

I have heard many accounts of people using Armlock but their purpose was different to mine, and it wasn't even in a real serious situation.

There are of course maybe exceptional skilled people int he world that can pull off armlocks to anyone, but i am not one of them.
Yes you are stating true points, however what should be kept in mind when writing on forums is that your counterpart cannot always write a treatise in order to cover all possibile points (I already make consierable efforts, but fundamentally you cannot always cover or imagine any possibile given observation or exception). Some times what we say is true regardless of the fact we omitted details. I think you agree.

So, it is true that you don't need a formal training in order to fight - however, you do need an intensive training in that, no matter then if you have made it in an MMA gym or in a boxing gym or in the street with gang buddies... When I emphasize the MMA o boxing thing what is implied, and the reason they are mentoned, is that:
1) you do need to spar intensively and frequently
2) you need to spar with guys who really want to incapacitate you (no "demonstrations"...)

This is the department where, unfortunately, aikido is more lacking.

As for the wide movements, all martial arts teach and advocate not making big movements to avoid punches or incoming hits, inclusive of Aikido. So I am not surprised that you have been taught so.
My point is: if a guy is taught so, but never practices intensively, those millimetric movements won't simply come out of him when necessary - he will get easily scared by a wide variety of factors, and he will find himself making huge movements all the same that, actually, will expose him even further (a skilled fighter will pursue you in no time, no matter how ample your supposedly evading movements are).
So, i guess we agree here also (not that I have problems with disagreements, I only stress that many details are details I may have not covered, and yet i am aware of them).

Let me add however that this idea that an MMA training or boxing training would not work well in a "real" fight is an idea that can be entertained only as long as one has not been in both.
The type of, let me say, terrific skills that you learn with daily sparring are such that it is totally irrelevant whether a guy in a "real" situation produces a chain, a bottle, or even a knife: your ability to hit repeatedly and at an incredibly fast pace, of moving out of the line instantly and keep hitting from the side, of dancing around, are such skills that will pose you in a position to set the whole agenda.
I have been faced 3 times with a bottle in my life (once not even long ago, but i am referring here to 25 years ago when I sparred regularly) and let me assure you not only those bottles where useless, but I knew they were - I even said to one of them before we started "that won't help you". They did not even get a chance to lift their arm! That's how fast and effective you can be if you keep sparring regularly.

If a skilled puncher engages you, then you're engaged. The shower of punches that will reach one's face in a few seconds from so many different routes is such that you simply have no time for anything else but taking it - you won't reach out for bottles, you won't even have time to think about the knife you have in your pocket (aside from the fact the time I saw a guy putting his hand in his back pocket I knew what he was looking for - you just invest him with even greater ease with your straights, his hand will "die" in his pocket - besides the way you are trained to move out of the line and reengage from another angle immediately is such that even a knife would pose no problem, imagining here a guy who relies on mild abilities with a knife).

instead longer blades or sticks can be a problem, like multiple adversaries. I knew as a fact I could manage at most two also if it never happened to me to be faced by two and fight.

So, definitely, being used to spar makes the difference also in "real" situations. I have seen (not involved) persons hit by a chain. What cause the chain to be successful was that the person was scared to death in merely seeing it. Instead it is trivial to avoid a chain hit: as soon as he is posed to swing his arm, you just make a relatively big step forward, you take completely away from him the distance and you say "goodnight" just in front of his nose...

I also agree that keeping a person armlocked in the hope he cools off is not bound to work in all situations, exactly for the reasons you mention.
However, if you don't want to risk killing guys (with all the entailed consequences) like your default option, armlocking and giving to him the opportunity to cool off is a good idea nonetheless. Eventually, you can always cause significant damage to his arm or wrist by adding manipulation with blunt force on the joints, enough to make it unusable, and being so also assured it was no use of lethal force.
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Old 05-22-2012, 07:54 AM   #40
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Re: Arm locks... really???????

ps should I add that, perhaps unsurprisingly, I always stated that fights are a very dangerous business and that you should preferaby avoid all of them even at the cost of not intervening in the problems of the others (such as a "nagged" lady or so) or of being "punked"?

