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Old 04-09-2012, 12:19 PM   #101
Chris Li
 
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Re: Elbow Power

Quote:
Ahmad Abas wrote: View Post
I've never heard of the assertion that an Aikido practitioner can control an attacker without injury. Yes not withstanding Osensei did his best not to injure guests in his demo, his own students suffered injuries when they failed to take proper ukemi from him.

Good aikido does not force injury on uke. It just returns the amount of force the attacker used in his attack. And if uke cannot do ukemi well, that force may graduate to something that is dangerous as we increase our intensity. Nage's only being nice when he slows down your attack.

Case in point is Ikkyo. There any number of ways to take ukemi from one. But if uke thinks that the choice of ukemi is his, then he'll be in for surprise when someone who really knows his Ikkyo lets go one time. Or better yet iriminage. Everyone things hmm, back fall or flip yeah? Until the guy lets rip and you find him doing a hula hoop with your neck, and your legs are making circles... Or bounces you of the ground and you find yourself flying forwards with your legs in front of you.

In all cases when I find myself unable to choose an ukemi, I just pray that my body would do something right when I hit the mat. It's always a happy feeling to find myself still alive after one of those. But in all those events, never have I felt nage was out to hurt me or throw me. It always felt like I got caught in a whirlwind and was loosed after a time... Does that make sense? The hurricane's not out to get you... You just happen to be on its path.
I don't know where you've been, it's even on Wikipedia, and it even used to be on the Aikikai Hombu home page, before they rewrote their description. Also see the old Koichi Tohei description in "Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere".

Anyway, if the choice it "take ukemi or be injured" then I think that the average person will end up being injured (since they have no idea how to take ukemi). I don't necessarily have a problem with that - but it vastly changes the dynamic. The standard way of training while taking ukemi trains the nage's body to expect a situation that - just doesn't occur.

Best,

Chris

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Old 04-09-2012, 01:18 PM   #102
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Re: Elbow Power

Just a few thoughts here based on my experiences........

Quote:
Ahmad Abas wrote: View Post

Good aikido does not force injury on uke. It just returns the amount of force the attacker used in his attack. And if uke cannot do ukemi well, that force may graduate to something that is dangerous as we increase our intensity. Nage's only being nice when he slows down your attack.
In the cooperative training environment that prevails with most Aikido I think that your idea of good Aikido is the stretch goal.....the ideal..... one that is still way beyond most of us. In a non-training environment the variables are so numerous that the timing of the ensuing events may preclude any idea of "helping" the attacker through it.

Talking injuries, most of those I received in the cooperative training environment came as a result of errors on the part of nage in form, method, understanding the where on the mat, understanding their own bodies and skills and stuff like that. I have had both shoulders separated (minor) with the right one more than once. All of the times because I was loaded up and had no place to go but down....they collapsed, they threw into space to small to land, they shorted me...... I quite taking falls a long time ago....hips, lower back and other areas told me to give it up.

Quote:
In all cases when I find myself unable to choose an ukemi, I just pray that my body would do something right when I hit the mat. It's always a happy feeling to find myself still alive after one of those. But in all those events, never have I felt nage was out to hurt me or throw me. It always felt like I got caught in a whirlwind and was loosed after a time... Does that make sense? The hurricane's not out to get you... You just happen to be on its path.
Way back most ukemi I took in seminar settings was still a cooperative environment for the most part with the instructors teaching....not always with the individuals traveling with they though. There were a couple of these Shihan whose general attitude was one of demand compliance. You always made sure they beat up their personal uke first so you knew what was coming.....then if he got to you,,,you stayed ahead of him enough as to not get hurt and to not make him look bad........

Gary
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Old 04-09-2012, 02:32 PM   #103
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Re: Elbow Power

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
I think that there's a real question as to whether or not that technical ability ever comes to pass (at least in the context of the big throws that are a staple of almost every Aikido dojo) - even the direct students of Ueshiba often mentioned how scary it was to take ukemi for him, and that was in a controlled situation with people who knew how to protect themselves.

OTOH, if people take ukemi instead of being injured - doesn't that condition your body (the thrower) in the wrong way?

