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Old 05-18-2012, 02:09 AM   #1
Andrew Macdonald
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Arm locks... really???????

in a recent revival of a old thread it was stated by a few people that the most effective technique in a fight is an arm lock. to start of a discussion about that i would like to ask 2 questions

1. when you are in a fight what is your goal? or to put it another way what is a win for you

2. What s the purpose of the arm lock? or at least what comes after?
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Old 05-18-2012, 03:36 AM   #2
Lyle Laizure
 
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Re: Arm locks... really???????

I have used an arm lock once in an altercation. It was strictly for the submission due to the individual I was using it on. It wasn't to "win" so much as to let the individual know that their actions weren't acceptable.

Lyle Laizure
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Old 05-18-2012, 04:49 AM   #3
philipsmith
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Re: Arm locks... really???????

Arm locks in action!

http://www.blinkx.com/watch-video/st...3cJm_4bcS7IwEA
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Old 05-18-2012, 02:31 PM   #4
Michael Varin
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Re: Arm locks... really???????

Philip,

That video is a great example of the importance of arm locks when a weapon is or is likely present (the guard should probably work on his rokkyo a bit, but under the circumstances, hey ).

In that situation, a body lock or a double leg or sticking him with a jab are unlikely to reduce the danger.

While I suppose there could be many answers, it is worth considering why so much focus was put on arm locks in traditional martial arts, arts that grew up around swords, knives, spears, sticks, etc.

So to add to Andrew's intial questions, I suppose we could ask:

What is the context for your fight? Or maybe more fundamental, What is the purpose for the fight?

What is appropriate will vary depending on your answers to those questions.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 05-19-2012, 03:27 AM   #5
Alec Corper
 
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Re: Arm locks... really???????

1. To get home safely and avoid jail
2. To subdue if help is at hand, as a lead into a throw or strike with more disabling power to give time to escape, re number1
My problem is with the use of the word fight. it implies two people squaring off to one another, preceded with verbal posturing, monkey dancing etc. Most of my actual experience in the "real world" are ambushes and sucker punches, or gang fights, catch as catch can, where recovery from shock and surprise are more important than techniques.

If your temper rises withdraw your hand, if your hand rises withdraw your temper.
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Old 05-19-2012, 10:05 AM   #6
Lyle Laizure
 
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Re: Arm locks... really???????

Quote:
Alec Corper wrote: View Post
recovery from shock and surprise are more important than techniques.
Most definately!!

Lyle Laizure
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Deru kugi wa uta reru
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Old 05-19-2012, 11:37 AM   #7
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Re: Arm locks... really???????

In any "fight" my goal is always the same, to end the "fight" quickly and in the least destructive manner possible. But as Michael Varin brings up, a "fight" could be a lot of things. The methods I use to end the "fight" will very greatly depending on what kind of "fight" we are talking about, even though my goal will always be the same.

Arm, wrist, body, or leg, holds, and joint techniques are very useful tools, in some situations they may be the key or ultimate tool. Some times a clever phrase, stern look, or heightened awareness is the the best solution. Sometimes a Firearm, Tank or Fighter Jet might be called for.

You must always, first and foremost consider context when asking what "works" best.

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Old 05-19-2012, 04:28 PM   #8
graham christian
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Re: Arm locks... really???????

I would say the purpose of the armlock is twofold along with any other such things. 1) To disable the other. 2) To put yourself in total control of the other. In other words to disable and remain connected physically and in control.

Thus it would be more useful for club bouncers and doormen, policemen and security people. In situation where the other has to be apprehended, held.

Different situations, different tools.

Peace.G.
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Old 05-19-2012, 07:29 PM   #9
Gorgeous George
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Re: Arm locks... really???????

Quote:
Andrew Macdonald wrote: View Post
in a recent revival of a old thread it was stated by a few people that the most effective technique in a fight is an arm lock. to start of a discussion about that i would like to ask 2 questions

1. when you are in a fight what is your goal? or to put it another way what is a win for you
An interesting real-life situation, well-documented, that might interest you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJX9QnrZtfc

For one-on-one, unarmed violence, i'd favour a strangle: "There are strong arms and strong legs - but no strong necks.".
If somebody's asleep, you've controlled them - safely, and efficiently; with jointlocks, even if you control them, or break their joint, they might still struggle - and no matter what you're on, or how strong you are, physiologically, you can't resist a strangle.
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Old 05-19-2012, 09:05 PM   #10
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Arm locks... really???????