Most fatal damages are a consequence of persons that, since they have never been in a fight and are fundamentally untrained for the "real" thing, entertain somewhat romantic ideas about it - so they get into the line of fire and at times they are lucky and go to the pub and tell all their buddies how their wondrous first or second punch solved the situation or how they placed a sankyo on that pathetic idiot who, untrained as them, engaged them while on tequila - which ignites a vicious circle where they get even more ingrained into the fundamentally fictional idea of a "fight" that they entertained, and on their ability to deal with it, which poses them in the situation of crossing again and again the line of fire even when not necessary at all.

Other times, unfortunately, they aren't so lucky and at times they cannot even tell.

Last edited by Alberto_Italiano : 05-22-2012 at 08:01 AM.
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Old 05-22-2012, 08:21 AM   #41
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Arm locks... really???????

In Hal Von Luebbert's book "Fight Strength" he begins with a story where five guys in a back alley assault him with sticks and chains. After two great Osoto's and an ICBM mata, he pulls a 2nd Ichihara mata on a man with a chain. As Hal lands on top of him, he feels a ripping pain in his gut.
He wonders if he has been shot but has no time to assess it.

He rises and charges the final opponent. The bad guy's eyes are bulging out of their sockets. The man turns and runs away. Hal stops for a second and feels something warm and wet on his chest. He assesses. It was puke. He was charging the final guy while spewing vomit like a berserker.... that what happens when a chain wraps around and slaps your groin.

Just a cool story. Having lived with Hal for a few months and been his training partner for a year, I can attest that his training methods were an attempt at daily suicide. Gottaluvit.
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Old 05-22-2012, 08:30 AM   #42
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Re: Arm locks... really???????

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
In Hal Von Luebbert's book "Fight Strength" he begins with a story where five guys in a back alley assault him with sticks and chains. After two great Osoto's and an ICBM mata, he pulls a 2nd Ichihara mata on a man with a chain. As Hal lands on top of him, he feels a ripping pain in his gut.
He wonders if he has been shot but has no time to assess it.

He rises and charges the final opponent. The bad guy's eyes are bulging out of their sockets. The man turns and runs away. Hal stops for a second and feels something warm and wet on his chest. He assesses. It was puke. He was charging the final guy while spewing vomit like a berserker.... that what happens when a chain wraps around and slaps your groin.

Just a cool story. Having lived with Hal for a few months and been his training partner for a year, I can attest that his training methods were an attempt at daily suicide. Gottaluvit.
Yes Chirs.
I am truly enjoying this thread as well, as you said earlier.

I have been told gruesome reports of boxers that were able to deal with, well, 12 guys... I have no idea whether that's possibile at all. I can envision a situation like an Eastwood movie or a Seagal movie where one highly trained individual may cope with several untrained ones.

But, personally, I knew as a fact, with no need to have been there, that above 2 guys would have been a big problem for me even in my heydays (loooong ago lol).

The story that you report is a good combination of both perspectives: if you're well trained you can deal also with many, yet at the same time it is, as said, a very dangerous business where your life can vanish at any moment, as in Luebbert's case was about to happen.

This aside from the concern you may badly hurt someone's else. At first one may think it's cool, but indeed it will develop over time as a regret that may daunt you your whole life. I am fortunate that I have only minor regrets in this department and I hope i will never be faced with any situation ever again where anything may occur. Thinking that some persons may have to live with the idea of having unwillingly killed somebody with a punch makes me understand, with a degree of certainty, that it's definitely a memory I would prefer to live without.

Some persons are surprised that, if you had a fighting training, then you eventually avoid fighting. Indeed, there are persons who are trained and keep looking for troubles, but that's pyschopathy you know... A well trained person feels less urges actually, and not more, to get into a fight. Indeed, with the growth of self confidence derived from actual sparring, decreases any need to test one's abilities.

I always remember that story once I read of a heavyweight that at a social gathering was repeatedly and heavily insulted by a guy and yet kept answering gently. Once asked, after that, why he did not react to so much abuse he answered: "once you have been an holder of the WBA belt, you can afford being kind."