Best,

Chris
Bubbling from the old memory banks is a quote (paraphrased) from M. Saito to the point that when aikido is done properly there is no opportunity for ukemi. That leaves only the injury or the kind heart of the aikidoka to permit ukemi. Seems ukemi is a training tool (which requires nages permission to use) to prevent a trail of wrecked partners as opposed to an actual method or unique element of aikido.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

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Old 04-09-2012, 02:42 PM   #104
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Re: Elbow Power

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
Bubbling from the old memory banks is a quote (paraphrased) from M. Saito to the point that when aikido is done properly there is no opportunity for ukemi. That leaves only the injury or the kind heart of the aikidoka to permit ukemi. Seems ukemi is a training tool (which requires nages permission to use) to prevent a trail of wrecked partners as opposed to an actual method or unique element of aikido.
I agree with that - but in that case, isn't it conditioning your body in the wrong way?

Best,

Chris

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Old 04-09-2012, 03:33 PM   #105
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Re: Elbow Power

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
Bubbling from the old memory banks is a quote (paraphrased) from M. Saito to the point that when aikido is done properly there is no opportunity for ukemi. That leaves only the injury or the kind heart of the aikidoka to permit ukemi. Seems ukemi is a training tool (which requires nages permission to use) to prevent a trail of wrecked partners as opposed to an actual method or unique element of aikido.
Wasn't it Saotome who said that no one could throw Tohei?
Wasn't the same thing said about Mochizuki and Shioda and Sugino?
Were they not doing aikido.....when they stopped aikido teachers?
Well...dozens of Japanese and Western Shihan later- I have never met anyone who could throw me or others who train this way.
Perhaps Chris is right, that learning the conditioning we now know many of them trained in, cancels everything out and you sort of just fall down for people because they truly have no ability to throw you. But wait, wait...where did they learn that....where did I learn it? Not by taking Ukemi.

Dan
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Old 04-09-2012, 06:08 PM   #106
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Re: Elbow Power

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Christopher Li wrote: View Post
I agree with that - but in that case, isn't it conditioning your body in the wrong way?

Best,

Chris
You mean taking ukemi as opposed to being left a broken crumpled heap ... I don't think either leads very far.

Being able to have someone with real power throw you and being able to land safely is a pretty handy skill irrespective of its questionable utility in developing real power.

The only skill I've personally ever developed from ukemi is knowing when someone really throws me versus giving it away ... didn't really need much skill for that - but they never would have tried to really throw me unless they knew I could take the fall! Guess I never trained with anyone that didn't care enough about me to throw me without regard for my safety.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

Ultracrepidarianism ... don't.
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Old 04-09-2012, 06:18 PM   #107
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Re: Elbow Power

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Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
You mean taking ukemi as opposed to being left a broken crumpled heap ... I don't think either leads very far.
Either way is not so good for me - but I think that the same really holds true for the nage. It's like punching something that always moves - you're in for a big change when you start in on the heavy bag.

Quote:
Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
Being able to have someone with real power throw you and being able to land safely is a pretty handy skill irrespective of its questionable utility in developing real power.
Nice to have - but is it worth the price for people who aren't really planning to go into that situation?

Best,

Chris

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Old 04-09-2012, 06:40 PM   #108
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Re: Elbow Power

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Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
You mean taking ukemi as opposed to being left a broken crumpled heap ... I don't think either leads very far.

Being able to have someone with real power throw you and being able to land safely is a pretty handy skill irrespective of its questionable utility in developing real power.

The only skill I've personally ever developed from ukemi is knowing when someone really throws me versus giving it away ... didn't really need much skill for that - but they never would have tried to really throw me unless they knew I could take the fall! Guess I never trained with anyone that didn't care enough about me to throw me without regard for my safety.
That's actually a good point Rob. Just remember that many of us do other things as well where that is not a prerequisite. There are many Martial arts where you need to protect yourself. Oddly IMO those people have a tendency to actually get hurt less. Many have agreed on that in the past. To be sure there are positives and negatives in cooperative and non cooperative practices.
Dan
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Old 04-09-2012, 06:42 PM   #109
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Re: Elbow Power

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Not by taking Ukemi.

Dan
Right, no skill in ukemi is required to fall for someone when they can't really throw in the first place. Sempai says ... sensei says ... plain old fashioned conditioning (in the psychological sense like the drooling dogs).

That is why I really like Sunday free practice or after class free practice - no free falls then.