Hey Graham,
Great real life video. The morote gare from a seated position was well executed.
I suspect, from a legal standpoint (criminal code) the ju jitsu man is probably safe. But only due to the majority of supporters' witness statements. But if the cops get hold of this video, he could be arrested for assault. His saving grace is that he was compassionate even in execution.

Stand-your-ground rules for self defense are under attack since the big Trayvon Martin ruckus in
Florida. Senator Charles Schumer is pushing to deny federal funds to states who maintain stand-your-ground laws.

Chokes and strangles are potentially "Deadly Force" in the force continuum. I also think that trained fighters train their necks. I sure did. Most Judo and Jujitsu guys I know have done so to. In such an opponent, rather than untrained ones, arm bars do have a higher combat efficiency value, from my and a few other's perspectives. Hal Von Luebbert actually did a study on this for the army back in the late 1950's. Arm locks (without the koppo) are both effective and compassionate in dealing with unruly folks. Hal developed an excellent kata using the 2 on 1 grip. To test it, he fought his way to the US Internationals just using his kata and took a bronze medal for his efforts.

Again, what a great training video. Thanks.
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Old 05-20-2012, 01:39 AM   #11
TheAikidoka
 
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Re: Arm locks... really???????

Quote:
Alec Corper wrote: View Post
1. To get home safely and avoid jail
2. To subdue if help is at hand, as a lead into a throw or strike with more disabling power to give time to escape, re number1
My problem is with the use of the word fight. it implies two people squaring off to one another, preceded with verbal posturing, monkey dancing etc. Most of my actual experience in the "real world" are ambushes and sucker punches, or gang fights, catch as catch can, where recovery from shock and surprise are more important than techniques.
Well done here Alec, totally agreed, in a real situation, there is not much more you can do. My old teacher used to say train like crazy mad men (controlled you understand), then you can or should be able to fight fairly easily. However, he told us that is not the end of the matter, to remain calm afterwards is far more important (the shock), and keep your awareness, just in case his/her mates comes running up to join in! (zanshin).

He told us being a bar owner himself, he had witnessed people get into fight through no fault of there own, some won their fight, some did not, but always he said, always somebody would loose there mind afterwards. And normally he said it was the person who had won the altercation but did not ask for it, and they would lash out in total confusion. They would inevitably go back for the person who started it in the first place, and even more in a fit of rage and wanting to hurt them and do more damage, because the shock has taken over.

I stayed with my teacher for ten years. Yes arm locks do work or we would not be practicing them, but when and where to apply them is not down to the martial art, It is down to the individual who sees fit use such force as necessary in the first place. And then if it don't work we hear people cry ha that's Aikido for you, well the art does not pick the student, the student picks the Art, so at no point should the art be criticized, because there are also good and not so good Aikidoka.

The purpose of my initial Aikido training was training my awareness, my teacher said without this Aikido is useless. Be aware of a situation developing, then get the hell out of there, use Aikido as the very last resort, well that is what my teacher taught me, for what it`s worth.

Always In friendship,

Andy B
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Old 05-20-2012, 05:06 AM   #12
Alec Corper
 
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Re: Arm locks... really???????

Quote:
Graham Jenkins wrote: View Post
An interesting real-life situation, well-documented, that might interest you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJX9QnrZtfc

For one-on-one, unarmed violence, i'd favour a strangle: "There are strong arms and strong legs - but no strong necks.".
If somebody's asleep, you've controlled them - safely, and efficiently; with jointlocks, even if you control them, or break their joint, they might still struggle - and no matter what you're on, or how strong you are, physiologically, you can't resist a strangle.
First off the guy was drunk and uncoordinated. the takedown was good but really dangerous if you don't know if the guy is armed. that's just my personal take on things, I don't want to go to the ground with the other guy even in a one on one, but them I'm 60 so perhaps that plays a role. i also train sometimes with dull blades and know how fast they can be accessed. Being on top of someone means controlling their hands at all times whilst ensuring they don't bite your face off!
Yes, chokes work but they are potential law suits and they can be misjudged especially with someone on drugs or very hyped up.
i'm reminded of something Paul Vunak once said upon being asked what was the most powerful technique he knew, "A Tai Chi throw", then after a pause, "in the direction of a moving car".
Situational awareness to me means using anything and everything as a weapon or a shield. In confined environments foot traps and bumps into the wall and tables resulting in sprains or contusions allowing for escape are preferable to tying yourself up with arm locks or chokes IMHO.
I appreciated the way the guy in the video remained calm in the face of "the verbals" but there was never any real intent in the assailant, so it made everything a bit easier.