Last edited by Alberto_Italiano : 05-22-2012 at 08:36 AM.
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Old 05-22-2012, 09:25 AM   #43
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Arm locks... really???????

I am also of the "kind" variety, even though I run a bodyguard company. So is Hal, even though the US Government made war on him for 30 years, taking everything he owned, attempting to kill him several times, and otherwise harassing him. He carries the knife wounds and bullet holes as souvenires. That is partly why we hooked up. I was fully intrigued by his life and story.

Here was a guy that decided not to kill Castro, came in from the cold, and negotiated a settlement to get out of a type of trade that really doesn't allow for retirement - especially for folks that failed to fulfill their directives.

Now, that is a whole different set of parameters than being a street bully or local tough guy. While I trained with him in the 1990's, he was hit twice by vehicles while riding his bike in Corpus Christi. After being struck, the car load (once it was a van load) of guys exited their vehicle and proceeded to beat him up. In neither case was anyone arrested. His Camper was burglarized - only certain documents were taken. Again, no arrests. And finally, while training at a small dojo, a man walks in wanting to rondori. He literally tries to kill Hal (I wasn't there but was told about it 3 days later) several times. Hal stopped the attacks each time and continued to play by judo rules. After the bout, Hal sensed that the man had a gun in his gear. Hal disappeared, hid, watched the guy exit the dojo, and slept in a field for two days.

Such is the price for forging a path less followed. Indeed, I am currently in Houston and intend to visit this old buddy on Saturday. Cold eyed and kind sums him up. What an anomaly. And master of the arm bar.
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Old 05-22-2012, 10:22 AM   #44
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Arm locks... really???????

For all you BJJ fans,

Here is the 21 grip (2 on 1 grip) strategy from a modified guard. Armbars and grapevine included.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYgOJkxvVdM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhWGOIz4nFk
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Old 05-22-2012, 11:17 AM   #45
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Re: Arm locks... really???????

They are great equalizers Armbars (Arm Locks). It is hard to say how anyone would react in an altercation or even better anticipate how one would be attacked. If available an armbar would get anyone to submit, depending on the situation and if I feared for my life then I would see how far his arm would bend in the opposite direction. Most likely, it would be useless in a multiple attack. If strictly one on one, I would work to get a choke in there.

Does anyone ever "win" in a fight? I suppose victory is in the eye of the beholder.
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Old 05-22-2012, 11:37 AM   #46
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Arm locks... really???????

I think winning is about not getting hurt. Time is your enemy on this front. The longer the fight, the higher probability for injury.

Regarding arm bar. The best way I have seen to train against them is
(1) play for positioning. Positioning trumps all technique.

(2) train the arm. Chain driven weight machines are best. On the old nautilus curl machine, for instance, determine your maximum weight. That means you get muscle failure with one successful curl.
Then notch it down to 40% - especially if you haven't built a weight training foundation. You may want to begin with less. This training can be dangerous as it replicates the execution of a real arm bar upon yourself. It can also make you a bit tight, so get plenty of amino acids and do your yoga.

As you curl the weight up, drop your hands faster than the weights fall, catch them as they fall, and literally throw them back up again. This only works on chain driven machines. Cable machines and some belt machineswill go off track or bust the pulley.

You are training the fast twitch muscles to become instinctually explosive. And, yes, this is in Hal's book on Fight Strength. As I said, his training regimen was a daily attempt at committing suicide.

But, that which does not kill you, makes you stronger. It works.

Last edited by Chris Parkerson : 05-22-2012 at 11:39 AM.
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Old 05-22-2012, 02:06 PM   #47
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Re: Arm locks... really???????

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
I think winning is about not getting hurt. Time is your enemy on this front. The longer the fight, the higher probability for injury.

Regarding arm bar. The best way I have seen to train against them is
(1) play for positioning. Positioning trumps all technique.

(2) train the arm. Chain driven weight machines are best. On the old nautilus curl machine, for instance, determine your maximum weight. That means you get muscle failure with one successful curl.
Then notch it down to 40% - especially if you haven't built a weight training foundation. You may want to begin with less. This training can be dangerous as it replicates the execution of a real arm bar upon yourself. It can also make you a bit tight, so get plenty of amino acids and do your yoga.