"In my opinion, the time of spreading aikido to the world is finished; now we have to focus on quality." Yamada Yoshimitsu

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Old 04-09-2012, 07:02 PM   #110
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Re: Elbow Power

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Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
Right, no skill in ukemi is required to fall for someone when they can't really throw in the first place. Sempai says ... sensei says ... plain old fashioned conditioning (in the psychological sense like the drooling dogs).

That is why I really like Sunday free practice or after class free practice - no free falls then.
and isn't that how it's supposed to be, internal or external? You progress, you get stronger, you get better and it gets harder for everyone to make those things happen? If you manage to put it all together or uke just isn't strong enough to provide much resistance, how is ukemi NOT the end result? Obviously if you don't put it all together and can't maintain proper control through the technique it stops, you say "ah, almost got you" and you do it again and again and again and again. Uke and nage using the same body training (edit: and sensitivity) to both attack and execute technique, resisting, improving, getting better. A kata based, semi-alive and hopefully internal equivalent to 20 reps on the ab machine, rowing machine and leg machine rolled into one... kinda...

Last edited by chillzATL : 04-09-2012 at 07:04 PM.
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Old 04-09-2012, 07:04 PM   #111
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Re: Elbow Power

I think there is a difference in training goals and methods here.

Quite simply there are quite a few shihans here who will demonstrate that they can't be thrown by the likes of us. That's simple enough, you don't need to be a shihan to not get thrown, anyone can do it. Just don't attack wholeheartedly. Keep something in reserve and you're not likely to be thrown by almost all aikidoka. For them you 'allow' the throw to happen by 'giving' your energy through.

Until of course you seek to learn more than monkey see, monkey do. This is where you learn to connect to uke irrespective of his intention to connect with you. Very difficult and in my mind very special knowledge because if you're training for real encounters you are expecting that attackers have every intent of attacking you.

So if the intent to attack is there, that's good enough. It's sort of between the two extremes mentioned above. That's where most of us should be practicing at. Uke attacks any which way he likes, nage responds in a very general way using the principles learned from kihon waza, I.e. not the techniques per se but what was behind the techniques.

Chris,
Yes I don't mean I haven't come across it. The first book I read, dynamic sphere made it it's selling point, and that's our usual spiel in my first aikido club which was shin shin toitsu based. Early on, that understanding was simple enough to get the message across that aikido is different then other arts. But then as you go deeper, and you learn more, you know that there a whole lot more shades of grey Than there is black and white.

It's just that I don't abide by it, I mean don't believe it. It's not what my Sensei will teach nor what some other sensei's teach at least whom I came across.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 04-09-2012, 07:10 PM   #112
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Re: Elbow Power

Ah..forget it, every time I write something it doesn't really convey what I actually mean to say. There are just too many different concepts at play especially when we are trying to generalize dojo practice, reality practice and active prove me you are right practice.

And I'm not there yet, not close to where I should be to answer all that with full responsibility and conviction. Only representing one dimension, where I personally have felt the after effects and in limited capacity be able to reproduce it. Thus I don't think I can be qualified to answer anything in this discussion.

That's why I'd really just like to meet up one day and train with you guys. So I can feel what you guys are talking about on the mat. Maybe in Hawaii eh when Dan comes around again. I just hope the TSA louts there haven't been reading what I wrote on FB about their exploits.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 04-09-2012, 07:18 PM   #113
Chris Li
 
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Re: Elbow Power

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Ahmad Abas wrote: View Post

That's why I'd really just like to meet up one day and train with you guys. So I can feel what you guys are talking about on the mat. Maybe in Hawaii eh when Dan comes around again. I just hope the TSA louts there haven't been reading what I wrote on FB about their exploits.
We always have a blast! Hope to meet you sometime.

Best,

Chris

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Old 04-09-2012, 07:41 PM   #114
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Re: Elbow Power

Quote:
Ahmad Abas wrote: View Post
I think there is a difference in training goals and methods here.
Quite simply there are quite a few shihans here who will demonstrate that they can't be thrown by the likes of us. That's simple enough, you don't need to be a shihan to not get thrown, anyone can do it. Just don't attack wholeheartedly. Keep something in reserve and you're not likely to be thrown by almost all aikidoka. For them you 'allow' the throw to happen by 'giving' your energy through.
Well sir, I don't mean to be disrespectful but if I or a few others I know, ever commitedly attacked an Aikido Shihan and did not keep something in reserve it would all be over very quickly, and I would not be thrown. Quite honestly I don't think you really understand what is going on here and the amount of shear soft power and aiki that is being discussed. No harm no foul. Where would you ever get to see it?
I think meeting would be a good beginning to establish a dialogue of the potentials that are out there in other sectors that are just now coming back into Aikido. That way you know what we are talking about.