If your temper rises withdraw your hand, if your hand rises withdraw your temper.
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Old 05-20-2012, 06:08 AM   #13
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Arm locks... really???????

We practice things like arm locks in training by setting up conditions that allow us to see the shape, form, and context. At first we will ask such questions as we try and synthesize practice with reality. Over time,if we train properly and long enough....things just start happening and we stop looking for things like using the arm bar. It just happens. We simply move and respond, as the situation develops, we do whatever seems logical....it could be an arm bar.

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Old 05-20-2012, 07:28 AM   #14
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Arm locks... really???????

I appreciate chokes, arm bars, toe holds (leg locks), and back vices.
But when in the street, I end up reverting to Hal's kata. It is simply genius.
It naturally creates
1) angles of cancellation agains counter attacks (especially knives)
2) relentlessly attacks the weakest part of the human body (infraspinatus and teres group (back of shoulder)
3) has an integrated system of moves that always puts you in control, no matter what the opponent does
4) is unique enough (non traditional) to confuse 90 percent of the trained fighters you may encounter.

I am sad he never really tried to take it on the seminar circuit beyon the old USJA tours he did. Judo folks deaf eared it to a large degree - but he proved it to be effective at the US nationals.

I have taught it to corporate security in the US and Mexico. I am 58 years old and seem to revert to it when young bucks test my skills. Putting Aiki into it makes it even better.

Kevin, the day we meet, we should take some time with it. The Marine DT guys at Miramar Naval Air Station loved it. I fear the kata will die out as Hal recourse and as I get feeble.
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Old 05-20-2012, 08:35 AM   #15
Gorgeous George
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Re: Arm locks... really???????

Quote:
Alec Corper wrote: View Post
First off the guy was drunk and uncoordinated. the takedown was good but really dangerous if you don't know if the guy is armed. that's just my personal take on things, I don't want to go to the ground with the other guy even in a one on one, but them I'm 60 so perhaps that plays a role. i also train sometimes with dull blades and know how fast they can be accessed. Being on top of someone means controlling their hands at all times whilst ensuring they don't bite your face off!
Yes, chokes work but they are potential law suits and they can be misjudged especially with someone on drugs or very hyped up.
i'm reminded of something Paul Vunak once said upon being asked what was the most powerful technique he knew, "A Tai Chi throw", then after a pause, "in the direction of a moving car".
Situational awareness to me means using anything and everything as a weapon or a shield. In confined environments foot traps and bumps into the wall and tables resulting in sprains or contusions allowing for escape are preferable to tying yourself up with arm locks or chokes IMHO.
I appreciated the way the guy in the video remained calm in the face of "the verbals" but there was never any real intent in the assailant, so it made everything a bit easier.
From start to finish - takedown to unconsciousness - it was what?: three, four seconds?
While he's going from standing to the ground, he has no chance to pull a knife; when he's on the ground, and Ryan Hall is on his back, Ryan Hall has the ability and opportunity to control either his arms, or neck - hell: he could control all three, if he wanted/needed to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHhezD_qn_8

...plus: even if he did have his arms free, is it really possible to pull a knife, and use it, when someone applies a rear naked choke - particularly one that puts you unconscious what: one, two seconds after application?
Being strangled tends to hamper your motor skills (and trying to pull a knife, rather than counter the strangle is tactically dubious, since you're interested in that aspect).
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Old 05-20-2012, 08:48 AM   #16
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Re: Arm locks... really???????