As you curl the weight up, drop your hands faster than the weights fall, catch them as they fall, and literally throw them back up again. This only works on chain driven machines. Cable machines and some belt machineswill go off track or bust the pulley.

You are training the fast twitch muscles to become instinctually explosive. And, yes, this is in Hal's book on Fight Strength. As I said, his training regimen was a daily attempt at committing suicide.

But, that which does not kill you, makes you stronger. It works.
This is about the worst advice I have ever heard. Lifting will isolate and stiffen the arm and actually make you easier to lock.
"Tight makes light.....
And easy to fight...."

The way to train the limbs is to connect them to the center. It is the ONLY acceptable method for high level power and skill. Oddly I have rarely seen or met teachers capable of it, and those who can teach (past ridiculous one liners) .....rarer still.
Dan
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Old 05-22-2012, 03:16 PM   #48
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Arm locks... really???????

Hi Dan,

I agree that one must keep the six harmonies intact. Posture and connection is indeed the foundation to all efficient movement.
But it is hard to debate a guy who proved his theories through Judo competition like Hal did. His guns weren't more than 18 " and his weight is and has most always been 165 pounds. Yet, I do not think he ever lost to a juji after the 1970's. He could do isolated dumbbell curls with 100 pounds and did his balistic nautilus curl practice with 100 and more when we trained together.

His theories were about speed-strength. In his mind, he was a quarter horse outmaneuvering Clydesdales. So consider this, you've got position for juji, right as his arm begins to straighten, Hal instinctively could delay the isolation of his arm, use this speed strength to blast his whole body (unified) through your leg position, using (stealing) the force of your own Juji positioning against you.

That was his main tactic when attacked by juji. He entered rather than retreated. He used your energy against you. When he was coaching with Phil Porter at the USJA in Colorado Springs, people pooh poohed his training saying , " aw, that's Hal's stuff". Yet he was might hard to beat.

His record speaks for itself.
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Old 05-22-2012, 03:37 PM   #49
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Arm locks... really???????

An interesting overview of Fight Strength.
http://books.google.com/books/about/...d=MAAlAAAACAAJ
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Old 05-23-2012, 07:09 AM   #50
DH
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Re: Arm locks... really???????

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
Hi Dan,

I agree that one must keep the six harmonies intact. Posture and connection is indeed the foundation to all efficient movement.
But it is hard to debate a guy who proved his theories through Judo competition like Hal did. His guns weren't more than 18 " and his weight is and has most always been 165 pounds. Yet, I do not think he ever lost to a juji after the 1970's. He could do isolated dumbbell curls with 100 pounds and did his balistic nautilus curl practice with 100 and more when we trained together.

His theories were about speed-strength. In his mind, he was a quarter horse outmaneuvering Clydesdales. So consider this, you've got position for juji, right as his arm begins to straighten, Hal instinctively could delay the isolation of his arm, use this speed strength to blast his whole body (unified) through your leg position, using (stealing) the force of your own Juji positioning against you.

That was his main tactic when attacked by juji. He entered rather than retreated. He used your energy against you. When he was coaching with Phil Porter at the USJA in Colorado Springs, people pooh poohed his training saying , " aw, that's Hal's stuff". Yet he was might hard to beat.

His record speaks for itself.
Hello Chris
His record doesn't speak for itself. In a way, no one's fight record does. All a fight recrd does is prove you can fight.
Think of it this way;
Plenty of boxers can "outbox" other guys...you can't use that fight record to say they had a knockout punch.
Plenty of jujutsu guys can out maneuver others....it's doesn't mean they have internal power
And your fella could have a great fight record it doesn't mean his method should be anyone's goal in the martial arts.
Part of the problem we all share is we lack good information and in order to make things work, we opt for modern interpretations as the correct model for the older arts we don't understand. The power and skill of small men over large men (repeated so often in the arts that in itself has become boring) is the legendary power every artists should be after. Every westerner I have ever met simply doesn't have clue how to put that model together and to good use.
Cheers
Dan
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