Chris is right. We laugh continually, do not take ourselves too seriously and just have too much fun.

Dan
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Old 04-10-2012, 09:59 AM   #115
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Re: Elbow Power

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Ukemi is bad for your body. Period. Learning it is smart, continuing to taka falls your whole life is not good for your body. It will not teach your aiki. It will not teach you internal power, you do not need to fall down to "feel your teacher" and learn the waza.
You can learn power and aiki and how to use it, without falling down at all. And in the process some of the damage will be reversed through training the body correctly.
I continue to prove all of the above, (and not just talk about it) ...month after month as I meet so many of the damaged teachers and players.

Well, the very nature of the question defines the lack of understanding of what it is we do. Taking lateral loads is nursury school and just one of many benefits of proper training. It is far deeper than that and broaches the topic of the connection between internal strength....and Aiki.
Dan
Interesting. I note that no one has really discussed 'what is elbow power' in this thread.

As a historical tidbit, there is a concept of "hiji no ri" or "elbow power" (perhaps more accurately, 'the principle of the elbow') in Judo. An aquientance of mine (who's trained with both Sam Chin and Akuzawa, as well as being Dan ranked in Tomiki aikido) has mentioned that 'elbow management' is a hot topic in those arts. Considering something like Wing Chun (which seems to have a very interesting way of using the elbows / arms), I think something like this might be a fruitful discussion.

In regards to Ukemi; it's my understanding that certain hard chi-gung exercises involve hitting oneself (lightly!) in order to 'spread the chi'. Actually, if you think about it, something like a side-break fall could serve a similar body conditioning purpose. I also realize that Kuroda has an interesting article on the use of ukemi (or rather, ukimi) and how it relates to his internal training.

In other words, ukemi training (as it is, without turning into bogyo) might serve a good purpose

$0.02

Last edited by bob_stra : 04-10-2012 at 10:03 AM.
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Old 04-10-2012, 10:34 AM   #116
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Re: Elbow Power

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Bob Strahinjevich wrote: View Post
Interesting. I note that no one has really discussed 'what is elbow power' in this thread.

As a historical tidbit, there is a concept of "hiji no ri" or "elbow power" (perhaps more accurately, 'the principle of the elbow') in Judo. An aquientance of mine (who's trained with both Sam Chin and Akuzawa, as well as being Dan ranked in Tomiki aikido) has mentioned that 'elbow management' is a hot topic in those arts. Considering something like Wing Chun (which seems to have a very interesting way of using the elbows / arms), I think something like this might be a fruitful discussion.
Not really
I tried discussing it once and left some descriptions and hints on the table. No one really got it and responded with anything substantial, and to date I haven't seen a real description of;
What it is
How it works
Why it has such a profound meaning in aiki arts

I have no more interesting in arguing about it, so I just do it in person.

Quote:
In regards to Ukemi; it's my understanding that certain hard chi-gung exercises involve hitting oneself (lightly!) in order to 'spread the chi'.
There are some very well respected Internal guys who don't think much of that model and claim it isn't necessary. I think it does and there are ways to incorporate it in training to toughen you without doing damage
Quote:
Actually, if you think about it, something like a side-break fall could serve a similar body conditioning purpose. I also realize that Kuroda has an interesting article on the use of ukemi (or rather, ukimi) and how it relates to his internal training.
In other words, ukemi training (as it is, without turning into bogyo) might serve a good purpose
$0.02
I disagree with Kuroda about a number of things Kuroda does-including his much vaunted weapon work. As I described right here years ago, I later found out it did in fact fail to demonstrate power when put to the test. And yes...I know some big names love his stuff. But those big names don't see what I see and nor can do what I do. And I think he is wrong about Ukemi as well and that can be proved as well.
This is either a deep topic or it isn't, and if it is deep, than it is complex, and if that is the case than there people who have developed certain parts and pieces, and others who are, well, more complete. We are engaging in a process, sometimes a very surprising one, at founding out just who is who. This is far more accepted, even expected, in the Chinese arts more than the Japanese. Sometimes it doesn't make people feel comfortable, but I think that in the end, truth does that. It also leads us into new realizations and understandings in our training that will lead us forward.
Dan
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Old 04-10-2012, 11:03 AM   #117
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Re: Elbow Power