Ok Graham, don't get your knickers in a twist , I wasn't knocking BJJ, i think it's great. You are quite right, it's hard to access a knife when falling. The first part of the vid showed the guy being held on the ground by gripping his wrists. the choke out came much later. if a guy gets you in a rear naked choke and knows what they are doing you are pretty well screwed, no argument. i simply expressed my responses to the idea of arm bars, and chokes for that matter, as mostly only feasible in one on one, unarmed combat. Emphasis on the word mostly. I know one thing there is nothing that works all of the time on everyone, there are loads of things that work some of the time on some of the people.

"Being strangled tends to hamper your motor skills (and trying to pull a knife, rather than counter the strangle is tactically dubious, since you're interested in that aspect)." True that, but if I had a blade i'd rather go for that than counter first. Of course, it's all a question of timing, position, leverage and awareness. Technique based thinking is a roulette game as far as I am concerned.
regards, Alec

If your temper rises withdraw your hand, if your hand rises withdraw your temper.
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Old 05-20-2012, 08:55 AM   #17
Belt_Up
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Re: Arm locks... really???????

Quote:
when someone applies a rear naked choke - particularly one that puts you unconscious what: one, two seconds after application?
It's more like 10-15 seconds.
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Old 05-20-2012, 09:01 AM   #18
Walter Martindale
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Re: Arm locks... really???????

Quote:
Geoff Byers wrote: View Post
It's more like 10-15 seconds.
Not if you know how to apply it properly.
Getting the choke on may take some time and effort, but if you're in there and crunch it on properly the guy's out pretty quickly.
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Old 05-20-2012, 09:17 AM   #19
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Re: Arm locks... really???????

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22096121, a scientific study, says differently.
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Old 05-20-2012, 10:52 AM   #20
Gorgeous George
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Re: Arm locks... really???????

Quote:
Geoff Byers wrote: View Post
It's more like 10-15 seconds.
YouTube's video timer must be broken, then: it says that from the moment the guy in the video was grabbed, to the next time we see him (unconscious on the floor), took ten seconds - and as at least a few of those weren't spent choking him...

Also:

http://youtu.be/feHKjX5PaCo?t=1m2s

Seven seconds by my count - both times.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSVHg...eature=related

Four seconds...?
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Old 05-20-2012, 10:53 AM   #21
Gorgeous George
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Re: Arm locks... really???????

Quote:
Geoff Byers wrote: View Post
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22096121, a scientific study, says differently.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V83JR2IoI8k&ob=av3e
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Old 05-20-2012, 01:14 PM   #22
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Re: Arm locks... really???????

Lol....small world, I trained with Ryan back in Arlington. Awesome guy with great skills.

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Old 05-20-2012, 02:17 PM   #23
Gorgeous George
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Re: Arm locks... really???????

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Lol....small world, I trained with Ryan back in Arlington. Awesome guy with great skills.
Lucky you.

I love the guy: his instructionals are excellent - really good insight; his deconstruction of techniques, and discussion of fundamental principles, is excellent.
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Old 05-21-2012, 10:24 AM   #24
Walter Martindale
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Re: Arm locks... really???????

Quote:
Geoff Byers wrote: View Post
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22096121, a scientific study, says differently.
The abstract doesn't really say who was doing the choking or how good they are at it. It's a fairly simple technique to apply. Tighten up around the neck and then "make a muscle" - flex all the muscles in the upper body - reduces the amount of space in the gap through which the person's neck (and, obviously, blood flow) are going.

The hard part is getting getting the choke on, to apply, and in a non-rules environment, not getting your eyes and other body parts gouged, bitten, stabbed, grabbed, etc., while you're trying to sink on a "hadaka jime".
In a rules-environment you can take all the time you want, within limits.
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Old 05-21-2012, 10:33 AM   #25
Rob Watson
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Re: Arm locks... really???????

Quote:
Geoff Byers wrote: View Post
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22096121, a scientific study, says differently.
Interested to see what effect increased adrenaline levels would have on these results.

Somewhat to Mr. Martindales query note that only 16 of 24 subject reached ocular fixation so whomever was putting on the vascular restriction was not good enough to get the desired results on all fully compliant subjects. I'd say that is trending on the lesser skilled side of the discussion.

Last edited by Rob Watson : 05-21-2012 at 10:37 AM.

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