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Not really
I tried discussing it once and left some descriptions and hints on the table. No one really got it and responded with anything substantial, and to date I haven't seen a real description of;
What it is
How it works
Why it has such a profound meaning in aiki arts

I have no more interesting in arguing about it, so I just do it in person.
That's fine. Can you cite the thread; I'd like to read it.

Quote:
There are some very well respected Internal guys who don't think much of that model and claim it isn't necessary. I think it does and there are ways to incorporate it in training to toughen you without doing damage
Well, sure. It represents one of the fundamental differences between 'hard' and 'soft' approaches, right?

I haven't done any in-depth historical study (Chris has maybe), but perhaps ukemi has changed over the lifetime of aikido. It could be conceivable that "slapping as conditioning" was one of the original uses, (bearing in mind that the IS influence into JMA's might not necessarily be via the soft routes)

I think I saw Tohei (?) write that the end result of extensive aikido training is meant to be a pliable, responsive and injury resistant body; something like ukemi could very nicely fit that role if done in moderation. In which case, ukemi is not so much useless as it is fundamental body conditioning.

Quote:
I disagree with Kuroda about a number of things Kuroda does-including his much vaunted weapon work. As I described right here years ago, I later found out it did in fact fail to demonstrate power when put to the test. And yes...I know some big names love his stuff. But those big names don't see what I see and nor can do what I do. And I think he is wrong about Ukemi as well and that can be proved as well.
Well, my understanding is that Kuroda's interest in 'ukimi' (floating body) has some cross over to the kinds of power generation seen in his empty hands work. Certainly, the idea that 'you throw as if you were generating ukemi' isn't new.

Do you dispute the general idea or Kuroda in specific, and why (specifically)?

For reference's sake, here's the essay and video -

Quote:

Pranin: Then it was after that experience that you began training exchanges with Kono Sensei.

Kuroda Sensei: That started about one year after I first met Kono Sensei. At that time my biggest weak point was jujutsu. I just did the movements of the kata sequentially and my uke would take the falls.

However, when I listened to my grandfather's old students talk, they would laugh and tell me this story: "It was during the war and we didn't practice jujutsu very much, but we did do a little. On those occasions, even if we were merely doing kata we thought that it would not be fun to be thrown by girls. So we tried to resist, but we were easily thrown. Then Sensei would say to us, ‘You shouldn't use power!'"

Looking back now, I realize that I trained stiffly, but even still, I was at least conscious of trying to be soft because I saw the soft ukemi [falls] of my seniors. However, no matter how aware of the problem I was, I remained stiff, even though I was trying to be soft and not use power, because my partner and I were both rigid.

Kono Sensei was the one who made me realize that. The difference between being soft and merely not using power is seen when the time comes to try to move and the technique either works or it doesn't. Also, you really have to train seriously over a period of time in order to become soft when not using power. You can't do it all at once.

Kono Sensei showed me several kirikuzushi techniques each time he came to the dojo. In these techniques he allows himself to be grabbed with two hands and I even had him teach them to my students. Later, after hearing my story about my grandfather taking forward falls thirty-six times on the length of one tatami mat, he said that he first began training with the goal of taking two falls.

When he told me this over the phone, following his lead, I began the same training. When I tried at that time it still took about seventy percent of the length of the tatami for me to fall, just as it had until that time. The only hint I had was the words of my grandfather I had heard as a boy. He said, "Roll forward and try to put your head into your crotch!" Is it that easy to put your head into your crotch? Since he was not talking about having a particular degree of body flexibility, I couldn't figure out how to roll.

Once, when I was absent from the dojo, my grandfather became disgusted at the sight of my students doing stiff jujutsu training and he showed them how to roll, saying that they could not even roll properly. On that occasion, it seems that my grandfather, who was dressed in a heavy-quilt garment, happened to take a fall. When I asked my students how he rolled they just said that they didn't know and so I had no clue. All they said was that he needed only a distance of about twelve inches to do the roll.

At that point I gave up on trying to learn this short forward roll. In order to roll forward thirty-six times in the space of one tatami, you almost have to end up in the same place each time you roll. Even though he was an old man and started from a standing position, he rolled in a space of about twelve inches in a way that was impossible to perceive with the eyes.

Kono Sensei, who is not a member of this dojo, was trying to learn this sort of lofty technique and he actually started to train. I remember at that time my eyes being opened too. Also, I think that on that occasion, when my eyes were opened to basic ukemi, I first began to reconsider jujutsu, which had been until then my weak point.

I recorded my progress in this ukemi over a period of time on videotape. I have fond recollections of my improvement. After beginning around the start of May 1988, when I could do two forward rolls, it went quickly: May 26–three times; May 29–four times; May 31–six times. Then, in June, the pace was as follows: June 3–eight times; June 9–twelve times; June 12–eighteen times; June 14–thirty-seven times; June 19–forty-three times. I don't roll in this ukemi. My leg doesn't strike the floor either. I came to understand gradually after I tried to do it.
http://www.dojoofthefourwinds.com/kuroda.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwHX6kR_Se0

Last edited by bob_stra : 04-10-2012 at 11:11 AM.
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Old 04-10-2012, 11:39 AM   #118
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Re: Elbow Power

Hi Bob
I have to run but I will answer later.
FWIW, I was NOT.....NOT... talking about Kuroda's art. All of our arts have good and not so good stuff in them. I was referring to IS and what he does with weapons and jujutsu that I have seen. That is a much more narrow discussion and I don't want people getting the mistaken impression that I think his entire art is no good-please!!. That is most certainly NOT how I feel.
Dan
Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich wrote: View Post
That's fine. Can you cite the thread; I'd like to read it.

Well, sure. It represents one of the fundamental differences between 'hard' and 'soft' approaches, right?

I haven't done any in-depth historical study (Chris has maybe), but perhaps ukemi has changed over the lifetime of aikido. It could be conceivable that "slapping as conditioning" was one of the original uses, (bearing in mind that the IS influence into JMA's might not necessarily be via the soft routes)

I think I saw Tohei (?) write that the end result of extensive aikido training is meant to be a pliable, responsive and injury resistant body; something like ukemi could very nicely fit that role if done in moderation. In which case, ukemi is not so much useless as it is fundamental body conditioning.

Well, my understanding is that Kuroda's interest in 'ukimi' (floating body) has some cross over to the kinds of power generation seen in his empty hands work. Certainly, the idea that 'you throw as if you were generating ukemi' isn't new.

Do you dispute the general idea or Kuroda in specific, and why (specifically)?

For reference's sake, here's the essay and video -

http://www.dojoofthefourwinds.com/kuroda.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwHX6kR_Se0
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Old 04-10-2012, 11:50 AM   #119
bob_stra
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Re: Elbow Power

Sure thing Dan; I look forward to reading your thoughts and replies to questions. It could be a productive exchange.
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Old 04-11-2012, 02:20 AM   #120
tombuchanan
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Re: Elbow Power

Quote:
Bob Strahinjevich wrote: View Post
Interesting. I note that no one has really discussed 'what is elbow power' in this thread.

As a historical tidbit, there is a concept of "hiji no ri" or "elbow power" (perhaps more accurately, 'the principle of the elbow') in Judo. An aquientance of mine (who's trained with both Sam Chin and Akuzawa, as well as being Dan ranked in Tomiki aikido) has mentioned that 'elbow management' is a hot topic in those arts. Considering something like Wing Chun (which seems to have a very interesting way of using the elbows / arms), I think something like this might be a fruitful discussion.

In regards to Ukemi; it's my understanding that certain hard chi-gung exercises involve hitting oneself (lightly!) in order to 'spread the chi'. Actually, if you think about it, something like a side-break fall could serve a similar body conditioning purpose. I also realize that Kuroda has an interesting article on the use of ukemi (or rather, ukimi) and how it relates to his internal training.

In other words, ukemi training (as it is, without turning into bogyo) might serve a good purpose

$0.02
Off (on?) topic, I noticed that I have gotten more out of my training recently by focusing on the elbow and forgetting about the center for a while. Stuff like..

1.) Initiating a movement by pulling down on my sternum/collarbone seems to pull my elbows onto my spine/center. On a good day, this bypasses the shoulder almost completely. The resulting power seems to use the elbow as the focal point.

2.) An added benefit is the ability to more easily dissolve resistance through the elbow - back - hip - foot connection to the ground. I'm not any stronger, I just let their resistance "slide" through to the ground and keep moving forward.

3.) Maintaining a slight tug on the elbows keeps them attached to the spine. Pushing and pulling is subsequently anchored to the frame and results in substantially more force being generated.

4.) Forgetting the hand and initiating movement with the elbow seems to both avoid resistance and allow for an increased range of motion.

5.) Rotating the shoulder and elbow in opposite directions makes #4 just a little easier.

In the context of this thread, what are the objectives of "Elbow Power"? Any examples? Video (i.e., we are trying to do this)?
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Old 04-11-2012, 04:15 AM   #121
Lee Salzman
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Re: Elbow Power

Quote:
Tom Buchanan wrote: View Post
Off (on?) topic, I noticed that I have gotten more out of my training recently by focusing on the elbow and forgetting about the center for a while. Stuff like..

1.) Initiating a movement by pulling down on my sternum/collarbone seems to pull my elbows onto my spine/center. On a good day, this bypasses the shoulder almost completely. The resulting power seems to use the elbow as the focal point.

2.) An added benefit is the ability to more easily dissolve resistance through the elbow - back - hip - foot connection to the ground. I'm not any stronger, I just let their resistance "slide" through to the ground and keep moving forward.

3.) Maintaining a slight tug on the elbows keeps them attached to the spine. Pushing and pulling is subsequently anchored to the frame and results in substantially more force being generated.

4.) Forgetting the hand and initiating movement with the elbow seems to both avoid resistance and allow for an increased range of motion.

5.) Rotating the shoulder and elbow in opposite directions makes #4 just a little easier.

In the context of this thread, what are the objectives of "Elbow Power"? Any examples? Video (i.e., we are trying to do this)?
I think the first thing to establish is: does elbow power really have anything to do with the elbow, in the same sense we might ask does asagao really refer to the practice of gardening or just making funny hand shapes? It would seem they are pointing at larger concepts through suggestive means.
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Old 04-11-2012, 04:31 AM   #122
Abasan
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Re: Elbow Power

I donno, in my mind I don't think that elbow power actually refers to power in the elbows. More like how the elbow is positioned to the body and uke. And how to move it.

I've read shioda's total aikido a couple of times, and I'm not sure if he's talking about the same thing.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 04-11-2012, 04:46 AM   #123
Lee Salzman
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Re: Elbow Power

Quote:
Ahmad Abas wrote: View Post
I donno, in my mind I don't think that elbow power actually refers to power in the elbows. More like how the elbow is positioned to the body and uke. And how to move it.

I've read shioda's total aikido a couple of times, and I'm not sure if he's talking about the same thing.
Wouldn't that be the same fixation, saying that it is not about the power of the elbows, and yet still just saying that if you put your elbow here or there relative to this or that and move it this way it is powerful or not in some way? Could we rather posit knee power? Toe power? Finger power? Knuckle power? Hip bone power? What is so conspicuous about the elbow here that you wish to grant it special status?
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Old 04-11-2012, 09:18 AM   #124
greenapple
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Re: Elbow Power

you might find it interesting about how this well known Wing Chun Master explains the idea or concept of Elbow Power
http://youtu.be/DiUp3gKlJEg
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Old 04-12-2012, 12:19 AM   #125
bob_stra
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Re: Elbow Power

Quote:
Andy Lam wrote: View Post
you might find it interesting about how this well known Wing Chun Master explains the idea or concept of Elbow Power
http://youtu.be/DiUp3gKlJEg
I liked it. As is usual with these clips, there's a lot of 'reading between the lines' that needs to go on. For example, here's another cute one by the same guy. Watch what he does....and compare it to how some of it's translated

I did a quick search here and found this previous thread that discusses elbow power. I think that's pretty congruent to what I've heard and seen elsewhere, though I'm sure there's more to it. I still like this as a cutest example of elbow power, though

Last edited by bob_stra : 04-12-2012 at 12:22 AM.
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